Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:20 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 13  Next

Can science lead us to Spirituality?
Yes 86%  86%  [ 31 ]
No 14%  14%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 36
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:41 am +0000
Posts: 83
r herman,

I am a bit puzzled why the science and cosmology reminds you of that letter by liecrusher. I had never seen that letter before you pointed it out but within a few sentences it became quite apparent not only how bogus it was, but also how idiotic the concepts were within. Why you would even compare the cosmology of the papers with it or even have it remind you of that ridiculous tirade really points to something very strange going on within yourself as you have exhibited in many of your recent posts here. Isn't that right rherman? Isn't that right r herman? LOL

What are you even doing here? and why are you even reading this revelation? Perhaps Oashpe or the Keys of Enoch would be more your speed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 10:33 am +0000
Posts: 746
Bless you Majeston!

You demonstrate the fruits of the spirit so nicely! I'm sure lie crusher felt exactly the same way with the wonderful loving spirit TruthBook members gave him.

You said "I had never seen that letter before you pointed it out but within a few sentences it became quite apparent not only how bogus it was, but also how idiotic the concepts were within."

Those who casually dismiss and debunk the Urantia Papers say exactly the same thing. Congradulations Majeston! You have won the Martin Gardner award of the Year!

I have been a student of the Urantia Papers about five years now. It is in my nature to challenge the things I'm taught. Especially the uninspired parts of TUB. You err in assuming I find no value at all in the Urantia Book or in participating in these discussions.

Here's a quote from part IV paper 156 pg 1739 when Jesus taught at Tyre:

Quote:
You are destined to live a narrow and mean life if you learn to love only those who love you. Human love may indeed be reciprocal, but divine love is outgoing in all its satisfaction-seeking. The less of love in any creature's nature, the greater the love need, and the more does divine love seek to satisfy such need. Love is never self-seeking, and it cannot be self-bestowed. Divine love cannot be self-contained; it must be unselfishly bestowed.


While this may not be scientific, I believe that the teachings of such inspirational quotes as this have GREAT Truth, Meaning, and Value! Don't you Majeston?

Randy

_________________
If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:45 am +0000
Posts: 234
Location: Long Island NY
rhermen wrote:
The more homework I do concerning the science and cosmology presented in TUB, the more I'm reminded of the "letter" lie crusher once posted in the oops thread of the open discussion forum.


Hmmm...The science of automatic writing...hmmm


[url=http://urantiabook.org/archive/history/histumov.htm#activitiespreceding]A History of The Urantia Movement by Dr. Sadler
[/url]
During these early years, all of our observations and investigations utterly failed to reveal the technique of reducing messages to writing.

[url=http://urantiabook.org:5631/highlight/index.html?url=http%3A//urantiabook.org/archive/history/sadler1.htm&fterm=automatic&fterm=writing&fterm=+automatic+writing&la=en&charset=utf-8&search=../query.html%3Fcharset%3Dutf-8%26col%3Dfefsite%26qt%3Dautomatic%2Bwriting]"Were you Deceived?"
Transcript of an interview with Dr. William S. Sadler
by Meredith Sprunger and a group of Ministers
April 27, 1958[/url]

Q. Why the secrecy of the origin? Do all the members of the Brotherhod know about it?

A. No, they do not. Only a very small group knows. The revelatory commission wants no human association with this book. One reason for secrecy. If we told you all we know, you wouldn't be satisfied.

Quote:
What are you even doing here? and why are you even reading this revelation? Perhaps Oashpe or the Keys of Enoch would be more your speed.


Isn't not knowing satisfying? :smile:


Peace.

_________________
Listen for the silence between the sounds...the silence is Thought Adjusted.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:04 pm +0000
Posts: 568
The question about Science possibly leading to Religion:

Paper 101

p1116:7 101:10.6 "Never can there be either scientific or
logical proofs of divinity. Reason alone can never validate the values and goodnesses
of religious experience. But it will always
remain true: Whosoever wills to do the will of God shall comprehend the validity of
spiritual values. This is the nearest approach that can be made on the mortal level to
offering proofs of the reality of
religious experience. Such faith affords the only escape from the mechanical clutch of the
material world and from the error distortion of the incompleteness of the intellectual
world; it is the only discovered solution to the impasse in mortal thinking regarding the
continuing survival
of the individual personality. It is the only passport to completion of reality and to eternity of
ife in a universal creation of
love, law, unity, and progressive Deity attainment. ....

Religion assures man that, in following the gleam of righteousness discernible in his soul, he is thereby
identifying himself
with the plan of the Infinite and the purpose of the Eternal. Such a liberated soul
immediately
begins to feel at home in this new universe, his universe."

.........

It seems Science, at it's best, will not move to the arena of Faith.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 10:33 am +0000
Posts: 746
In my opinion, secrecy equals deception.

Quote:
Q. Why the secrecy of the origin? Do all the members of the Brotherhod know about it?

A. No, they do not. Only a very small group knows. The revelatory commission wants no human association with this book. One reason for secrecy. If we told you all we know, you wouldn't be satisfied.


"If we told you all we know, (then) you wouldn't be satisfied."

Ah yes, the ol' need-to-know mentality. Since we (the Contact Commission) are the experts, we will tell you (the student) what you need-to-know. As a sincere Truth Seeker and student of the Urantia Papers, I reserve the right to decide for myself when I'm satisfied. If the Urantia Brotherhood cannot become authoritarian, then they should not presume to tell others what to believe regarding the origin of the Urantia Papers.

Why do they fear to reveal the truth of the origin of the Urantia Papers? Those who have something to hide always use this manner of sophistry. Truth has nothing to hide and is always satisfying because its available to everyone.

If the True shall set you free, then how can Truth be served by the use of secrecy? It is a historical fact of our world that those who demonstrate the chosen people mentality always seek to enforce their will upon others and justisfy their actions by saying "it is God's Will" that we must hide the Truth under a cloak of secrecy. Such people are never liberated, but imprisoned by a need for secrecy and a need to control others to prove they're right. Such people seek to imprison others by taking away the right to choose from those they claim to serve because they fear to lose their authority.

On the flip side of this concept, those who really do have a personal relationship with GOD have no need to prove it. Such people will subconsciously and even unconsciously demonstrate the fruits of the spirit without calling attention to themselves. Such a liberated soul gives unconditional love without expecting anything in return. Such a liberated soul has found an inner source of FAITH which transcends any need for secrecy or a need to control others. Such liberated souls give others the freedom to decide for themselves.

_________________
If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


Last edited by rhermen on Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:04 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:16 pm +0000
Posts: 424
Location: Chicopee, MA
Randy,

I think if you research all available material about the how of the materialization of the revelation you will find that there is no known explanation. It really is a mystery. The revelatory comission was not keeping a secret. They simply could not explain it. Have you read the bit about the safe depisit box and the questions?

Bill,
Faith son

_________________
Read the Urantia Papers. Read them again!
Image

http://billurantia3.bravehost.com//welc ... ALITY.html


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 10:33 am +0000
Posts: 746
Bill,

The scientist in me believes there is always an explanation. Mystery equals superstition.

Randy

_________________
If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:04 pm +0000
Posts: 568
...
Here is an explanation that has satisfied me to an extent.

Issac Newton said (in the early 1700's)

"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been
only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding
a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay
all undiscovered before me."

This dude is one of the all-time smart birds of science. Yet, he
did not claim to be able to de-mystify the Universe. He - in his honest
and humble way - confessed to himself and the world that his intellect
could not circumscribe all Reality.

As brilliant as he was, some of Newton's facts have not held up
as "facts" in today's science.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 10:33 am +0000
Posts: 746
Yes, many of the "founding fathers" of scientific understanding, such as Newton and Einstein, are being taken to task in the halls of modern academia. It is the nature of science, due to the adherence of the scientific method, to be self-correcting. This process is admittedly slow, carefull, and conservative. It is quite often brutally abusive frought with sarcasm, ridicule, insult and ad-hominem attacks. Individual scientists have even been sold out to the highest bidder to gain research grant money. None-the-less, the scientific method remains dedicated to discovering the Truth of how the universe workd from an admittedly bottom to the top perspective. It may be said that scientists have great faith in the scientific method. As someone who is about to embark on a new and more challenging level in his academic career as a physics major in a fully accredited university, I will experience these things firsthand.

So (FB2) when I read the quote you have brought forth from pg 1116-7:

Quote:
Never can there be either scientific or logical proofs of divinity. Reason alone can never validate the values and goodnesses of religious experience. But it will always remain true: Whosoever wills to do the will of God shall comprehend the validity of spiritual values. This is the nearest approach that can be made on the mortal level to offering proofs of the reality of religious experience. Such faith affords the only escape from the mechanical clutch of the material world and from the error distortion of the incompleteness of the intellectual world; it is the only discovered solution to the impasse in mortal thinking regarding the continuing survival of the individual personality. It is the only passport to completion of reality and to eternity of life in a universal creation of love, law, unity, and progressive Deity attainment.

absolute statements such as "never" and "always" tend to leave me cold because this revelation is supposed to "transiently clarify knowledge."

Whereas statements like "this is the nearest approach that can be made on the mortal level to offering proofs of the reality of religious experience" can be used by scientists as a hypothesis to actively measure the effects the Urantia Book has on believers of the FER.

Somewhat before pg 1116-7, we have a quote from pg 1115:

Quote:
Faith has falsified its trust when it presumes to deny realities and to confer upon its devotees assumed knowledge. Faith is a traitor when it fosters betrayal of intellectual integrity and belittles loyalty to supreme values and divine ideals. Faith never shuns the problem-solving duty of mortal living. Living faith does not foster bigotry, persecution, or intolerance.

Faith does not shackle the creative imagination, neither does it maintain an unreasoning prejudice toward the discoveries of scientific investigation. Faith vitalizes religion and constrains the religionist heroically to live the golden rule. The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.


I cannot help but apply each one of these assertions to the Fifth Epochal Revelation and students of same. Not with the intent of judging the individual, but as a scientific investigation into the reality of religious experience. For this reason, I investigate many different opinions of the issue; especially regarding the science and cosmology presented in TUB and to a lesser extent the origins of the Urantia Papers.

_________________
If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:37 pm +0000
Posts: 193
Location: St. Francisville, LA
Randy,

Surely you might entertain more allowance for the value of necessary secrets and the inevitability of unfathomable mysteries than your recent posts imply:
Quote:
In my opinion, secrecy equals deception...how can Truth be served by the use of secrecy? ... Such people seek to imprison others by taking away the right to choose from those they claim to serve because they fear to lose their authority. (Randy)

Quote:
The scientist in me believes there is always an explanation. Mystery equals superstition.(Randy)

It appears that the revelators (including Perfectors of Wisdom), in many instances and for various reasons, have maintained the legitimacy of such seeming ambiguities all the way to Paradise. We could surmise that there are reasons beyond obfuscation and control for their employment.

A quote that could apply to the secrecy of origin question is from Paper 18:
Quote:
...it is fitting that these very personal relations and extraordinary contacts should be held sacredly secret. The Paradise Creators respect the privacy and sanctity of personality even in their lowly creatures.

At any rate, I did enjoy some other reading prompted by your concerns, including:
Quote:
It is highly probable that those truths pertaining to Divinington which are withheld from me, if revealed, would merely confuse and handicap me in my present work, and still again, perhaps they are beyond the conceptual capacity of my order of being.

(and:)
Quote:
The Paradise worlds of the Father are directed by the highest order of the Stationary Sons of the Trinity, the Trinitized Secrets of Supremacy...
The secrets of Divinington... The secrets of Sonarington... The secrets of Spiritington... The secrets of Vicegerington... The secrets of Solitarington... The secrets of Seraphington... The secrets of Ascendington
[Presented by a Perfector of Wisdom commissioned thus to function by the Ancients of Days on Uversa.] UP 13

Chop wood, carry water,
His Peace upon us,
Michael Melody

_________________
" the sons of God are the human stones which constitute this living temple of sonship"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:04 pm +0000
Posts: 568
Re the Urantia Book and 'secrets,' these are ways I look at it:

Example 1:

A school board decides that sex should not be discussed until
age ___. Therefore questions in class, should they arise, should be
diverted - and not answered directly until Grade Level ___.

This is according to the wisdom of adults who have responsibility
of educating the youth.

Example 2:

A young lady of 20 is always asking her parents, uncles, aunts, and
other adults to confide in her regarding some matters. This nice
young lady is a true "blabber mouth" who tells all. The older adults
love her, but accept that she cannot "hold a secret." They steadfastly
refuse to share "special things" with her.

Example 3:

A seven year old boy believes George Washington is practically perfect.
For his development, he needs to have a few such heroes. At age
16, he wonders if Washington was really perfect. As a college freshman,
a history professor points out flaws in Washington's character.
By age 30, he sees Washington as 'just another dude.' At age 50 - he then
a history buff - concludes that Washington was not a perfect person, but
that he was an extraordinary man. One in a million. Perhaps in tens
of millions. Newer and HIGHER vistas and perspectives as the soul
matured........


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 10:33 am +0000
Posts: 746
Urantiavista,

You seem to be attempting the Post Hoc Ad Hoc logical fallacy as justification for the necessity of keeping secret the origin of the Urantia Papers. OK, let's say that the Urantia Papers did materialize in a completely enclosed and locked safe printed in a manner which could not be duplicated by technology of that era. Do you take this as "proof" of divine origin? Or could this mystery be evidence of advanced technology not understood at the time. Considering that a few atoms of hydrogen have supposedly been successfully transported across a short distance in a few laboratories in our modern world by advanced techology utilizing carefull application of advanced understanding of quantum mechanics, who can say what technology of seven hundred years hence might accomplish? I certainly don't know. But I do find the concept of a temporal feedback loop to be extremely interesting. If it were possible to go back 700 yrs into our past, say the year 1307, what do you suppose (in a hypothetical question) that someone of that era would make of technology we almost take for granted today? Would they consider it the result of technology or would they consider it "proof" of divine contact? Or would they consider it "the work of the Devil?" Such is the premise of many sci-fi novels to be sure.

Randy

_________________
If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


Last edited by rhermen on Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:49 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:07 pm +0000
Posts: 654
Location: northern Illinois
Randy... sometimes I think you are the only Truthbook member with a room named after him. :-)

In those circumstances where logic and reason do not apply?

Faith.

_________________
May the God you believe in bless your life. May the life you live be a blessing to those who know you.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 10:33 am +0000
Posts: 746
Why thanks Tramp Swam!

I must say that I also find the concept of technology which is capable of planting suggestions in the human mind by utilizing the proper frequency to be just as fascinating as a temporal feedback loop!

A hypothetical question: could the subject under the influence of this purported technology mistakenly confuse the influence as "faith" ? I don't know. But if one accepts the premise that the observer can't be the thing observed, then such would make for an incredible scientific experiment, wouldn't it? It is unfortunate, but true, that scientists often do not ask permission to experiment on their subjects because if the subject knew they were participating in an experiment then said subject would most likely alter its behavior and defeat the purpose of the experiment.

_________________
If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 10:33 am +0000
Posts: 746
Quote:
A seven year old boy believes George Washington is practically perfect.
For his development, he needs to have a few such heroes. At age
16, he wonders if Washington was really perfect. As a college freshman,
a history professor points out flaws in Washington's character.
By age 30, he sees Washington as 'just another dude.' At age 50 - he then
a history buff - concludes that Washington was not a perfect person, but
that he was an extraordinary man. One in a million. Perhaps in tens
of millions. Newer and HIGHER vistas and perspectives as the soul
matured........

fatboy2,

Should I substitute "student of the Urantia Papers" for "seven year old boy" and "The Urantia Book" for "George Washington" ?

Randy

_________________
If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 13  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group