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Can science lead us to Spirituality?
Yes 86%  86%  [ 31 ]
No 14%  14%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 36
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Joer,

Welcome home. You have been missed.

Bill,
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Thanks, Truth Bill! What's new on the science front?

Good to be back!

Bless you and all on this site Bro!

:-)

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Hi Coyote! Good to be back.

Thanks for the good links, brother.

I wonder what skeptics think about Calabress's Statistical Analyses. I mean he says that it proves Superhuman intervention in the writing of TUB.

I don't know if I would go that far. But I would say that based on the data he has presented it proves statistically that those coincidences of predicting scientific discovery in TUB at least prove that it was beyond current human capacity to make as many of those predictions as have been borne out by time.

I wonder if any skeptics can point out the error in Calabresse's data or analysis?


Peace. :-)

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Hey Joer,

I read a book a few years ago that blew me away. It was Brian Greene's Elegant Universe. In it he charts a course through the fundamental forces and minute bits of matter that is contained in all things. To cut to the chase, the String theory postulates that all things are made up of little loops of energy that scientists have coined strings. Here is what paper 42 has to say about the classification of matter:

42:3.2 In the varied suns, planets, and space bodies there are ten grand divisions of matter:

1. 42:3.3 Ultimatonic matter—the prime physical units of material existence, the energy particles which go to make up electrons.
2. 42:3.4 Subelectronic matter—the explosive and repellent stage of the solar supergases.
3. 42:3.5 Electronic matter—the electrical stage of material differentiation—electrons, protons, and various other units entering into the varied constitution of the electronic groups.
4. 42:3.6 Subatomic matter—matter existing extensively in the interior of the hot suns.
5. 42:3.7 Shattered atoms—found in the cooling suns and throughout space.
6. 42:3.8 Ionized matter—individual atoms stripped of their outer (chemically active) electrons by electrical, thermal, or X-ray activities and by solvents.
7. 42:3.9 Atomic matter—the chemical stage of elemental organization, the component units of molecular or visible matter.
8. 42:3.10 The molecular stage of matter—matter as it exists on Urantia in a state of relatively stable materialization under ordinary conditions.
9. 42:3.11 Radioactive matter—the disorganizing tendency and activity of the heavier elements under conditions of moderate heat and diminished gravity pressure.
10. 42:3.12 Collapsed matter—the relatively stationary matter found in the interior of the cold or dead suns. This form of matter is not really stationary; there is still some ultimatonic even electronic activity, but these units are in very close proximity, and their rates of revolution are greatly diminished.

I would like to comment on the ultimaton. Paper 42 states that ultimatonic matter is the prime physical units of material existence, the energy particles that make up the electron. I have a few questions. The UB states that the electron consists of 100 divisible components. The electron is about 1,800 times smaller than the proton. So each individual electron particle or subparticle is extremely small. Are these ultimatons another word for strings of energy? Is this what the UB was trying to tell us or is there some other explanation?

My understanding is that the atom consists of the protons and neutrons in the nucleus and the electron or electrons traveling in various orbits or shells outside of the neutrons and protons. The opposite charges of these minute particles helps to stabilize and keep these arrangements together. The negative charge of the electron and the positive charge of the proton keeps these particles together.

I have also learned that the neutrons and protons are made up of still smaller particles coined quarks. The protons and neutrons are divided up into threes and have varying one third charges. There needs to be energy to hold these quarks together and scientists have termed these energies gluons. These gluons hold these minute quarks together which then we term a proton or a neutron. These energies are part of the four fundamental forces of nature. The atomic world is kept together by the nuclear strong force. There is also the nuclear weak force (decay, radiation), electromagnetism and gravity. The string theory is an attempt to have an explanation for everything. Trying to unite the micro forces of the atomic and subatomic worlds (the quantum world) with the macro forces that holds everything together: gravity.

The actual matter that we see such as stars, planets, asteroids, etc., make up a small part of what the universe consists of. Scientists believe that well over 90 percent of the universe consists of dark energy and dark matter. It seems to me that if there is an ultimaton that it still doesn't account for most of the universe. Whether or not the electron actually consists of 100 divisible parts, I don't know. Would these facts make more sense mathematically? Would some of the missing pieces come into play if the ultimaton is a reality? I'm just thinking out loud people. I'd like to hear what you have to say about this.

Mr. Shakita


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Mr. Shakita, I'll have to get back to you on that.

In the meantime there is a very good article on the science content of TUB compare to recent discoveries right on this site.

Go to the main page and click on:

History, Science and Evolution It has the image of primates evolving into humans on it. Then click on:

Science Content of The Urantia Book — Brotherhood of Man Library

That will bring you to this article:
Science Content of TUB
The Science Content of The Urantia Book


It has some pretty interesting points that it makes about scientific statements in TUB that are later confirmed by more recent discoveries and better calculations.


Editors: Richard Bain, Ken Glasziou, Matt Neibaur, & Frank Wright

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Uncle Bill wrote:
Joer, I've read the material you suggested and seen the beautiful digital image. Pretty amazing stuff.
So, as a species, we may not even know where home is. Neat.
This World of the Cross we are blessed to live on is plum full of mysteries.
I image our exact positioning in the heavens has meaning and value that we are utterly uncapable of grasping as yet.
What thrilling questions we will leave the next generations to consider.


What thrilling questions we will leave the next generations to consider.

The Knowledge Book does more of a discussion and also leaves questions. As Earthlings, we are always searching, and as finite, we can only handle so much.

Yet, as we continue to grow, more is offered to us from the stars. I wrote a brief interpretation on dimensions from the knowledge book. If you wish, you can find it here.

http://www.marmsweb.com/gates/gateintro.html

I tried to the best of my ability to make it simple, yet, it is still full of complexity. I see the UB in this also. It is pretty scientific and does not exclude religion or the Soul.

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Howdy Antwoman. God's blessings be with you.

I took a look at the link. Thank You.
This was an interesting thread on NCR site.
It seems a bit more philosophical in it's endeavors.

Science Constrains Theology?

http://ncrcafe.org/node/1136

It is entitled: An Emergentist Account of the Biosemiotic Categories of Religion from a panentheistic perspective

http://tinyurl.com/2tcas5
http://bellsouthpwp.net/p/e/per-ardua-ad-astra/pansemio.htm

:smile:

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God's blessings to you, Joer.

This is another site where we are introduced to new words, like in the UB.

He started out with the big picture then reduced it to a simpler theme, then graduated it into the big picture again.

I suppose in my link and in the UB, the big picture is to enjoy life. He hinted at that also, where GOD coaxes us forward...

Page 304 What play does for your minds on Earth, worship will do for your perfected Souls on Paradise. The mode of worship on Paradise is utterly beyond mortal comprehension, but the spirit of it you can begin to appreciate even down here on Urantia, for the spirits of the Gods even now indwell you, hover over you, and inspire you to true worship.


Joer wrote:
Howdy Antwoman. God's blessings be with you.

I took a look at the link. Thank You.
This was an interesting thread on NCR site.
It seems a bit more philosophical in it's endeavors.

Science Constrains Theology?

http://ncrcafe.org/node/1136

It is entitled: An Emergentist Account of the Biosemiotic Categories of Religion from a panentheistic perspective

http://tinyurl.com/2tcas5
http://bellsouthpwp.net/p/e/per-ardua-ad-astra/pansemio.htm

:smile:


Concerning science and theology, I see that for the common person, science is largely out of reach and theology can also be out of reach in some respects.

If I base my theological ideas on everyday knowledge, I reach more religions than science. However, I have learned that love is the answer. Universal secrets are revealed to those that love their calling, be it in science or in religion. There are physicists who have made the GOD connection through their studies and application and also mathematicians. However, these are few. These do not constrain theology. More recently, theologians have learned that science reveals the works of GOD with clarity. These also, are few. Because there are a few in both arenas of endeavor, I see that they are the bridge builders between the 2.

my 2 cents

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Antwoman,

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Their are people on both sides science and theology who see the intrinsic value of both. And the comment about loving their calling is perfect. I think those who don't see the connection now, will see it in the future by following that LOVE of their calling.

Thank You antwoman.

Quote:
Universal secrets are revealed to those that love their calling, be it in science or in religion. There are physicists who have made the GOD connection through their studies and application and also mathematicians. However, these are few. These do not constrain theology. More recently, theologians have learned that science reveals the works of GOD with clarity. These also, are few. Because there are a few in both arenas of endeavor, I see that they are the bridge builders between the 2.

my 2 cents


They are the bridge and their ranks are increasing. :smile:

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Joer wrote:
Antwoman,

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Their are people on both sides science and theology who see the intrinsic value of both. And the comment about loving their calling is perfect. I think those who don't see the connection now, will see it in the future by following that LOVE of their calling.

Thank You antwoman.

Quote:
Universal secrets are revealed to those that love their calling, be it in science or in religion. There are physicists who have made the GOD connection through their studies and application and also mathematicians. However, these are few. These do not constrain theology. More recently, theologians have learned that science reveals the works of GOD with clarity. These also, are few. Because there are a few in both arenas of endeavor, I see that they are the bridge builders between the 2.

my 2 cents


They are the bridge and their ranks are increasing. :smile:


I love this, their ranks are increasing.

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Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
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Howdy All. Antwoman, Mr Shakita, I finally got back here. Whew!

I found these looking for a "Science gets along with Religion" post for another site. These seem to back-up this post you made Antwomen:
Quote:
If I base my theological ideas on everyday knowledge, I reach more religions than science. However, I have learned that love is the answer. Universal secrets are revealed to those that love their calling, be it in science or in religion. There are physicists who have made the GOD connection through their studies and application and also mathematicians. However, these are few. These do not constrain theology. More recently, theologians have learned that science reveals the works of GOD with clarity. These also, are few. Because there are a few in both arenas of endeavor, I see that they are the bridge builders between the 2.

P.2078 - §5 Science should do for man materially what religion does for him spiritually: extend the horizon of life and enlarge his personality. True science can have no lasting quarrel with true religion. The "scientific method" is merely an intellectual yardstick wherewith to measure material adventures and physical achievements. But being material and wholly intellectual, it is utterly useless in the evaluation of spiritual realities and religious experiences.

P.2080 - §1 In a high civilization, art humanizes science, while in turn it is spiritualized by true religion--insight into spiritual and eternal values. Art represents the human and time-space evaluation of reality. Religion is the divine embrace of cosmic values and connotes eternal progression in spiritual ascension and expansion. The art of time is dangerous only when it becomes blind to the spirit standards of the divine patterns which eternity reflects as the reality shadows of time. True art is the effective manipulation of the material things of life; religion is the ennobling transformation of the material facts of life, and it never ceases in its spiritual evaluation of art.

P.2081 - §7 To the secularistic revolt you owe the amazing creativity of American industrialism and the unprecedented material progress of Western civilization. And because the secularistic revolt went too far and lost sight of God and true religion, there also followed the unlooked-for harvest of world wars and international unsettledness.

P.2082 - §0 and civil liberties. It was not necessary for the secularists to antagonize true religion in order to promote science and to advance education.

Mr. Shakita, you ask:

Quote:
Are these ultimatons another word for strings of energy? Is this what the UB was trying to tell us or is there some other explanation?

The actual matter that we see such as stars, planets, asteroids, etc., make up a small part of what the universe consists of. Scientists believe that well over 90 percent of the universe consists of dark energy and dark matter. It seems to me that if there is an ultimaton that it still doesn't account for most of the universe. Whether or not the electron actually consists of 100 divisible parts, I don't know. Would these facts make more sense mathematically? Would some of the missing pieces come into play if the ultimaton is a reality? I'm just thinking out loud people. I'd like to hear what you have to say about this.

I like the framework you lay out as a backround for your questions. I don't think we've discovered the ultimaton yet. The basic unit of matter. Niether have we discovered 100 parts of the electron. I don't know if string theory will lead to teh discovery of the ultimaton. But IT WILL lead to the discovery of many NEW Things. Here's a little more from TUB on the ultimaton and forms of energy:

P.474 - §8 2. Ultimatonic rays. The assembly of energy into the minute spheres of the ultimatons occasions vibrations in the content of space which are discernible and measurable. And long before physicists ever discover the ultimaton, they will undoubtedly detect the phenomena of these rays as they shower in upon Urantia. These short and powerful rays represent the initial activity of the ultimatons
P.1155 - §4 7. ...In so far as this relationship is impersonally expressible, it is contacted by the universe as the absolute coherence of pure energy and of pure spirit in the presence of the Universal Father. In so far as this relationship is conceivable as an absolute, it is revealed in the primacy of the First Source and Center; in him we all live and move and have our being, from the creatures of space to the citizens of Paradise; and this is just as true of the master universe as of the infinitesimal ultimaton, just as true of what is to be as of that which is and of what has been.


P.473 - §4 Gravity presence and action is what prevents the appearance of the theoretical absolute zero, for interstellar space does not have the temperature of absolute zero. Throughout all organized space there are gravity-responding energy currents, power circuits, and ultimatonic activities, as well as organizing electronic energies. Practically speaking, space is not empty. Even the atmosphere of Urantia thins out increasingly until at about three thousand miles it begins to shade off into the average space matter in this section of the universe. The most nearly empty space known in Nebadon would yield about one hundred ultimatons--the equivalent of one electron--in each cubic inch. Such scarcity of matter is regarded as practically empty space.

P.474 - §5 In the superuniverse of Orvonton there are one hundred octaves of wave energy. Of these one hundred groups of energy manifestations, sixty-four are wholly or partially recognized on Urantia. The sun's rays constitute four octaves in the superuniverse scale, the visible rays embracing a single octave, number forty-six in this series. The ultraviolet group comes next, while ten octaves up are the X rays, followed by the gamma rays of radium. Thirty-two octaves above the visible light of the sun are the outer-space energy rays so frequently commingled with their associated highly energized minute particles of matter. Next downward from visible sunlight appear the infrared rays, and thirty octaves below are the radio transmission group.

P.476 - §6 The ultimatons, unknown on Urantia, slow down through many phases of physical activity before they attain the revolutionary-energy prerequisites to electronic organization. Ultimatons have three varieties of motion: mutual resistance to cosmic force, individual revolutions of antigravity potential, and the intraelectronic positions of the one hundred mutually interassociated ultimatons.

P.476 - §7 Mutual attraction holds one hundred ultimatons together in the constitution of the electron; and there are never more nor less than one hundred ultimatons in a typical electron. The loss of one or more ultimatons destroys typical electronic identity, thus bringing into existence one of the ten modified forms of the electron.

P.477 - §6 The local universes are of decimal construction. There are just one hundred distinguishable atomic materializations of space-energy in a dual universe; that is the maximum possible organization of matter in Nebadon. These one hundred forms of matter consist of a regular series in which from one to one hundred electrons revolve around a central and relatively compact nucleus. It is this orderly and dependable association of various energies that constitutes matter.

These are a couple of threads by Majeston that I really liked. Check them out.
The radii of the electron and proton.
http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?t=2113

Neutrinos, Neutrons, and Neutron Stars
http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?t=2112

And this one has a little more on string theory.The Bible is not the word of God http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?p=13108&highlight=debatingchristianity+com#13108
Quote:
Who knows perhaps when we find out what the other 7 dimensions of “M” theory are or the proof of the postulation of the graviton and the expected confirmation at the time of completion of the atom smasher in Scandinavia that I believe is 7 times more powerful than our current most powerful smasher, we may find some new esoteric meanings to the GOD theory. Exciting isn’t it. Also there’s the expected discovery of heavy tiny synchronous particles that are counterparts to our known electrons, protons, neutrons etc. I wonder if any of these are comparable to the basic unit of matter? If we find that perhaps we will have another clue to the Great Source and Center. You guessed it GOD.


God's blessings be with you both and the rest of us here.:smile:

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Nice work Joer. I read the links and they too are interesting.

I bought a few DVDs on consciousness and discovered that consciousness is a vital part or even the whole for scientific and religious fidelity. There have been a few conferences on consciousness that attract both scientists and ministers.

It revealed how a single individual can change the world and how this has happened time and time again throughout history. As an example, Elijah magnetized a piece of wood. Jesus and Moses did some things too, as we all know.

It appears that when science fails, the attitude of contempt is in place, such as those who polluted our waters in the 50's and 60's to the point that a river caught on fire.

When science is successful, living in a material society improves: solar light bulbs, hybrid cars, and soon, a perpetual motion generator for vehicles (So I'm told). Some happy discoveries came through the dream mind (carbon atom and Henry Ford's ignition).

I think it's about time we discussed consciousness in today's world. Science has now shown the consciousness effects matter on a subatomic level. With this in mind, it is apparent that we all live our choices, whether or not we are consciously aware of those causes and effects.

Mind has been such a mystery, that we delayed this particular aspect of research. Now that we are becoming more present in our decision making, more people are using Baysian Theory with positive and generally predictable results. We are also learning to live our choices knowing that they are the cause and will be the effects of our efforts. This adds light to the Mosaic and Christian teaching.

We will love the Lord our GOD with all our hearts, all our souls, all our minds and all our strength. This loving power is the key to our development and eventual rise into higher states of being. The exploration of consciousness has revealed that as individuals and as a society. we are choosing how life treats us.

I like to say "GOD is Life". This includes atoms and ideas.

Thank you again, Joer. Peace to you and yours.

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We will love the Lord our GOD with all our hearts, all our souls, all our minds and all our strength. This loving power is the key to our development and eventual rise into higher states of being. The exploration of consciousness has revealed that as individuals and as a society. we are choosing how life treats us.

I like to say "GOD is Life". This includes atoms and ideas.

Your right Antwoman! :smile:
Quote:
Science has now shown the consciousness effects matter on subatomic level.

I read about this in Quantum Physics, how our INTENT can effect particles atomically or sub-atomically. For example if I remember correctly in an array of particles in an electron or an electron array itself I can’t remember exactly, our intent could effect of positive or negative type of switching on and or off effect on cvertain particles. The particle would be moving so fast that instead of the old model on an electron or atom we used to have with an electron in well defined orbits around an atom, The particle is moving so fast that for all our intents and purposes it could be in any place within the valence shell at any one time. And our intent would effect the position of where the particle would appear at a moment of manifestation.

Anyway I don’t remember the details clearly. But I remember it sounds like what your talking about now it this statement:
Quote:
Science has now shown the consciousness effects matter on a subatomic level.

Is that kind of it, Antwoman?
:smile:

May Peace also be the companion of you and your loved ones, Antwoman! :smile:

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Yes, Joer, that is right.

Science has now shown the consciousness effects matter on subatomic level.

We are living in a mass of invisible particle streams and as we continue to pour out love to our environments, these streams of energy respond in kind. Over time, we fill our homes and temples with such a high energy that everything responds to our love.

In a book of higher teachings I read some years ago, "even wild beasts do not attack us nor do insects bother us". The loving power light rays about us become so efficient that we continue in life undisturbed, unburnt and deathless.

Great teachers of all religions have witnessed this aspect of love ever active in their daily lives. Now, we are learning their secrets. Amen. O:)

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Howdy Antwomen, Good to "see" you. :smile: God's blessings be with you.

Quote:
We are living in a mass of invisible particle streams and as we continue to pour out love to our environments, these streams of energy respond in kind.


I like this concept. I can picture being formed of energy in a form of accumulated energy from the sources available and through the processes prescribe by God, in a energy pattern we called a human "being". And then responding in kind, as that divinely personalized energy pattern, with the energy from which we are created according to the divine plan.

And then of course by the power of our free will the way we interact with that eternal and external energy that surrounds us we have the effect of the interaction between our unique energy pattern with that energy with which we are surrounded.

I can't see clearly how that energy will effect us but I can sense that that effect will be present.

I assume that effect could be positive and negative and to different degrees. And I imagine the more we strive to do God's Will there more we will be in sync with that energy that surrounds us and the more positive the interaction of our inner and outer energy will be in making each other (our pattern and the external pattern) stronger and in balance.

Kind of like tuning up a car so that when it runs (using the processes and energy sources available to it) the stronger and better it functions. So to as we tune our spiritual and physical beings into sync (tune) with the energy sources and processes available to them, our physical and spiritual beings become as strong as they can be for the condition that they are in.

Does that sound about right conceptually, Antwoman?

I'm going to see if I can find some more in TUB that may elucidate a little more, on those concepts, of our energy make-up in our human form and it's interaction with the energy that surrounds or streams in on us.

Here's a couple of TUB excerpts that seem to support what I was saying about energy being the make-up of Deity provided patterns. I still need to find some on the interaction between patterned energy and the energy that premeates the universes.

VI. ENERGY AND PATTERN - P.9
P.10 - §3 Pattern may configure energy, but it does not control it. Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter. Neither space nor pattern are gravity responsive, but there is no relationship between space and pattern; space is neither pattern nor potential pattern. Pattern is a configuration of reality which has already paid all gravity debt; the reality of any pattern consists of its energies, its mind, spirit, or material components.

We are the reality of the God given pattern for human beings.

P.10 - §4 In contrast to the aspect of the total, pattern discloses the individual aspect of energy and of personality. Personality or identity forms are patterns resultant from energy (physical, spiritual, or mindal) but are not inherent therein. That quality of energy or of personality by virtue of which pattern is caused to appear may be attributed to God--Deity--to Paradise force endowment, to the coexistence of personality and power.

That's us, human beings, and every other deity personalized patterned
energy form.


P.53 - §5 The infinite and eternal Ruler of the universe of universes is power, form, energy, process, pattern, principle, presence, and idealized reality. But he is more; he is personal; he exercises a sovereign will, experiences self-consciousness of divinity, executes the mandates of a creative mind, pursues the satisfaction of the realization of an eternal purpose, and manifests a Father's love and affection for his universe children. And all these more personal traits of the Father can be better understood by observing them as they were revealed in the bestowal life of Michael, your Creator Son, while he was incarnated on Urantia.

Man we sure are lucky Jesus choose us for His mission! :smile:

Bless you Antwoman. Peace be with you. :smile:

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