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If The Urantia Book is true, then where are the Celestials? Why don't they land in the parking lot of the United Nations headquarters and show themselves to the whole world? It seems a little too convenient that they can't do that because our planet is under quarantine.


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Hmmm.... If the book is false, then where are all the Celestials? What has the UB got to do with the question?

First of all, we are not gathered here to prove, validate, or declare our beliefs about the claims of the Urantia Papers. We are here to discover and study those Papers and to share our understanding and appreciation of the contents of and reality perspective in the UB and to compare and contrast our own reality perspectives to those. Many here also like to compare and contrast other books and beliefs and teachings from a wide variety of sources to the UB as well.

This is a study group. Not a belief group. We are a group of religionists but this is not a church or religion either. We do not share ceremonies or doctrines or creeds or specific beliefs. Some here have come to believe the claims of the UB authors. But many, probably most, merely appreciate truth and are truth seekers who find the UB unique and illuminating and enlightening and inspiring to their own faith experience and reality perspective.

No one here claims or teaches (or even believes, I hope) that any student here needs to believe anything specific about anything at all.... including the Urantia Papers. Not the point of the group. Have you read the Guidelines here? Very descriptive and specific!

Indeed this leads to one of the most specific and redundant and eloquent and enlightening and unique of all the teachings in the UB!! Our beliefs do not determine or define our faith or religious experience. There are no specific beliefs or knowledge required for a most successful religious experience and our personal salvation and soul survival and eternal adventure!! But wait.... there's more!!! Inaccurate beliefs and false beliefs cannot prevent nor preclude a most awesome and successful personal religious experience either!! So... ignorance, confusion, doubt, disbelief, inaccurate beliefs, etc. cannot and do not prevent idealism, hope, morality, truth, beauty, goodness, or love from being experienced by the mortal mind. We are all and each connected to Deity by mind and our response to that connection has both conscious and unconscious results.

This is not to say that knowledge and truth and facts and wisdom are not important to our ascension career and our spiritual growth and journey. Certainly are those experientially important and fruitful. But still it is thrilling to discover that children and barbarians and primitives and the uneducated and doubtful and foolish and those plagued by falsehood and myth and superstition.... ALL mortals are having a personal religious experience that does not depend upon the accuracy of knowledge or belief. What an important and wonderful truth. It is a personal belief I came to hold before finding the UB... as a Jesusonian Taoist! But I am so grateful for the reality perspective provided by the UB about this and so many other realities related to the pilgrim's path to Paradise!

8)

Now... on to your question!

urantiangirl wrote:
If The Urantia Book is true, then where are the Celestials? Why don't they land in the parking lot of the United Nations headquarters and show themselves to the whole world? It seems a little too convenient that they can't do that because our planet is under quarantine.


Me here: According to the UB, experiential wisdom is acquired by the evolutionary method. The adventures of time by the children of time are quite specific in their purpose and plan and method and result!! A large portion of the Papers describes those in great detail for those who are interested.

Keyword searches for study:

"Evolution": https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

"Evolutionary": https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

"Experiential": https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

"Wisdom": https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

In the fullness of time and eternity, there are two forms of reality and wisdom - perfect and perfecting. The first is created and existential. The second is experiential. There is existential Deity and there is experiential Deity. And there is existential realities and there are experiential realities.

The worlds on which the children of time are born and originate are material and evolutionary worlds. All of time and space is likewise evolutionary. Celestials in time are evolutionary. Stars and material worlds are the result of evolution. So is humankind likewise the result of evolutionary plans and designs and results. But so is society and culture and religion and politics and science and philosophy. All of time is an evolutionary reality according to the UB.

There is plenty of evidence as well as reason and logic to support such a perspective and claim. Can we not verify the evolution of humans and social structures and progress in science and religion and culture???

But this world is not the end of evolutionary forces and results. It is only the very beginning!!

Here's a long discussion about Evolution here at TruthBook: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5584

And "Experiential Wisdom": viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5693

8)

Your question about where are the celestials really begins with Does God Exist doesn't it? Surely you don't think God to be alone and isolated in the universe of universes do you? Except for us mortals?? Hahaha.

Your question is really about proof of God, and celestials, but not proof of the Urantia Book. If God exists, do angels and other celestials exist? If so, then who cares what the UB says, where are they? According to anybody or any book?

The Papers offer a wondrous and thrilling and inspiring perspective on the trillions upon trillions of mortals and angels and universes filled with life and beings all engaged in a grand adventure of discovery and growth and creation and perfecting and achievement!!!! It's a glorious portrayal of universe reality.

We are here to discover and appreciate that perspective.... but not to prove it to anyone.

The UB teaches that God can only be proven to oneself by our experience of connection to and relationship with God. I have found that claim to be truthful. So no one can offer you the proofs that you demand. Only your own religious experience can do that.

Well, at least according to the UB.... but who might prove it????

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:16 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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We are taught in the UB to share our hopes and trust and fruits of the Spirit with others. We are not taught to impose our beliefs or to prove God's existence or our own spirituality or religious experience to others. We are also told to seek that same light of hope and trust and faith in others without judging their beliefs or demanding their agreements. Good advice I think... and have found to be so!

I hope folks find the text posted below to be helpful in understanding the topic related to the contents of the UB.

As to the differences between faith and beliefs:

1:2.7 (24.5) The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.

1:2.8 (24.6) Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father.

8)

101:2.8 (1106.7) Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion, logic the proof of philosophy, but revelation is validated only by human experience. Science yields knowledge; religion yields happiness; philosophy yields unity; revelation confirms the experiential harmony of this triune approach to universal reality.

8)

8. Faith and Belief

101:8.1 (1114.5) Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the mode of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.

101:8.2 (1114.6) Belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. But living religious faith is more than the association of noble beliefs; it is more than an exalted system of philosophy; it is a living experience concerned with spiritual meanings, divine ideals, and supreme values; it is God-knowing and man-serving. Beliefs may become group possessions, but faith must be personal. Theologic beliefs can be suggested to a group, but faith can rise up only in the heart of the individual religionist.

101:8.3 (1114.7) Faith has falsified its trust when it presumes to deny realities and to confer upon its devotees assumed knowledge. Faith is a traitor when it fosters betrayal of intellectual integrity and belittles loyalty to supreme values and divine ideals. Faith never shuns the problem-solving duty of mortal living. Living faith does not foster bigotry, persecution, or intolerance.

101:8.4 (1115.1) Faith does not shackle the creative imagination, neither does it maintain an unreasoning prejudice toward the discoveries of scientific investigation. Faith vitalizes religion and constrains the religionist heroically to live the golden rule. The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.

8)

101:9.2 (1115.3) When you presume to sit in critical judgment on the primitive religion of man (or on the religion of primitive man), you should remember to judge such savages and to evaluate their religious experience in accordance with their enlightenment and status of conscience. Do not make the mistake of judging another’s religion by your own standards of knowledge and truth.

101:9.3 (1115.4) True religion is that sublime and profound conviction within the soul which compellingly admonishes man that it would be wrong for him not to believe in those morontial realities which constitute his highest ethical and moral concepts, his highest interpretation of life’s greatest values and the universe’s deepest realities. And such a religion is simply the experience of yielding intellectual loyalty to the highest dictates of spiritual consciousness.


8)

101:9.6 (1115.7) Though recognizing that religion is imperfect, there are at least two practical manifestations of its nature and function:

101:9.7 (1115.8) 1. The spiritual urge and philosophic pressure of religion tend to cause man to project his estimation of moral values directly outward into the affairs of his fellows—the ethical reaction of religion.

101:9.8 (1115.9) 2. Religion creates for the human mind a spiritualized consciousness of divine reality based on, and by faith derived from, antecedent concepts of moral values and co-ordinated with superimposed concepts of spiritual values. Religion thereby becomes a censor of mortal affairs, a form of glorified moral trust and confidence in reality, the enhanced realities of time and the more enduring realities of eternity.

101:9.9 (1116.1) Faith becomes the connection between moral consciousness and the spiritual concept of enduring reality. Religion becomes the avenue of man’s escape from the material limitations of the temporal and natural world to the supernal realities of the eternal and spiritual world by and through the technique of salvation, the progressive morontia transformation.

101:10.5 (1116.6) The purpose of religion is not to satisfy curiosity about God but rather to afford intellectual constancy and philosophic security, to stabilize and enrich human living by blending the mortal with the divine, the partial with the perfect, man and God. It is through religious experience that man’s concepts of ideality are endowed with reality.

101:10.6 (1116.7) Never can there be either scientific or logical proofs of divinity. Reason alone can never validate the values and goodnesses of religious experience. But it will always remain true: Whosoever wills to do the will of God shall comprehend the validity of spiritual values. This is the nearest approach that can be made on the mortal level to offering proofs of the reality of religious experience. Such faith affords the only escape from the mechanical clutch of the material world and from the error distortion of the incompleteness of the intellectual world; it is the only discovered solution to the impasse in mortal thinking regarding the continuing survival of the individual personality. It is the only passport to completion of reality and to eternity of life in a universal creation of love, law, unity, and progressive Deity attainment.

101:10.7 (1117.1) Religion effectually cures man’s sense of idealistic isolation or spiritual loneliness; it enfranchises the believer as a son of God, a citizen of a new and meaningful universe. Religion assures man that, in following the gleam of righteousness discernible in his soul, he is thereby identifying himself with the plan of the Infinite and the purpose of the Eternal. Such a liberated soul immediately begins to feel at home in this new universe, his universe.

8)

102:1.5 (1119.4) God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality. Always will we know him because we trust him, and our belief in him is wholly based on our personal participation in the divine manifestations of his infinite reality.

102:1.6 (1119.5) The indwelling Thought Adjuster unfailingly arouses in man’s soul a true and searching hunger for perfection together with a far-reaching curiosity which can be adequately satisfied only by communion with God, the divine source of that Adjuster. The hungry soul of man refuses to be satisfied with anything less than the personal realization of the living God. Whatever more God may be than a high and perfect moral personality, he cannot, in our hungry and finite concept, be anything less.

8)

102:3.2 (1121.4) Religious speculation is inevitable but always detrimental; speculation invariably falsifies its object. Speculation tends to translate religion into something material or humanistic, and thus, while directly interfering with the clarity of logical thought, it indirectly causes religion to appear as a function of the temporal world, the very world with which it should everlastingly stand in contrast. Therefore will religion always be characterized by paradoxes, the paradoxes resulting from the absence of the experiential connection between the material and the spiritual levels of the universe—morontia mota, the superphilosophic sensitivity for truth discernment and unity perception.

102:3.3 (1121.5) Material feelings, human emotions, lead directly to material actions, selfish acts. Religious insights, spiritual motivations, lead directly to religious actions, unselfish acts of social service and altruistic benevolence.

102:3.4 (1121.6) Religious desire is the hunger quest for divine reality. Religious experience is the realization of the consciousness of having found God. And when a human being does find God, there is experienced within the soul of that being such an indescribable restlessness of triumph in discovery that he is impelled to seek loving service-contact with his less illuminated fellows, not to disclose that he has found God, but rather to allow the overflow of the welling-up of eternal goodness within his own soul to refresh and ennoble his fellows. Real religion leads to increased social service.


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In other words, you feel intimidated by my questions and would like me to just shut up, even if they are posted in the Skeptic's Corner. If your confidence in the truth of The Urantia Book is shaken by my inquiries, then perhaps you should stop answering them. I'm not here to be your echo chamber. If that is too much for you to handle, then I will do you a favor and ignore every one of your posts here from this point on. In fact, I am just going to add you to my foes list now.

Have a nice day. :biggrin:


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urantiangirl wrote:
In other words, you feel intimidated by my questions and would like me to just shut up, even if they are posted in the Skeptic's Corner. If your confidence in the truth of The Urantia Book is shaken by my inquiries, then perhaps you should stop answering them. I'm not here to be your echo chamber. If that is too much for you to handle, then I will do you a favor and ignore every one of your posts here from this point on. In fact, I am just going to add you to my foes list now.

Have a nice day. :biggrin:


Hahaha.... I don't feel intimidated at all urantiangirl. I welcome your questions, comments, and topics of discussion and discovery. No worries. And my faith in truth or God or the UB are not so quickly or easily shaken. Fear not Sister.

I am doing the best I can to directly address your questions.

My response point was simple enough. If God exists there are celestials according to every faith and religion I know of. So where are the celestials?? What has the UB have to do with the question?? Where are the Buddhist, Hindu, and Christian celestials?? What exactly are you skeptical about I wonder? There simply are no proofs of God, celestials, or the UB.

The UB offers a universe reality perspective which clearly explains who and where the celestials are. You want proof of celestials? Or God? Or the UB? For there is no proof of any of those to offer.

Feel free to ignore or respond to whomever and whatever you wish. I hope only for your continued progress along the pilgrim's path to Paradise.

I thought with your first post you were glad for UB insights and text which inspired joy and illumination of the friendly universe and very positive reality perspective found there. But since then you seem more disgruntled and disenchanted with the Papers. An unfortunate turn. I have no wish to be adversarial.

Best wishes in all regards as you seek truth and the assurance of truth.

Bradly 8)


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urantiangirl wrote:
If The Urantia Book is true, then where are the Celestials? Why don't they land in the parking lot of the United Nations headquarters and show themselves to the whole world? It seems a little too convenient that they can't do that because our planet is under quarantine.


Actually there is no such claim in the UB regarding either the presence or visibility of celestials. Like all other inhabited worlds in time and space Urantia enjoys the ministry of many millions or billions of celestials. Their visibility or invisibility has nothing at all to do with any quarantine. Text reference please?

It is interesting to note that, according to the Papers, there are spirit beings that are also invisible to some of those celestials invisible to mortals. The visibility of beings is related to the levels of spiritization by different beings (as I recall). Angels and many other celestials will become visible to mortals on the Mansion Worlds.

48:2.26 (545.1) All morontia transition realms are accessible alike to material and spirit beings. As morontia progressors you will remain in full contact with the material world and with material personalities, while you will increasingly discern and fraternize with spirit beings; and by the time of departure from the morontia regime, you will have seen all orders of spirits with the exception of a few of the higher types, such as Solitary Messengers.

8)


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If you need “proof” of the presence of spiritual beings you will deprive yourself of the exercise of faith and the experience of faith justified, sometime in your future. The open appearance of spirit beings to all Urantians seems a long way off. In our present condition it could do more harm than good.

For myself, I am happy that I have never met a spirit personality “face-to-face”. Yet I know they exist, because my life is too full of amazing “coincidences" for them not to be.


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