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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Compare the quality of the actual representations of distinct individual personalities found in tUB, to other channelled works, and you can see the the originality and the quality of counsel is not the same.


I agree. I've read many so-called channeled works and they cannot compare in any way to "the originality and the quality" of the Fifth Epochal Revelation which suggests an entirely different method was used. Most of the time I find those faux works illogical and thus not meaningful at all. Again, when it comes to truth, the method of its appearance is not as important to me as its results. Someday people will learn to realize that.

(1949.6) 180:5.4 The true child of universe insight looks for the living Spirit of Truth in every wise saying. The God-knowing individual is constantly elevating wisdom to the living-truth levels of divine attainment; the spiritually unprogressive soul is all the while dragging the living truth down to the dead levels of wisdom and to the domain of mere exalted knowledge.


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Yes...."so called" or alleged or claimed are good descriptors and qualifiers. Thanks for that clarification.

:!: :wink: 8)


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This thread calls to mind an article written by Dr Sadler about certain criticisms of The Urantia Book, found here:
https://www.urantia.org/study/consideration-some-criticisms-urantia-book


One of the criticisms:

Quote:
10. Criticism: The Urantia Book is a commonplace hodgepodge of verbiage, just such as numerous automatic writers have produced.


He answers:

Quote:
I can testify that the Urantia Papers were not the product of automatic writing or any other technique of psychic legerdemain known to me.

While we are not at liberty to tell you even the little we know about the technique of the production of the Urantia Papers, we are not forbidden to tell you how we did not get these documents.

Let me call your attention to the following outline of present-day psychologic and psychic phenomena.

UNUSUAL ACTIVITIES OF THE MARGINAL CONSCIOUSNESS: (The subconscious mind)

1.Automatic writing
2.Automatic talking
Speaking with "tongues"
Trance mediums
Spirit mediums
Catalepsy
3.Automatic hearing--Clairaudience
Hearing voices
4.Automatic seeing
Dream states--twilight meditation
Visions--Automatic dramatization
Hallucinations (shifty "reality" feelings)
5.Automatic thinking
Automatic fearing--Anxiety neurosis
Automatic ideation--mental compulsions
automatic judgments - Intuition, "hunches"
Automatic Association of ideas--premonitions
Automatic guessing - ESP--extrasensory perception
Automatic deductions--delusions--paranoia
Dominance by marginal consciousness--dreams and hypnosis
6.Automatic remembering
clairvoyance--automatic memory associations
Telepathy--mind reading (?)
Fortune telling (largely fraudulent)
Musical and mathematical marvels
7.Automatic acting
Automatic behavior--(major hysteria; witchcraft)
Automatic motion--motor compulsions
Automatic overdrives--manic episodes
Automatic walking--somnambulism
8.Automatic personalization
Automatic forgetting--amnexia
Automatic dissociation--double and multiple personality
Schizophrenia - split personality
9.Combined and associated psychic states

NOTE: The technique of the reception of The Urantia Book in English in no way parallels or impinges upon any of the above phenomena of the marginal consciousness.


This is a handy guide when trying to answer the "channeling" question. Even though he does not specifically mention channeling, I think #s 2 and 3 above cover what I, at least, understand as channeling.

MaryJo


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SEla_Kelly, it appears that you might be confusing translation with channeling...? I have deleted your post as not relevant to the discussion.

MaryJo


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fanofVan wrote:

The UB is not a channeled work. There is no such thing.


You don't believe the sleeping subject narrative? I don't (I'll tell you what I believe later if you like) but if you personally don't believe the sleeping subject narrative, how did the UB come to us?


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Sure I believe it....read the suggested material. The sleeping subject did not originate or channel the Papers. I was sure it was simply of human origin for several readings. Ultimately I realized the claims of the authors were far more believable than any presumption of human authorship or alternative. It is simply too well written and detailed and sweepingly comprehensive and integrated to be anything except what the authors claim.

I already knew channeling was a bunch of hooey parlor games for the gullible....been there and done that! No serious thinker or truth seeker could possibly take channeling seriously or not for long anyway...it doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny and examination. The UB will stand up to all such consideration.

As a new reader William, until you have actually read and studied the historical records of the Forumites and Sadler and related materials, your beliefs and opinions would be considered by me to be prematurely uninformed ....but you're welcome to them!

As Kat says above: the source and means remains secondary to the contents themselves! Interesting but not vital. Believe what you will! I haven't believed in channelers or mediums or oracles or witch doctors since I read Houdini's biography as a teenager. Then I met some self ordained so-called channelers of Seth and had some readings and knew I was right.

I've also listened to tapes and read transcripts of those who claim to speak to and for the gods to correct, complete, revise, and update the Revelation. I did so out of curiosity and courtesy to those who find it credible...it is not that. Nor even interesting or relevant or cohesive or consistant and so many failed predictions have been pronounced over the decades it is unimaginable how such frauds can still masquerade as readers of the UB. There is nothing credible in such claims.

:wink: :biggrin:


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fanofVan wrote:
Sure I believe it....read the suggested material. The sleeping subject did not originate or channel the Papers. I was sure it was simply of human origin for several readings. Ultimately I realized the claims of the authors were far more believable than any presumption of human authorship or alternative. It is simply too well written and detailed and sweepingly comprehensive and integrated to be anything except what the authors claim.

I already knew channeling was a bunch of hooey parlor games for the gullible....been there and done that! No serious thinker or truth seeker could possibly take channeling seriously or not for long anyway...it doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny and examination. The UB will stand up to all such consideration.

As a new reader William, until you have actually read and studied the historical records of the Forumites and Sadler and related materials, your beliefs and opinions would be considered by me to be prematurely uninformed ....but you're welcome to them!

As Kat says above: the source and means remains secondary to the contents themselves! Interesting but not vital. Believe what you will! I haven't believed in channelers or mediums or oracles or witch doctors since I read Houdini's biography as a teenager. Then I met some self ordained so-called channelers of Seth and had some readings and knew I was right.

I've also listened to tapes and read transcripts of those who claim to speak to and for the gods to correct, complete, revise, and update the Revelation. I did so out of curiosity and courtesy to those who find it credible...it is not that. Nor even interesting or relevant or cohesive or consistant and so many failed predictions have been pronounced over the decades it is unimaginable how such frauds can still masquerade as readers of the UB. There is nothing credible in such claims.

:wink: :biggrin:


Forgive my persistence, but maybe you could explain this in a way a child can understand.

So... lighting incense and uttering an incantation to summon a spirit presence is a channeling. But spirit entities connecting with a physical mortal's thought adjuster as he sleeps in order to use his mouth to utter a message to the mortal physical realm isn't?

In both cases a person and/or tools are necessary for both physical and spiritual being to communicate. Could you attempt to make the distinction?

The value of the written content of the UB is subjective. I find value in it (otherwise I wouldn't be here), but others might not.


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The book was not "uttered".


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:15 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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,

The tittle of this thread is in error. The Urantia Papers were not channeled. The story of their reception is multi-faceted, having different methods of contact over several decades, and did not involve hand-holding around a table of spirit dabblers inviting the dead to speak to the living.

,


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William S. wrote:
So... lighting incense and uttering an incantation to summon a spirit presence is a channeling. But spirit entities connecting with a physical mortal's thought adjuster as he sleeps in order to use his mouth to utter a message to the mortal physical realm isn't?


That's correct. Channeling comes from a trancelike mystical state where consciousness is directed toward submerged subconscious levels. Contact with a Thought Adjuster requires access to the superconscious which is on the upper borderland of the morontia soul. The two levels of consciousness are in opposite directions of one another each requiring different means of approach. Additionally, the utterances produced during mystical trances are produced by humans and humans alone. The Revelation was produced with the assistance of a midwayer capable of contacting the sleeping subject's Thought Adjuster, and this is something the trance state does not require because it has nothing at all to do with the Thought Adjuster.

Exactly how the midwayer was able to assist in utilizing the physical aspects of the sleeping subject for the Thought Adjuster's use while the subject was unconscious is not something anybody understands. But we do know the sleeping subject was not in a trance, he was sound asleep. It's not possible to be in a trance and sound asleep at the same time. A trance takes conscious effort, meaning at least part of the mind must be awake and aware of what it is doing in order to produce the trance, described as "vivid islands of focal attention" in the reference below. In the case of the sleeping subject the midwayer took over those aspects of the mind which under ordinary circumstances would have had to be conscious in order to function, such as speaking. The mechanism for doing that is the midwayer's secret, and I presume there may have also been assistance from a physical controller, but I don't know.

(1099.7) 100:5.9 The characteristics of the mystical state are diffusion of consciousness with vivid islands of focal attention operating on a comparatively passive intellect. All of this gravitates consciousness toward the subconscious rather than in the direction of the zone of spiritual contact, the superconscious. Many mystics have carried their mental dissociation to the level of abnormal mental manifestations.

(1258.1) 114:7.9 On many worlds the better adapted secondary midway creatures are able to attain varying degrees of contact with the Thought Adjusters of certain favorably constituted mortals through the skillful penetration of the minds of the latters’ indwelling. (And it was by just such a fortuitous combination of cosmic adjustments that these revelations were materialized in the English language on Urantia.) Such potential contact mortals of the evolutionary worlds are mobilized in the numerous reserve corps, and it is, to a certain extent, through these small groups of forward-looking personalities that spiritual civilization is advanced and the Most Highs are able to rule in the kingdoms of men. The men and women of these reserve corps of destiny thus have various degrees of contact with their Adjusters through the intervening ministry of the midway creatures; but these same mortals are little known to their fellows except in those rare social emergencies and spiritual


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Again, when you have researched the topic, your questions will reflect your knowledge of the subject. There are many resources from the Forumites and there is the UB itself which speak to the matter.

What happened is far less clear than what did NOT happen. The sleeping subject did not originate or channel the Papers. He did not speak nor did he write a single "utterance". He was not conscious, or conciously or subconsciously engaged or aware. He was also personally indifferent to the UB and the process.

Please find a medium or channeler which fits such a description. The result of all mediums and so called channelers is so human, so shallow, predictable, ordinary, contrived, inconsistent, similar, formulary, and disappointing.
Nothing like the Papers.

Reading and appreciating and understanding and applying the text is certainly subjective. But not the contents themselves which present a very detailed and objective view of universe reality designed to educate the world for 50+ generations for the stated purpose of reducing human confusions and eliminate the human errors of metaphysics and philosophy and perspective of our source, origins, purposes, destiny, relationships, history, and our personal connection to Deity.

We are only into the third generation so far....

And as has been said already....it is the contents which are to be studied, measured, tested, discerned, and determined to be of value and deliver meaning. If the same scrutiny is given to mediumship and the UB, comparative analysis will find one very inferior to the other.

My recommendation is more time in the text is more fruitful than reading about the text. As with Christianity's abandonment of the gospel OF Jesus in favor of the gospel ABOUT Jesus, the origins of the Revelation can distract one from its contents. After reading for nearly a decade without meeting or even knowing of a single other reader, I decided it must have just dropped from the sky.

Later I found out why it didn't. The story goes that the first 3 parts are the final result of hundreds, even thousands of direct questions asked by a rather educated and sophisticated and reverent panel of forumites studying every answer in detail followed by more probing questions. The book itself is an evolutionary gift of knowledge and truth.

8)


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