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Yaakov001 wrote:
I Must Speak wrote:
Yaakov001 wrote:
No, you misunderstand. Each time I would enter a bookstore, I would see a copy of the UB.


gotcha!

I used to flip around the UB because I got the book and had not had a chance to read it like a normal book - page 1 on 8) - before I joined the internet discussion group run by the Foundation - this was in the early 1990s.....

So in order to understand the discussions on the internet, I would read the UB references the debaters provided. It was a total waste of time for my personal tried and true way of Ace-ing a graduate course, so to speak.

Bottom line, it's just stupid to read a book any other way than to begin at the beginning and turn the pages one at a time - there are no short cuts to Paradise

.btw, you'll find that there are a lot of readers who really don't "care" what your religion is - meaning that it won't be held against you as a fellow reader that you are a Jew. The hope is that you return that kind of respect to all the "religions" that come here

Greeting:

I think you will find that most Jews are not inclined to judge others for their beliefs or lack thereof. We know what God has told us in the Scriptures (what non-Jews would call the "Old Testament") to do and what not to do. We do NOT know what he may or may not have told anyone else. Therefore, we are unable to comment on what other people should or should not do regarding obedience to God or lack thereof, aside from some basic rules, called the Noahide Laws, which apply to all humans, and are 7 in number. These are:

The prohibition on idolatry.
The prohibition on murder.
The prohibition on theft.
The prohibition on sexual immorality.
The prohibition on blasphemy.
The prohibition on eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement to maintain courts to provide legal recourse.

That being said, anything else is beyond our cognizance. I hope that makes sense.


So how is your Jewish clan doing in regards to following the Noahide Laws along with the rest of us humans?

Idolatry and blasphemy....who defines THAT for all of humanity these days?

As for eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive - I lack the imagination to understand what was going on so rampantly among humanity that that law needed to be written....


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I Must Speak wrote:
So how is your Jewish clan doing in regards to following the Noahide Laws along with the rest of us humans?

Idolatry and blasphemy....who defines THAT for all of humanity these days?

As for eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive - I lack the imagination to understand what was going on so rampantly among humanity that that law needed to be written....

Well, the Noahide Laws as we understand them are a condensed version of some of our own Laws. However, whereas a non-Jew only has 7 to worry about, we have 613 to worry about.

Who identifies idolatry and blasphemy? Both fair questions. There are indeed organisations of non-Jews that call themselves Noahides, or B'nei Noach, Sons of Noah, who work with Jews in order to come up with rules on subjects like that. But for the vast majority of the people of the world, there are no hard and fast answers. Basically, Christians, even though they worship a man (Jesus) as a God, are still regarded as being monotheistic. Muslims, Zoroastrians, some Hindus and Buddhists, and smaller groups such as the Druze, the Yazidi, etc are also accorded that designation.

Even for those who ARE breaking the Laws of Noah, we do NOT suggest any secular punishment here on Earth. Unlike ISIS, we believe in leaving people to God. It is not our business to make people do things they don't want to do.

As far as the command not to rip the leg off a living animal (or other body part), I can imagine that before the Flood, mankind had become so evil they were inclined to be grotesquely evil to God's other creatures as well as each other. That is just a guess, of course.


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Yaakov001 wrote:
I Must Speak wrote:
So how is your Jewish clan doing in regards to following the Noahide Laws along with the rest of us humans?

Idolatry and blasphemy....who defines THAT for all of humanity these days?

As for eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive - I lack the imagination to understand what was going on so rampantly among humanity that that law needed to be written....

Well, the Noahide Laws as we understand them are a condensed version of some of our own Laws. However, whereas a non-Jew only has 7 to worry about, we have 613 to worry about.

Who identifies idolatry and blasphemy? Both fair questions. There are indeed organisations of non-Jews that call themselves Noahides, or B'nei Noach, Sons of Noah, who work with Jews in order to come up with rules on subjects like that. But for the vast majority of the people of the world, there are no hard and fast answers. Basically, Christians, even though they worship a man (Jesus) as a God, are still regarded as being monotheistic. Muslims, Zoroastrians, some Hindus and Buddhists, and smaller groups such as the Druze, the Yazidi, etc are also accorded that designation.

Even for those who ARE breaking the Laws of Noah, we do NOT suggest any secular punishment here on Earth. Unlike ISIS, we believe in leaving people to God. It is not our business to make people do things they don't want to do.

As far as the command not to rip the leg off a living animal (or other body part), I can imagine that before the Flood, mankind had become so evil they were inclined to be grotesquely evil to God's other creatures as well as each other. That is just a guess, of course.


With 613 "laws" to worry about, I worry that you will have a harder time with a lot of the presentations (Papers) that comprise the UB. There's been a lot of confession and discussion about how the baggage we bring with us - beliefs, dogmas, delusions - clouds the ability to learn anew about truth beauty and goodness.

Imagine a list of 7 POSITIVE "laws" for the rest of us while you worry about the 613...laws like Thou shalt be merciful
Thou shalt be kind Thou shalt approach learning with joy and love....

you get the drift - feel free to add your own...

yaakow also said, "...Even for those who ARE breaking the Laws of Noah, we do NOT suggest any secular punishment here on Earth..."

So what do you do in the courts you are required to maintain? Collect fees?


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I Must Speak wrote:
With 613 "laws" to worry about, I worry that you will have a harder time with a lot of the presentations (Papers) that comprise the UB. There's been a lot of confession and discussion about how the baggage we bring with us - beliefs, dogmas, delusions - clouds the ability to learn anew about truth beauty and goodness.

Imagine a list of 7 POSITIVE "laws" for the rest of us while you worry about the 613...laws like Thou shalt be merciful
Thou shalt be kind Thou shalt approach learning with joy and love....

you get the drift - feel free to add your own...

yaakow also said, "...Even for those who ARE breaking the Laws of Noah, we do NOT suggest any secular punishment here on Earth..."

So what do you do in the courts you are required to maintain? Collect fees?

Actually, maintaining courts of justice for legal recourse is what any civilisation must do, Jewish or otherwise. As for the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments), some of them apply only in the presence of a Temple, which we do not have. Some of them apply only to females (for example, the laws on purity during and after menses), some of them apply only to men, some of them only to a Cohen, some only to a Levite, and some only a King of Israel. In my case, the Commandments that apply to all Jews and specifically to men apply to me. That amounts to about 230.

And Jews don't apply Jewish law to non-Jews, even in Israel itself, except for some very broad sweeping things, like enforcing the weekend from Friday to Saturday, and things like that.

As for accepting the idea that God is a God of love and all that, I don't think anybody could argue with that. "Thou shalt be merciful
Thou shalt be kind Thou shalt approach learning with joy and love...." can be found in just about every religion worthy of the name, Jewish or otherwise. I think you are exaggerating a bit.


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Having laws in place that apply only to Jews and not to anyone else who is not Jewish means that Jewish courts, or civil courts with only Jewish judges and administrators, are not qualified to either judge or to maintain law and order among non-Jews.

Quite the conundrum considering that the UB notes the fact that inside every human heart beats a desire for fairness.


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I Must Speak wrote:
Having laws in place that apply only to Jews and not to anyone else who is not Jewish means that Jewish courts, or civil courts with only Jewish judges and administrators, are not qualified to either judge or to maintain law and order among non-Jews.

Quite the conundrum considering that the UB notes the fact that inside every human heart beats a desire for fairness.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. What I am saying is that, in this world, in Israel, the laws are applied to everyone equally. The only time this is not the case is in family courts, like marriage and divorce issues, where each religion handles its own matters (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Druze).

Civil law in Israel does not differentiate between the the four faiths except in family matters, and one other area, namely, the Right of Return, where any Jew is guaranteed the right to live in Israel, and citizenship within the State as well. Any non-Jew must go through the standard immigration procedures (I think one must live there for 10 years before one is eligible for citizenship, much like in other countries).

Obviously, I am assuming that in a world wherein there is no hatred for Jews, that sort of thing (The Right of Return, which was designed to give Jews a place they could go to protect us from anti-Semitism) would probably not be necessary any more. In a post-Earth existence, there would be no need for that kind of thing.

I don't think you all get the hang of what I am saying. What I mean is, that on this Earth, Jews occupy a certain place in the world, both in their own estimation (as the Chosen People), and in the estimation of other people (both those who are philo-Semitic and those who are anti-Semitic). After our sojourn here, will we still BE the Chosen People? Who knows? I certainly don't! That is part of what I am reading the UB to find out! And no, don't tell me. I would like to read it for myself.

I have to go give the wife some TLC, but I think perhaps this might help you get it a little better, what I mean that is. Talk to you soon.


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Greetings Yaakov. I just wanted to encourage your enrollment in a UBIS class as I have taken 3 of them. Each class has 20 or so students and one class had students from 4 continents and 8 countries. Had a great time. Teachers use a question format to guide student discussion in the topic with specified and recommended text sections as the focus for multiple topics at multiple levels. I have no doubt you will enjoy the experience.

As to what to read - front to back is recommended but I didn't and many don't. The whole thing needs to be digested for its full nutritional potential. I went straight to the middle first myself. I look forward to your voice.

•Paper 100 - Religion in Human Experience
•Paper 101 - The Real Nature of Religion
•Paper 102 - The Foundations of Religious Faith
•Paper 103 - The Reality of Religious Experience
•Paper 104 - Growth of the Trinity Concept
•Paper 105 - Deity and Reality
•Paper 106 - The Universe Levels of Reality
•Paper 107 - Origin and Nature of Thought Adjusters
•Paper 108 - Mission and Ministry of Thought Adjusters
•Paper 109 - Relation of Adjusters to Universe Creatures
•Paper 110 - Relation of Adjusters to Individual Mortals
•Paper 111 - The Adjuster and The Soul
•Paper 112 - Personality Survival

8)


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@yaakow

you stated, "....I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. What I am saying is that, in this world, in Israel, the laws are applied to everyone equally. The only time this is not the case is in family courts, like marriage and divorce issues, where each religion handles its own matters (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Druze)...."

I am trying to understand, not mis-understand. 8)

Which laws, specifically, are "applied to everyone equally" in Israel - you previously wrote this about "laws":

"....Therefore, we are unable to comment on what other people should or should not do regarding obedience to God or lack thereof, aside from some basic rules, called the Noahide Laws, which apply to all humans, and are 7 in number. These are:

The prohibition on idolatry.
The prohibition on murder.
The prohibition on theft.
The prohibition on sexual immorality.
The prohibition on blasphemy.
The prohibition on eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement to maintain courts to provide legal recourse...."


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fanofVan wrote:
Greetings Yaakov. I just wanted to encourage your enrollment in a UBIS class as I have taken 3 of them. Each class has 20 or so students and one class had students from 4 continents and 8 countries. Had a great time. Teachers use a question format to guide student discussion in the topic with specified and recommended text sections as the focus for multiple topics at multiple levels. I have no doubt you will enjoy the experience.

As to what to read - front to back is recommended but I didn't and many don't. The whole thing needs to be digested for its full nutritional potential. I went straight to the middle first myself. I look forward to your voice.

•Paper 100 - Religion in Human Experience
•Paper 101 - The Real Nature of Religion
•Paper 102 - The Foundations of Religious Faith
•Paper 103 - The Reality of Religious Experience
•Paper 104 - Growth of the Trinity Concept
•Paper 105 - Deity and Reality
•Paper 106 - The Universe Levels of Reality
•Paper 107 - Origin and Nature of Thought Adjusters
•Paper 108 - Mission and Ministry of Thought Adjusters
•Paper 109 - Relation of Adjusters to Universe Creatures
•Paper 110 - Relation of Adjusters to Individual Mortals
•Paper 111 - The Adjuster and The Soul
•Paper 112 - Personality Survival

8)

Greetings FanofVan:

I have no doubt that you are right. I am looking forward to the classes, I assure you. At present, I am reading from beginning to end, but I shall verify whether that is a good idea or no as I continue, and let you know what I think. So far, I am digesting the material ok. Its a little deep, of course, but I do have an extensive educational background which is coming in handy at present with this book. I have to look soon at the website, actually, for UBIS, and determine what classes are being offered. I will keep in touch with you regarding the subject.


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Yes....deep.....and wide. No hurry; according to the book, direction of progress is far more important than speed of progress. Enjoy your discovery. And every single reader found many truths known confirmed and many preconceptions challenged. We each have our own menus of both depending on prior efforts to seek, find, discern, and live truth. The unique, personalized perspective, experience, and expression of each life by each religionist is a treasure to all others. Uniformity and homogenization are not desirable. I am confident in your personal progress in the spirit and your contribution here and elsewhere. I hope you find great welcome and many friends here among this merry band of religionists. The UB tells us that all true religion is lived and it is lived by each child of God who seeks God and knows love and gives love and expresses that love in truth, beauty, and goodness. Each are connected to God and to one another by this family relationship....whether we acknowledge it or act like it. But it is in the acknowledgment and choices we each make that either bears the fruit of this vine or not. Welcome to this little corner of the vineyard.

In case you don't have it, here the address link for UBIS: http://ubis.urantia.org/moodle/

Classes are offered by semester. Next one is January I think. Get on the mailing/contact list for notices and updates. Enjoy.

Brad 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
Yes....deep.....and wide. No hurry; according to the book, direction of progress is far more important than speed of progress. Enjoy your discovery. And every single reader found many truths known confirmed and many preconceptions challenged. We each have our own menus of both depending on prior efforts to seek, find, discern, and live truth. The unique, personalized perspective, experience, and expression of each life by each religionist is a treasure to all others. Uniformity and homogenization are not desirable. I am confident in your personal progress in the spirit and your contribution here and elsewhere. I hope you find great welcome and many friends here among this merry band of religionists. The UB tells us that all true religion is lived and it is lived by each child of God who seeks God and knows love and gives love and expresses that love in truth, beauty, and goodness. Each are connected to God and to one another by this family relationship....whether we acknowledge it or act like it. But it is in the acknowledgment and choices we each make that either bears the fruit of this vine or not. Welcome to this little corner of the vineyard.

In case you don't have it, here the address link for UBIS: http://ubis.urantia.org/moodle/

Classes are offered by semester. Next one is January I think. Get on the mailing/contact list for notices and updates. Enjoy.

Brad 8)

Greetings, Brad:

In fact, they are done in trimester, and the next one IS in January, you are correct. I have already signed up for an account there, and am checking daily for when things are posted for the January term.

I am sure you are right. I have found so far that the UB is a challenge, but has not threatened my Jewishness in any way. Nor do I think it will. I expect fully that it will augment it. It may render me in some ways more Orthodox, and in some ways less so, but I don't think the outward expression of my Faith will change that much. I am even becoming less concerned about the Jesus issue, although I have yet to read the Papers on that subject.

I am less stressed than I was about a variety of things. The UB is making more sense. I must close for now.

Regards,
Ya'akov


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