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Well, here's a thought. If the woman wants the child and the man doesn't, then he gives up full rights to the child and is not made to provide child support. I believe that to be in the rights of the father, since adoption is an option.

If the woman wants to have an abortion and the man wants the child i believe the woman should have to give birth, and the rights of her as a parent could be discussed after counseling etc..... i give that to the mother because of hormones and emotional depression etc... during pregnancy.
If a counselor states that in his opinion she has truely changed her mind about being a parent then she should have rights. If not, all rights of a mother should be stripped and full custody to the father.

Now for abortion. Let's just say i don't like it. But i believe there are certain arguements "for it" that i understand also.

So here's a compromise. If you decide you want to have an abortion, and you will not change your mind to have the baby and give it up for adoption, then you will be offered the abortion and at the same time be sterilized from any further pregnancy. Basically -- if you choose to end a pregnancy, you lose that privelage in the future. If you give birth and give it up for adoption, then you're still free to have that choice. I would say the same for the father, IF you can prove who the father is with DNA testing etc..... and based on his choice.

So basically, if you abuse your rights to procreate, you lose them.

Just sorta some quick thoughts on that. I've never really discussed it all before. I know it sounds harsh in some ways, but i think it pretty "justified" for everyone involved all the way around, including the unborn fetus. Though there may be an abortion, there will never be another one from the same person.

Blessings
angel


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Wow! I prepared 2 different (long!) posts and deleted them both. Lemme just start over.
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(((Angel))) Dank you ferry mulch for your candor!

I will simplify the pages and pages that I was prepared to post into a much shorter statement.
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Anyone, (MALE or FEMALE!) that has SEX without being prepared to take on the responsibility of caring for the offspring that might come from committing that act, should be required to have themselves sterelized. (End of story!)

NO CONDOMS! NO BIRTH CONTROL PILLS! And most certainly NO "MORNING AFTER PILLS"! (<----- That's that biggest insult to God yet!)

Definately no Abortions! (Other than in cases of Rape or if the Mother is in serious risk of dying in Childbirth.)

God gave us the Seeds of Copulation so we could "Go forth and fill the face of the Earth".

Far too many of us, have gone far too long, taking advantage of the fact that we have figured out ways to stop God's manifestation from taking hold!
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Kind of a twist of the old saying, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time!"
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Just a sudden rash opinion!
KARLUS
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OH! I can think of one exception. Women that act as surrogate Mothers for other Women that cannot have Children themselves.


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I think it is definitly an acceptable consequence for the decision of an abortion, especially when there are people willing to adopt. I have literally heard of a girl that has had 3 or 4 abortions. :shock:

To me, no more liberty in that area, At all. I wonder how we could go about getting that into the hands of our leaders -- maybe it could someday actually be a law. :?:

Angel


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Maybe I should clarify my reasons for bringing this article to this thread. It isn't my intent to judge the parents or authority figures of this article. I don't know any of them and will not presume to analyze their motives.

Though it seems others have no problem in analyzing my motives, I'm not offended.

J.B. with all due respect seems to me that you're the offended one...it is not my intent to offend you so I appologize. My opinions are in no way directed at you personally. They are meant to be symbolic. So please don't take them personally.

angel said:
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The point is, I believe people who are in a "parental" position can only be judged by other parents.

Angel, maybe women who are considering an abortion can only be judged by women who have actually had one?

J.B. maybe counselors should only be judged by other counselors?

Maybe people who are in a teaching position should only be judged by other teachers?

I could follow this line of logic with other examples not related to this thread, but as a potential educator, the point is it has been discussed in class by working educators that parents who are concerned with only their own child will tell teachers what is right or wrong with their teaching method for all children, sometimes in a very personal attack. Maybe these problem parents should be put in a brightly colored cage for their own good of course.

Those who designed the NCLB act of 2002 are non-educators telling teachers how to teach. Teachers, for the most part, don't like this any more than counselors being told how to do their job by non-counselors. Or parents being told by non-parents how to do their job. This has effectively put teachers in a cage.

What if a teacher locked a problem child in a brightly colored cage "for their own good" in an effort to send a message to other students who are deemed "unfit" or parents who refuse to see that their child has a problem?

I bet if any school or teacher tried this; the stuff would really hit the fan. Because of strong emotion we all can, at times, be too close to the forest to see the trees. Believe me in the classrooms of today there are students who pose a serious threat to teachers, other students, as well as themselves. Teachers can do nothing, until after the fact of a serious incident, that is. Unfortuantely by then its usually too late.

Karlus said:
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Anyone, (MALE or FEMALE!) that has SEX without being prepared to take on the responsibility of caring for the offspring that might come from committing that act, should be required to have themselves sterelized. (End of story!)

I actually read on another [non-UB] thread related to this topic that a poster believed all males at the age of 12 should undergo mandatory vasectomies!!! And then prove their worthiness to society to have the privilege of fathering a child which would correct the operation. Talk about being put in a brightly colored cage...

War is peace,
Only chaos brings order, and if we love someone we must put them in a cage.

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If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


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It is another example of 'everyone' in a cage. Meaning, there are those on the board that when posting they group "everyone" into the same category, when we know life is not like that at all. What one parent does, is surely not the same as how the next parent raises their child. How one parent treats a teacher in school is not how "every" parent treats the teachers in school

And for you personally, and alll others who read FYI i have been there on the abortion table and i have got up and walked out. Resulting in my beautiful daughter who is now 7 and the light of my life. So i do know many of the emotions that go on when faced with that decision, but i also realized for me, in my opinion, my life was not "her fault'. And i could not take her life because of my current situation.

I see that as an appropriate action in having an abortion., because i have been there, and there are other options. But it is your choice. And i can say that if you can make that choice to kill what lives inside you, having been in that very position myself, then you lack something within you -- and you should not be given a second, third or forth chance to decide when you're ready to have a child.

So as i said before, alot of this is based on experience as a parent, as a young lady dealing with the option and choice of abortion, as a mother that takes part in her childrens school, and keeping in contact with their teachers............ I have that experience,

Respectfully
angel


Last edited by angel on Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:03 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Angel,

I don't recall using the word "hate" to describe any of my views on teaching or parenting. I don't hate teaching or parents. The look a child has when a lesson is finally understood, is the reason teachers teach. That light bulb of understanding going on, is priceless. There are plenty of positive reasons for being a teacher. Since I'm not a parent, I must understand how they think if I'm to be any kind of effective teacher. But if one can't be a teacher unless one is a parent first, then I'm wasting my time at college. Negativity you say. I've had a fantastic time the last 3 and a half yrs of my life because I let go of negativity. And its all Our True Father's doing. Respectfully Angel, maybe if you let go of negativity you won't be sick anymore. We must let go of the negativity before we can experience the positive things in life. But this negativity has affected us all in various ways.
Quote:
So instead of using all of your "reading books, and study guides about parenting, why don't you actually listen to people who are parents?

I most certainly am doing/have done that especially during the time I worked as a teacher's aide. Since America is so full of such wonderfull parents, like you, who presume to tell me I can't teach because I don't have any children of my own [or worse] I find it very hard to make a difference or care about the kids. As I posted earlier, me and responsibility have never been best friends. But the challenge has its appeal. I will listen to parents who have something of value. But unsolicited advice turns me off.

Tell me Angel, what is the Urantia Book if not a reading book or a study guide about God? Do you believe reading the UB is enough to gain eternity? Or does one have to use what they've learned to the best of one's understanding?

Yes, you made your choice while on the operating table and chose life based upon your own understanding but other women have the right to make their choice based on their understanding. Your opinion is no more valid than theirs. You are stating your truth. So am I.

Though you only see my chosen internet persona, not my classroom behavior, nor the compliments I get from working educators about my natural teaching ability, nor the way children respond to me in class--you really know nothing about me. How I appear in these posts is not how I am in life.
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I have that experience, and i believe that stands more so in value than what you have to base your opinion on.

So you believe your opinion is more valid than mine base on what little you actually know about me. Fine. I have unsolicited letters of recommendation from campus administrators and teachers who have actually worked with me; who would laugh at your assessment. But that's OK as I certainly wouldn't want to see the world through you eyes either. The look of understanding is certainly not shinning on this thread.

Randy

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Given that i wish to respond with mean words and hatefulness I will clearly just take what you have spoken to me. I give. I will take into consideration what you have said and try to use it in a positive way for my life. Not because i like you, or really feel like doing that right now, but because i'm morally choosing to do so.

Forgive me if i judged you wrong,or made you feel attacked in any way.
Peace and blessings to you and yours
Angel


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Well, let me jump in to this thread while the iron is hot. I just found it yesterday and have enjoyed reading every post up to and including the recent few. I have to say, Randy, I loved your questions and I very much responded to your passion. I found NO negativity in it but much drive and ambition to make a difference and the incumbent frustration that goes into finding direction for that passion, that desire to serve, that will to DO SOMETHING, when it is so apparent the need is so great. Where do we begin? Indeed. Teachers teach.

My name is Gerdean. I've been a student of the UBook since 1967 when at age 24, I bought a First Edition in Hauula, Hawaii, for $15.95. I was making $1.65 an hour at the time, so it took me a while to save up for it. And over the years I have had that same attitude. It's like pacing the floor like a caged tiger, sweeping the air on occasion just to release some of the energy that would love to be tearing through the high grass of the plains or even crouching over succulent prey. This isn't negative. This is LIFE. It is passion. Enthusiasm! It is to be encouraged, not stiffled, not stuck in a box, in a brightly colored cage ... which is what has happened to us, to us all!

We are like mice in a maze, doing what we are supposed to do because some authority, the mores, the evolutionary state of being, has ordained this is how we shall live. This is the amount of money we shall make and this is the way we shall spend it. This is what we shall study and this is how we will be employed. What about revelation? What about the mind? What about free will? What about expression, for the individual as well as the society, for the parts as well as the whole, and for the Adjuster itself?

Well, back to basics. I don't like the idea of licensing, simply because it leads to more layers of bureaucratic red tape, fees, fines and big brother watching. I like the idea of there being schools, which give certificates, and there being a certain social or cultural pride in having a Certificate of Parentability ... after receiving the Certificate of Marriageability... just like the UB talks about (I believe it's Paper 72). We can either institute these reforms ourselves and get an edge up, or we can wait until society devolves further and such restrictions are forced upon us, and they will be, for sure, unless we get busy.

There are tests that can be administered now to kids that will determine their propensity to become criminals. But so far, we're still ignoring that. That's like watching something from Jurassic Park pick itself out of the egg without stomping on it.

But it is certainly essential that we begin to recognize the importance of home life, the master civilizer, and give half as much time and attention to the development and fostering of homes and child rearing as we do to money making and pleasure seeking.

I did not disagree with anybody else. In fact, I enjoyed all the postings, but I felt RHerman to be a kindred spirit and not at all "negative" -- just "real" -- and there's no substitute for character.

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Me and resposibility have never been best friends. The more I learn about the system, from classes I've taken, teachers' websites, and actual classroom observation & experience, as well as all points brought up on this thread; the less I like the idea of becoming a teacher or a parent.

I'm beginning to have serious doubts about becoming a teacher, especially since I'm not a parent. To accept the level of responsibility which society demands that educators take for children they did not choose to bring into the world, seems to be a greater burden than I'm willing to bear at this time. Since I've had serious problems taking responsibility for myself and my own choices throughout my life, maybe I better set my goals a little bit lower. Yes, fear of responsibility is most definately part of this doubt. But then it would be foolish to bite off more than I can chew.

me
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my point is, whether a teacher or a parent, though you may be fearful of the "unknown" and the responsibility each position brings, the fact that you have that is because of LOVE. Both parents and teachers have the greatest chance to experience the LOVE of God himself to us.

And Randy, you're calling to be a teacher may be to be at an exact place and time for some future child whose parents arent being who they should, and you will inspire him, and be a role model for him. You could be the reason that he reaches for more than he sees at home.

you
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Thank you very much Angel-I needed that!!!
Randy

me
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And this is not a stab at you. Though we havent' agreed in many areas, i do believe you are a very bright and smart individual.
I just think you would do more in "teaching" if you took part in areas that fit more with your daily life.

Heck, I think you would make an excellent Father. Have you ever thought about fostering a child or having children of your own?
Not for this particular article but in general the growth in you if you experienced that would be remarkable i think.

you
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Respectfully Angel, maybe if you let go of negativity you won't be sick anymore.

you
Quote:
I most certainly am doing/have done that especially during the time I worked as a teacher's aide. Since America is so full of such wonderfull parents, like you, who presume to tell me I can't teach because I don't have any children of my own [or worse] I find it very hard to make a difference or care about the kids. As I posted earlier, me and responsibility have never been best friends. But the challenge has its appeal. I will listen to parents who have something of value. But unsolicited advice turns me off.

As you will see Randy, though we may have disagreed, or had our words taken "out of our original context" -- or how we intended it to be heard, i have throughout this been positive. I have said many wonderful things about you, and wished you well. But this is an example of how you take one thing and judge the entire situation by it. And that is how i've felt the entire way through. You're a teacher that is speaking of parental licensing. You're not a parent. Yet the way you speak seems to judge all parents. And being a parent, who not only tries to be the best that i can be, but also takes as much part in my childrens lives as i can, and also supports each individual teacher each year for my children , respecting them completely, you in no way validate that there is any good anywhere.

So, my last few posts were not against you as much as in a personal way but instead standing up to a teacher that is standing up to a parent.
Obviously we WILL have different views, but that does not make me a negative person.

And taking a shot at my illness that is effecting my life so terribly right now because you didn't like my opinion as a parent ---- EVEN THOUGH i had already in the past personally spoken "HIGHLY" of you, just goes to show you don't always see things in a positive light yourself.

Now i took my time, and got over the "first response" emotions from your last post, in order to try and explain myself better.

So we have both done wrong, and both misunderstood the others point of view. So i publically say i'm sorry to you personally. Because in situations like this I DO TRY to do what's the right thing to do.

With respect and best of intentions,
Angel


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Hey y'all! So sorry but I've been offline for a couple of daze.

If y'all don't mind I'd like to ask a favour. Could you please post mesages one font size bigger?

If you click on font size and go to "larger", an HTML prompt comes up and says [ size = 18 ] [ / size ] (without the gaps) and you type your message in the space between the 2 ] ['s. If you change the 18 to a 17 your posts will come out the same size as the one I'm posting now.

The reason I am asking is because I have difficulty reading the standard regular font that comes out in this forum. (It's too small.) I don't like to sit too close to the Monitor because I kind of like to keep what eyesight I have left. And staring into a light source to read is not the best way to do that.

Of course this is not any kind of "Demand". But it would make it much easier for me to read posts from others.

Thanks ahead of time,
KARLUS
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(((Angel and Randy))) I hope y'all can get along. I don't think this place is meant for arguing about misunderstandings. Using this place to develop understandings would IMHO be much more productive. Do you agree?
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(((Randy))) I have never specifically been a Teacher "per se", but I can imagine how difficult the job could be. I have taught Guitar privately on a few ocassions and I found it especially hard to teach small children. I myself started playing when I was 5 years old. So when I would get a student that was 7 or 8 years old, I found it frustrating trying to get them to grasp something that I myself understood when I was even younger than them.

Teaching guitar was never a full time gig for me, so I kind of gave up on it after a couple of younger kids started crying because they thought I was angry with them. I wasn't angry at all! But I do get a bit hyper when someone isn't grasping the most basic of fundamentals. (I guess I just don't have the patience to be a teacher. LOL!)

I still teach a few older folx very casually. But not on a regimented basis. I'm not getting paid to teach them, so if they don't "get it"! There's nothing to refund. Tehehe!
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(((Angel))) I myself have never had any children. But I honestly don't think that a person needs to be a parent to be able to recognize if someone else is doing a good job raising their children. And to even offer them constructive advice from time to time.

Example: One of my best friends is a great big Biker Dude. (6'3", 300 lbs.) He's got a Harley Davidson, Tattoos, and a patch on his back of one of the Major Biker Clubs. (All the amenities!)

He has two children of his own that don't live with him. And the girlfriend that he does live with has two of her own little girls. One day one of the girls asked her Mother if she could go to the store and her Mother said no.

My Biker friend turned around and told the girl to go ahead and go to the store. I spoke up and told him to mind his own business. (If you know anything about Bikers, you know that they don't like being told to mind their own business!)

He looked at me and said, "WHAT?" I told him that he was wrong in telling the girl she could go to the store right after hearing her Mother tell her that she couldn't. I asked him how he would feel if he told one of his own kids not to do something, and his girlfriend turned around and told them to go ahead?

After a minute or two he understood that he was in the wrong. He called the little girl outside and at first he told her that her Mom had told him to tell her she couldn't go to the store. I looked at him and went, "AHEM!" So he corrected himself. He told the girl that he was out of place by countermanding her Mother, and that she had to do what her Mother had told her to do.
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I don't think that someone has to have been a Parent personally to be able to recognize good parenting. I myself would love to have Children of my own! But I don't know how good I would be at taking the responsibility of caring and providing for them?

Gawd knows I have a hard enough time caring and providing for myself! I think I'll just stick to being every kids favourite Uncle! (And Santa Claus at Xmas time! Ho! Ho! Ho!)
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(((Gerdean))) Welcome aboard! I share a lot of your opinions from your post. I see you have a lot of years under your belt with TUB, so I think that your input into these discussions could be quite valuable. The more voices the better IMHO.

From what I see, TUB doesn't give us specific instructions on what to do with our planet. It does offer a few suggestions of guidance. But as free will creatures, the end direction that we take will be up to us.

"Paper 72" is only an explanation of what direction a neighbouring planet took in it's development. Many of the things brought up might someday be applicable to us. But I see that our own planet would require some pretty different aproaches than what is in that particular paper.

Like you said, requiring licensing to become a parent or get married would not be the best way to get the ball rolling. Having people desire the honour of being certified for these privileges would be much better.

Our own approach (so far) on our Planet has been that two people simply decide that they want to be Married, and they throw a big wedding. Everyone involved is "pleased as pudding" when the happy day arrives, and they throw a great big party! But none of them are so happy a few years later when the couple winds up getting divorced. A lot of them wind up saying, "I knew it couldn't last!" (What a bunch of hypocrites!)

Society today has made it far too easy for a person to get married and divorced as many times as they see fit. And I myself see this as completely WRONG!

My own Parents got Married (Until Death did they part!) in 1948. In 2001 (53 years later.) my Father died. Hence they lived up to their vows. Far too many marriages nowadaze end up in divorce over little things that our parents generation would have sucked up and lived through.

You are 61 years old. Correct? So there is a good likelyhood that at least one of your own Parents has passed from this Earthly esistence. Am I correct? If I am correct, please allow me to ask a personal question. How long were they Married? (Well make that two questions!) Did they ever get Divorced?

Like you said. Licensing would not be the best approach. It would be much better to get society to mature to the point that the people who decided that they wanted to be married would be "proud" to go through something along the lines of an Educational Training and Testing to show that they are mature enough to take on the reponsibilities of Marriage.

And, IMHO it would be best to allow each person only "one" Marriage. (Well let's say only one Divorce! If a spouse died, I would think that they should be allowed to Marry again.) Even the Bible says that if you get Divorced, you are to spend the rest of your days alone.
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In the same sense. When the same "Married Couple" decided that they wanted to have Children, they would be "proud" to go through a similar course to obtain approval to become Parents.

Nowadaze, the higher Educated people conciously work on "Planned Parenthood" thinking and have their own "1.7 Children". While people of Lesser Intelligence are breeding unchecked just like Rabbits. And a great percentage of these people are surviving off of the "Taxpayer's" Tab! (This, IMHO, is not a way to move Society ahead as a whole!)
--------

One thing that truly sickens me is seeing that as Children are reaching Puberty, they are being taught "safe sex" in School. And being supplied "Free Condoms"!

All this approach accomplishes is to put a message into the heads of Children that they can be as promiscuous as they want to. As long as they commit the act in a way that will prevent conception.

As I said in my last post. I would like to see the Mores go more toward teaching the Children the responsibilities that might arise if and when they choose to have sex. And enforce those responsibilities by penalizing those that took the chance and wound up 'in that way"!

If you get pregnant, you get Married! (Just like in the old days!) My own Parents were already expecting my oldest Sister when they held their "Shotgun" Wedding in 1948. But they took on the responsibility of sticking together and raising a Family. (I am the youngest of 6 kids at the age of 44.)

Following the ideas from my last post. It would be interesting to see how society would develop if Pubescent Children were taught that if they became Pregnant and weren't prepared to take on the responsibilities that go along with it. They would be made to have the Child and give it up for adoption. (And face sterelization!) This would cause them (Yes! Even Children!) to think much more carefully about chasing their sexual urges.

I know this would be a terrible lesson! But 10 and 12 year old kids would be being taught that if they got pregnamt accidentally, (And were not prepared to take on the responsibility.) They would go "full term" and have to give up the Child. And both the Mother and the Father would then be sterelized.

This kind of attitude towards casual sex would go much further than temporarily sterilizing the "Boys" when they reached Puberty. "MY GAWD!" Doing THAT wouldn't do much more than give the Kids the ability to feel free to experiment with sex all that they wanted to.

Letting 10 and 12 year old kids watch on as their 14 and 16 year old friends, brothers and sisters had Babies taken away from them, and then get permanently sterilized would be a far more effective deterrent AFAIC!

I personally think that this kind of thinking would go much further than passing out free condoms at the Nurse's Office.
--------------

I hope that this post and my last don't sound contradictory. For I truly don't think that they are. I would see starting by drilling into people's heads the responsibilities that come with getting Married and raising Children as the Precursor to making them feel a certain amount of "pride" when they reach the level of receiving a "Certificate" that says they have achieved the maturity and intellectual level of being able to get Married and have Children.

Just an opinion, (Although a pretty extreme one!)
KARLUS


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Thanks, Karlus, for your warm (((welcome))) and for appreciating my contributions in advance. Let’s hope familiarity will not breed contempt in this case. 

I agree that Paper 72 is not an instruction manual for Urantia, but it does offer some inspiration to think about these things. As you say, “I see that our own planet would require some pretty different approaches than what is in that particular paper.” But it behooves us to think about the direction our world is taking and what we can do to influence that, one way or the other.

If we begin with the premise that we must accept WHAT IS before we can bring THE IDEAL into being, we have to have a critical eye. Granted, Urantia is a gorgeous planet, the shrine of Nebadon; granted we are fortunate to have so much going for us here – blue skies, deep seas, open fields, mountaintops, rivers, valleys, endless beauty, abundant food, water, fresh air; granted we are blessed to have the companionship of family and friends and the foundations that have been laid by our cultural heritage and our forefathers; granted we are fortunate to live in a country such as America, “the home of the brave and the land of the free,” where we have basic freedoms, such as freedom of speech, freedom of religious beliefs, freedom to congregate, freedom to bear arms and freedom to complain about the way things are and to implement the improvements we would like to see come into being, for such is the way of peace, prosperity and progress.

So understand right now, I am not complaining about what already works. My concerns are for what is not working, or for the steps we could take to launch new programs that could help catapult our world into the direction of light and life – whatever that might be. Perhaps we need to ascertain what light and life represents, so we know what to work towards.

Loosely speaking, Light and Life is that phase of planetary maturity wherein all men and women are God-conscious and where they delight to bear each other’s burdens.

If we were to delight in bearing each other’s burdens in this day and age, we might be doing irreparable harm, since the human race has not yet grown up. The haves might simply end up footing the bill for the havenots to continue to draw financial, emotional and psychic energy from the haves. How do we invigorate and empower the havenots to step out of the legacy of poverty and dis-ease that continues to hold sway over them, to the detriment of the whole, and how do we disentangle the haves from the sense of entitlement that continues to hold sway over them, to the detriment of the whole?

How do we teach people to live the Golden Rule as Jesus taught it … not only to love our fellows as Jesus would love them, but as Our Father would love them? Obviously the first priority of all of us should be to actualize the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man, but we can hardly wait for everybody to catch on. Are we going to consider ourselves the new leaders the UB talks about, or are we going to continue to wait for somebody else to lead us? Of course we are going to make mistakes, but we must begin somewhere.

If we see our planetary condition right now, today, September 23, 2005, as WHAT IS, and we hold in our sanctuary of spirit potential one of the goals of destiny – light and life for our world and for every individual in it as THE IDEAL, there needs to be a series of short-term goals that will get us from A to Z. Chances are great that the Ideal will modify as we set out, which is fine, because it means our efforts to support progress with growth are alive and not crystallized.

I’m going to stop here. This post is much too long already. But hopefully it serves to show that I have a keen appreciation for our world and the changes that must be made if we are to evolve. I have a keen appreciation for the questions posed by Rherman, who is looking at becoming a Teacher and wondering how satisfying it would be, how effective s/he might be … just as a mindful person would question before having a family how satisfying it might be, how effective s/he might be … all things considered. It’s called “counting the cost” and I hope nobody ever takes me to task for counting the cost. More people should do it. It is one of the marks of high civilization.

Like a bumper sticker I have seen several times and admire:
“Speak up, even if your voice shakes!”

You asked me, Karlan, about my background, more specifically, my parental influence. In the jargon, I come from a "broken home" and while I recognize it as dysfunctional, it was not as dysfunctional as many.

My parents were divorced when I was a very young and impressionable teen. At age 15, my Mom took my baby sister with her; I was left to care for my Dad and my younger brother who was 4 years my junior. I will be 61 in a few weeks and, as you deduced, my father is deceased and my mother lives across the river from me; I religiously visit her weekly. My brother died of suicide in 1981 and my sister is a successful home-owner, mother, registered nurse who lives near, but not with, our mom.

After my parents' divorce, my dad impregnated the woman he remarried, assuming the fatherly obligations of his second wife, her three children, their daughter, and my brother. At age 17 I moved west, where I have, for the most part, stayed. My mother had a series of husbands, perhaps as many as five or six, but her last husband died, leaving her a respectable widow; she moved west, too, a few years ago, to be near her daughters. I was married from 1970 through 1981 and am now married, since 1999. I have no children.

I used to look at people like you and feel envy. I imagined what it must be like to feel that kind of solidarity, to have that kind of roots. To live in the same town for decades, to have the same friends you knew in grade school. To have the family home paid for. To be able to help put your kids through school. To have developed the kind of character from having those assurances that would enable one to do it right the first time when you marry, and have wise guidance when you have children. But I have learned so much "experiential wisdom" from the path my life has taken, I no longer waste my time wondering what might have been.

But still I ask, now what do we do, Karlan? What standard would be a bit better for folks like me but not quite as fine as the one you have known? Instead of wanting everybody to attain the nuclear family ideal, which is not realistic in this day and age, what is a reasonable alternative we could shoot for as a step in the right direction? In the direction of the children being reared not only as tax-paying war fodder, sex toys, and consumers but as children of God and citizens of the universe?

The Urantia Book assures us that marriage will always survive in some form. Understanding that society can survive and function and even grow and be happy with surrogate family situations, extended family situations, even interracial and homosexual family situations, is good news. If the home is the master civilizer, then what can we do to help civilize it? Not by licencing or taxing or penalizing, but by supporting the family concept no matter how it is configured. By supporting the parents, who have the job of cultivating their progeny. And by supporting the children, whether they are receiving guidance at home or not.

This is one of the problems teachers are faced with today. Parents are not engaged in full-time parenting. They are overwhelmed! They have to work two jobs to survive in this economy; they have to keep the wolf from the door; they have to maybe keep up with the Jones; they have personal ambitions and pleasure lures to fulfill. Many of them assume the teachers will parent their kids, so they leave to the schools the task of educating their children about things they should learn at home, like sex and religion. SOMEone has to assume this responsibility!

I seem to recall RHerman spelling out the statistics -- or maybe it was you, Karlan, who talked about how much administrative work is required by, yes, licences and rules and regulations and restrictions and red tape, they hardly have time to teach! But don't let me get started on education. Not yet! We have not begun to chew the bone of family life.

Again, I've talked too much. But you did ask.

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(((Gerdean))) Thank you for your candor in your <edit> second <edit> last post. There are a number of things that you brought up that I would like to touch on. I truly hope that my own candor doesn't offend you. (Or anyone else?) For that is not my intention.

In particular I would like to point out to you that I live in Canada. I am not in the USA. But I am very close! It would take about five minutes to go from my driveway and cross the US border. And my hometown is inundated with Americans on a regular basis. Particularily on weekends when 19 and 20 year old American kids come over into Canada (Where the drinking age is only 19.) to drink in our bars.

I just wanted to point this out in order to give you understanding that even though I am not American, I am quite familliar with the USA and the Pros and Cons of what it means to be American.

I actually think it's safe to say that just about anyone in the world has a certain amount of understanding about the USA. The accuracy of their information is the only thing that would be open to scrutiny?

I also know from first hand knowledge that a high percentage of the American population is uninformed (If not completely misinformed!) about the rest of the World, as well as their own history.

I used to be married to an American. And I spent quite a bit of time carrying on conversations with her family and friends. I like to think I know of what I speak.

You made mention of the "Rights" of Americans. I think that many of these are grossly misunderstood by many of the people that are affected by them the most. And FWIW, I can't think of a single "Right" that Americans have that is not virtually identical in Canada.

Along with "Freedoms" comes the responsibility that goes along with abusing these rights.

"Freedom of Speech". Yes, you are supposed to be free to say whatever you want to. But what most people don't understand is that you can be held responsible and accountable for what you say when you speak. If your words offend someone else, thay can (and nowadaze most often do) take you before a judge to defend your words. And if your words are false and aimed at a particular person or group. They can (and most often do) file suit for Slander. So as you can see. The Freedom to Speak must be accompanied with the responsibility to be prepared to defend what you choose to say.

One thing that I mice elf found odd was as recent as a year ago. When your President Bush [comments edited] would be having any sort of rally, "Protestors" were corraled into what were called "Free Speech Zones". And on many ocassions, those who protested outside of these "Free Speech Zones", were detained by police (although never arrested) until whatever rally was over.

I even heard of one couple that wore "Anti-Bush" t-shirts (under their outer clothing) to some kind of rally, and were forcibly detained after they removed their outer clothing. And people were forced to sign docunemts declaring their "Allegiance to HIM!" in order to attend.

If "Freedom of Speech" applies to the entire Nation. Why does "HE" need "Free Speech Zones" at his public appearances?

--------------

Another very volatile issue for several years has been the "Right to Bear Arms". This issue is one that truly few people understand.

If you read the actual written document. It reads something like, The Right to Bear Arms in a "Well Regulated Malitia" against any threat, be it Foreign or Domestic. (<---- Paraphrasing?) It does not read as "Anyone can feel free to own and carry a gun any time and place they see fit to do so."
--------------

I'm sorry if this post has bothered anyone's karma at this point. But I am about to bring this line of thinking into the topic at hand.
--------------

(((Gerdean))). I notice that you live in New Mexico. I'm sorry if I am stereotyping the area, but there seems to be a group of States in that area (New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Texas, Etc.) where it is not unusual to see someone wearing a gunbelt with handguns quite visible. Just like in the days of the old west. (I mice elf see this kind of thing as quite uneccessary in today's society.)

Again. (FWIW) Even up here in Canada. I can go to the local gun store and buy just about any weapon that can be bought in the USA. The biggest difference is that "handguns" are a bit harder to obtain (legally) in Canada. But those who qualify can get a "permit" allowing them to have handguns. In fact! Most people that "legally" get handguns in Canada, are required to keep the weapon concealed. Having them in public view can get a person into a lot of legal trouble!
-----------

Back to how this relates to the topic at hand!

I can't think of any country, (Including the USA?) that has it's population guaranteed the "Right to Bear Children"? (Or a "Right to Procreate"?) And I can easily see Procreation as a thing that requires a lot of responsibility on behalf of those who wish to have children. Quite likely even more responsibility than gun ownership?

When someone has Children. They go beyond the responsibility for only themselves to that of molding another person into whatever they will eventually become in life. And I think that 90% of what a person eventually becomes begins with the upbringing that their parents present to them.

And relating to what you said about people "living off of the system". I think that it would be a good, and motovational move on the part of society as a whole, to place some kind of restrictions and regulations on those who you have labeled as the "have nots" taking some kind of control over the explosion of people being fed by "food stamps".

I personally think that it would be a good step if the GVMT started some kind of programs where if you couldn't find employment on your own, you could approach them and they would find something "productive" for you to do. (Along with being paid a reasonable wage for your participation.)

Unfortunately, this kind of approach would quickly be met by opposition from the private sector. I seem to recall a program started in Ohio a few years ago called "Workfare"? Where "Wellfare Recipients" were expected to do work on the hiways in order to recieve their monthly checks. The "Unionized" hiway workers objected quite loudly that their jobs were being taken away from them. Their attitude was one of, "S@%# them! Give them their Welfare checks and let us keep our jobs!"

I could see this kind of approach going into the Manufacturing Industries also. But again I could see a great amount of opposition from people employed in these industries.

A lot of people would think that this kind of approach would lead to a kind of Communism. But (IMHO) a cross between Communism and "Pure" Capitalism, (Without the Facism that seems to follow both?) might be a reasonable alternative until we (ALL OF US!) can come up with something better. (Make sure that every person that wants to play a productive part in Society gets the opportunity to do so!)
------------

Now "I" have rambled on too much! But just imagine how productive this world could be if every person was offered the opportunity to take part!

If every person on welfare, (In the USA alone!) was provided a chance to be a part of a productive society. A large part of the Tax Base that is currently used to provide for these people to have a "free ride" paid for by the "HAVES" would disappear.

I also see "Pure Capitalism" as falling apart. The "True haves" are extremely wealthy. (And worried!) They really don't care about those who "Have not"! One major example is the US Automotive industry. The actual owners of these corporations make millions upon millions of Dollar$!

Just recently they started promotions where employees could get "Employee Pricing". More recently they have gone to promotions where "everyone" gets Employee Prices! (Isn't that great!?) So the profit margin is high enough that they can offer discounts to everyone! Just to get people to buy their product.

They have an attitude that if they made 500 Million $ last year, and only 300 million this year, they lost 200 million. (That kind of thinking really confuses me?) Excuse me! They profited 300 million! How much do they think they need? And closing plants in order to keep from "LOSING" more is definately "NOT" the answer!
-------------

I don't know exactly what the true answer is? But I think that the true solution will eventually come from US (US as in we! Not US as in Unites States.) middle class, free thinking people. Those that might have a bit to lose, (Far less than the "haves"!) but someting to gain by seeing this world changed into a place that is a "truly equal" playing field for all.
--------------

So sorry if I got off topic?
(((Gerdean))) So sorry! It seems that we have "cross posted". You were working on your post at the same time as I was working on mine. And we posted at the same time. (Well I posted a bit later than you did. But I still posted my post before I saw yours!)

Yes, I was brought up in what most would consider as a functional "upper middle class" family on the surface. (But even the UMC has it's own dysfunctionality!)

My Father basically took a negative attitude towards the political idealisms that I embraced when I was in my 20's. (Way up in the Upper Left of the Political spectrum!)

It was when I was in my 30's that my Mother asked me to come home in order to take care of them. (Do household chores, etc.) My older Borther and Sister were both Married and raising their own families. So I (as the only currently "Unmarried" Child) seemed to be the best candidate to be "drafted" (Which I agreed upon without hesitation!) to come home and take care of the household chores that needed to be done.

I could have refused. But as a member of the Family, I think it would have been a wrong thing to do on my part. (If I had refused, my Sister would have forced our parents to sell the Family home and move into a "Partial Care Facility" for Elderly couples.)

[My Parents signed over "Legally Binding" "Power of Attorney" to my Sister years ago!]

My Sister is the Matriarch of a Modern Day (Two Income) Family that requires her to work full time. She has even less time to provide care for her Mother. She and her Husband have already committied "HIS" Mother to a "Home for the Elderly" because they did not have the time to care for her themselves. (I will not allow this to happen to "MY" Mother! She is still able to care for herself in her own home!)
-------------

I personally think that it is the job of the Children to care for their Parents. Just like their Parents cared for them when they were Children and unable to do so for themselves.

If it were up to my Brother and Sister, my Parent's home would have been sold a long time ago, and they (My Parents) would have been moved to an "Elderly Care Facility". (Now it's just my Mother! And they're trying to convince her. SHE AIN'T LISNIN'"!)

Neither my Brother or Sister would have found the time or inclination to go anywhere close to "out of their way" to spend enough time at the "Family Home" to truly provide any kind of primary care.

What bothers me most is that my Brother and Sister both find time to drop by every day or so "NOW"! And they are regularily trying to tell my Mother how much better off she would (Could) be in a home. (But she prefers the "home" she has lived in for 43 years!)

Meanwhile, they're trying to convince her how bad of a job they think I am doing at providing her with Primary care. (Well at least I'm here pretty close to 24/7. Instead of a few minutes every couple of days like the two of them!)

I get the feeling that they are secretly hoping that my Mom leaves the house to one of them in her will. But I have made it clear to my Mom that if circumstances don't change in some Major way, I would like to allways have "this" home, (The one that my Dad built for his Family.) to be able to call home. And I cannot fathom leaving my lifetime home in any kind of a permanent basis. Thinking of "strangers" renovating this house to suit their own ideas of a home makes me cringe!

Funny enough, the doorway from the kitchen to the living room has a frame with scratches on it. The scratchings show the heights of the Children from NYD 1963 to about 1974. I would find it an insult to our Family history to think that someone else might decided to have that doorframe refinnished to cover the scratchings.

(FWIW) The last scratchings for me were when I was 14 years old. I was an inch taller then than I am now. (LOL!)

I am now doing what I can to care for my Mother. And YES, I am living in the home that my Father built (in 1962) for his family.

I won't get into my own personal circumstances as of yet. But I can say that my own political beliefs have put me into a kind of "Catch 22" situation.

My own refusal to conform to what the "Upper Middle Class" expected from me has caused me great difficulties. (But that is my own problem!)
----------------

I might say more later. Right right now I am tired and must sleep.

I love to play pool! (And I am very good at it!) I have a tournament that starts in 7 hours and I want to get some rest and a workout at the local YMCA before I go.
----------------

Hey! I've been in 4 tournaments in the last two weeks, and I've won three of them! (Just a few more bucks in my own pocket! Eh?)

Peace!
KARLUS

P.S. - (((Gerdean))) My name is KARLUS. Not KARLAN. (Thanks!)

Gerdean wrote:
"I will be 61 in a few weeks"

Same for me! I'll be 45 on Oct 16th.


Last edited by Karlus on Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:59 am +0000, edited 5 times in total.

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angel wrote:
Given that i wish to respond with mean words and hatefulness I will clearly just take what you have spoken to me.
I give. I will take into consideration what you have said and try to use it in a positive way for my life.
Not because i like you, or really feel like doing that right now, but because i'm morally choosing to do so.

Forgive me if i judged you wrong,or made you feel attacked in any way.

Peace and blessings to you and yours
Angel

Ditto sister Angel. I appologize as well. Indeed what else can we do if we wish a mutual learning experience to take place?

A most hearty welcome to Gerdean!!! Maybe there is a light bulb of understanding after all...kindred spirit indeed!

What J.B. perceives as conspiracy theories, I perceive as the black patches of evil in a universal white background. In a manner of speaking this thread might be taken as the attempt to grasp the difference between personal sovereignty and governmental sovereignty. So far, the Declaration of Independence has made a great start. But I for one have not been vigilant, and slowly, personal freedom and sovereignty is being replaced by a GVMT which seeks increasing institutional sovereignty for the sake of its own power.

Karlus, thanks for your contibution to this thread. And having some experience working with children from pre-school to eight grade, including those who have ADD/ADHD or dyslexia to name a few, I have found that children respond best, at least in class, if they do not feel they're being forced in any way. Strict authoritarian teachers who force students always have more problems with classroom management. Children respond so much better if they are given their own choice in compliance and a clear description of the result of choosing to not comply. In my opinion, your story of the Biker Dude, Mother, and Daughter is symbolic of Uncle Sam, teacher, and student within the context of NCLB.

Karlus, while I understand your need for larger font size, as I'm very nearsighted mice elf, teachers must juggle the individual needs of more than 150 students everyday, while dealing with bureaucratic red tape, angry parents who feel the needs of their child aren't being met, and somehow still manage a little traditional education of Readin', wRitin', and aRithmetic. This is the ideal and many teachers fall short while trying to do their best. Many experience burnout. And unfortunately, some students will fall through the cracks.

While I'm not attempting to pidgeon hole all parents or teachers, nor am I attempting to belittle anyone's individual needs, do the needs of one child out weigh the need of the entire class or the entire school? Let's say I am personally allergic to peanut butter, so allergic that one small taste could kill me, does that mean peanut butter should be banned from school? It has happened.

In a classroom size of 30 students, there aren't enough educators, para-teachers, teachers aides, and subs to go around. Especially since educational budgets are being cut in many areas. Parents rarely see the bigger picture and the needs of their own child is more important [to them] than the needs of the entire class.

gerdean said: "This is one of the problems teachers are faced with today. Parents are not engaged in full-time parenting. They are overwhelmed! They have to work two jobs to survive in this economy; they have to keep the wolf from the door; they have to maybe keep up with the Jones; they have personal ambitions and pleasure lures to fulfill. Many of them assume the teachers will parent their kids, so they leave to the schools the task of educating their children about things they should learn at home, like sex and religion. SOMEone has to assume this responsibility!"

I don't have the article, but I've heard that more kids are being expelled from pre-school for behavioral problems during recent times than older students. And the trend seems to be growing.

At the risk of yet another conspiracy theory, I believe all these symptoms we've been discussing on this thread have been promoted by careful design to cause families and society to become increasingly dysfunctional. And it isn't Our True Father's doing. A patch of black that seems to be growing unless we work together to fix it.

Angel, while I agree with the spirit of your views on abortion, I personally do not believe a foetus is alive. It cannot live outside the mother's womb at least during the first trimester. If a woman actually killed three or four of her living children after giving birth; that would be an entirely different story. It has happened.

Because many parents are not engaged in full time parenting, many kids have the opportunity to experiment with sex, or pretty much anything else, from the time school lets out for the day [around 3:00 pm] and the time their parents get home from work [??? pm]. Kids are overwhelmed by peer pressure to experiment or they're not cool. Mass media advertizing constantly glamorizes and reinforces this.

Without getting too graphic, teachers have actually caught kids of the 13 or 14 agegroup [or even younger] engaging in this experimentation while on school campus or on school bus in route to a school function. Sometimes its consentual, sometimes its forced.

Society has taught kids this is what they're supposed to do. They don't believe they've done anything wrong, except for getting caught, that is. For teachers, this is an exceedingly difficult situation to handle. For a 43 yr old bachelor like myself, it could easily cost me my job, no matter how I handled this situation. What can teachers do except demonstrate the proper use of condoms in a proper classroom setting? In this I am most certainly open to suggestions...

_________________
If You Embrace the Truth, the Truth Will Embrace You!


Last edited by rhermen on Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:58 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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(((Randy et al))) Thank you for taking my request and increasing your font size. It makes it easier (by leaps and bounds) for me to read posts that way. Like I said, "It's no kind of command on my part." But it does make posts much easier for me to read.

If someone posted a complex post in a smaller font, I might just give up on reading it. Which I guess would be my own loss. But, from the point of view of the poster, they want their post to be read. So their purpose would be lost if I choose to skip a post because the font is too small.

(But enough about that!)
rhermen wrote:
What can teachers do except demonstrate the proper use of condoms in a proper classroom setting?

As I pointed out before. (Although quite hypothetically!) If a system were put into place where Children were taught, at a very young age, that having Sex leads to "unwanted" pregnancies. And if legislation were in place that the consequences of "unwanted" pregnancies would be forced sterelization. You would see children using far more care about what they are doing.

Knowing that they could (And quite likely would) be held accountable for their actions in a very physical way. It seems to me that more serious repercussions would truly get the attention of children. And these Children might just likely take these lessons with them into Adulthood.

(((Randy))) Regarding your comments about the difficulties of modern teaching: One thought enters my mind. Pick the brighter of the students and give them the privilege of "Tutoring" parts of the class. In other words helping their mentors understand the lessons being taught.

On another note I think that things worked better in "OUR" daze of schooling. If a Child failed a year of schooling, they were (and still should be) forced to repeat that year. It seems as though kids nowadaze are moved on to the next grade regardless of whether they have passed or not. I see this as completely wrong!
----------

(((Gerdean))) I truly hope that I didn't offend you with my last couple of posts! I noticed that you took the time to answer my question about your own family upbringing. I was actually surprised to see that you had come from a broken home.

According to my own timeline of thinking, your parents were Divorced in 1959 or 1960(?) The point I was trying to get at was that couples who were married in the 40's/50's might well be known as the last generation that took their Marriage Vows seriously! And I was fully expecting you to reply that your own parents remained Married until Death separated them. But that turned out not to be the case. (I'm so sorry for my misassumption!)

It just seems that in the 60's, Liz Taylor (and others in her position of Celebrity) started a "fad" of getting Married and Divorced as a whim. I can't think of many people my own age that got Married and stayed that way for more than 10 years. But it seems that the older generation (My Mom and Dad's generation.) tended to put forth much more effort to keep their Marriage alive.

I think that your own situation was the minority in 59/60 as opposed to the rule. Whereas nowadaze, someone having parents that stayed together for 20, 30, 40 years is a rarity. And this tendancy towards treating a "committed" relationship as an easy thing to walk away from is a poison towards the Societal idea of Family.

I remember being in Grade School and asking a Friend what they were doing after school. They said that they were going over to their Father's house? (This confused me at the time. I couldn't imagine why their "Father's House" was a different place from the place that they lived? I had to have the concept of Divorce explained to me.)

I personally see today's divorce rate as a retrogression of the Mores of Modern Society. My Ex-wife and I split up in 1987. During that time I mice elf have had a couple of Casual Relationships. But none that I would call my Female Counterpart a Girlfriend. And to the best of my knowledge, my ex-wife has been Married and Divorced twice in that time.

I find the casual disregard to the sanctity of Marriage that prevades society today to be "APPAULING" to say the least! People should take vows that they make very seriously. (IMHO)
----------

As a beginning, I would see a Societal (Notice I didn't say Governmental?) requirement that people obtain a "certificate" that shows they are responsible enough to be Married as a "Good start".

Next I would expect that people meet a "Societal Minimum" in order to become qualified to take on the responsibility of "Parenting"!
---------

(Just my 2 cents!)

Peace!
KARLUS


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Well, I've obviously bit off more than I can chew here. I was looking forward to engaging in conversation on this thread but it seems I am spreading myself too thin.

I'm employed as a legal transcriptionist four days a week and have my own fledgling business - editing, transcribing, proofreading etc, and I just got another job to do. I write and enjoy oil painting when I get a chance. I'm re-doing my web site, lurking on UBRON, dallying in Abner's Corner, staying abreast of the TeaM and getting behind in everything.

I have begun a response to your posts, particularly to yours Karlus, but have not been able to complete it, although I will come back when I can steal a few minutes. I just wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring you.

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Gerdean O'Dell
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