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A forum for issues regarding family life and child rearing.
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Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:18 pm +0000

The day they brought my son into my room for me to first see him -- I was scared beyond words!!!!! It took a good 4 monthes for me to really "feel" the mommy part, up until then it was basically a "job". Though i loved him every moment i looked at him, the fear of being responsible for him was overwhelming.

Being adopted i will tell you this, some people have children, but they are not meant to be parents, or more truthfully they choose not to. But a true parent makes the choice, faces the fear, and finds a way to do what needs to be done.

Sometimes life cannot help but leave the children alone to do homework, I am fortunate enough to be able to stay home with my children. My husband has also "grown" up in the past few years, and now as the ability and desire to come home and spend time with our children in study.

I can tell you right now i could not be a teacher in school. I admire all teachers. Very much. Now, i have to admit, i am ill, so i can't really base my current situation on what i "could or couldnt' do if i was well. But i repect those people who take on that responsibility. But I also say this, if you do not want to do it, DON"T. because we the parents, and the children can tell if you truely want to be there or not.

And the teachers that truely have it in their heart to teach love to do it.
Not to say they smile every single day, or don't have "bad" days, but its' what they desire to do in life.

I'm sorry i'm rambling, but i've had my meds.....

my point is, whether a teacher or a parent, though you may be fearful of the "unknown" and the responsibility each position brings, the fact that you have that is because of LOVE. Both parents and teachers have the greatest chance to experience the LOVE of God himself to us.

And Randy, you're calling to be a teacher may be to be at an exact place and time for some future child whose parents arent being who they should, and you will inspire him, and be a role model for him. You could be the reason that he reaches for more than he sees at home.

We are all born with the ability to parent, but we choose whether or not it is our main priority.

I have 2 biological siblings. I left them at age 3 and did not grow up even remembering them until i was 16 or so. We were taken away because we had parents that chose not to care of love us. ( and that's putting it lightly)
The oldest my brother, chose never to have a child. And lives out his life somewhere in the NW away from society. My older sister married 3 times and had 3 children and lost custody of all of them to their fathers because she chose drugs and the party life instead of being a parent.

I, though having experienced the same as them, grew up , and though fearful of this tiny soul they placed in my arms chose to be a parent.
Praying to God daily to lead me, and to be there for my children should i fail them But i try.

Again, it's all about choice. There is no testing involved. You wont' know until the choice is in front of you.

I hope this made some sense. Still a little sick here.

Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:45 pm +0000

Thank you very much Angel-I needed that!!!


Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:50 am +0000

I agree that most parents (except for the extreme cases we hear about from time to time) are doing the best that they can, but their best is not a key word that gives them an out for having failed their children. Nor us as a society for not breaking the spoon-fed and generational dysfunctions that keeps being passed on.

As a member of our society I feel I have a roll to play as much as the parents, and hoping for an educational avenue is not a bad way to go.

And don’t think the government is doing any thing at this moment. As for children in the foster care system once they are 18 they are dumped like a heavy stone and left with no resources. As a result there has been a support group formed in some areas so these kids can get together and relate to the unfortunate experiences that have left them unsuited to cope adequately with adult social and societal life.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:41 pm +0000

buckaroo, you make some great points which are of couse reflected in the UB, but where does personal sovereignty fit in? Increasing moral awareness is part of why I started the thread. Examination of personal sovereignty, still another part.


In response to the above: whereas personal sovereignty is a major issue, it is beneficial to recall that personal sovereignty is NOT absolute = only as it pertains to our personal destiny. To me, this means personal sovereignty needs to be balanced with personal responsibility. When a person has a child (or children) it behoves them to adopt the responsibility of raising that child "as if in the presence of God".

Personal sovereignty is also balanced with the sovereignty of the whole (worldwide community). We have an obligation for ourselves and to teach our children of the importance for service to humanity. Children dysfunctionally raised are, for the most part, very self-absorbed, have difficulty with empathetic reasoning, and have moral decision-making that retards the growth of the Supreme.

For a society to embark upon a sane and reasonable program of parental licensing would ultimately be the best for the sovereignty of the individual and for the good of the whole (of humanity).

Thanks for your time and interest.
Love & Service,

Personal Sovereignty

Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:49 pm +0000

As a point of interest, personal sovereignty is spoken of in The Urantia Book as an attribute attainable only for a Creator Son and is not mentioned in connection with mortals. So, whatever the concept that's attempting to be described by the use of those words regarding humans, it's probably better expressed with some other term if we want to stick with Urantia teachings.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:33 pm +0000

paper 5 page 71
Having thus provided for the growth of the immortal soul and having liberated man's inner self from the fetters of absolute dependence on antecedent causation, the Father stands aside. Now, man having thus been liberated from the fetters of causation response, at least as pertains to eternal destiny, and provision having been made for the growth of the immortal self, the soul, it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.

OK guys and gals, seems like we're getting somewhere. I think Bro Dave once posted that we are all at the beginning of our learning curve. This learning curve might be symbolized by the exponential algebraic function:


If you'll indulge me I have another question...

Does any being have the right to force another to comply with any type of mandatory program, such as parental licensing [or eugenics] by justification that its for "their own good" or its for the "good of the state" or that they're somehow "unfit" by using the pretense of government or religion?

Given the above quote, I think not. Because to my way of thinking, no one likes to be forced to do anything. And since the Father Himself grants this sovereignty, who has the right to gainsay it? Our world is full of petty tyrants who believe they do.

But if free-will beings having realized the personal sovereignty that comes with "inner knowing" that God is Our Father and we are all His children, choose to enroll in such voluntary racial enhancing programs and thereby demonstrate the personal responsibility which goes hand in hand with personal sovereignty, then they have indeed been liberated from the fetters of causation response pertaining to eternal destiny. [this is called Karma by some]

And the weeds can be more easily and lovingly pulled from the garden of Urantia without any violence or God-given personal sovereignty rights being violated. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Does Christ Michael use His personal sovereignty to force us to do something against our will? Or does even He respect our free-will dignity, because He knows quite well-it comes from the Universal Father? Our beloved Master is not a petty tyrant.

Let's consider the parable of the talents in relation to this topic and the learning curve symbolized by the exponential algebraic function. I realize this is going to be highly abstact, please bear with me.

Let b=the number of talents; b must be > or = to 1.
Let x=point on curve [any whole integer]; the individual.
Let f(x)=spiritual growth potential.

If b=1, then the learning curve is non-existant [a flat line] and demonstrates no spiritual growth potential.

If b=2, then the learning curve becomes readily apparent and demostrates spiritual growth potential.

As b=each higher number, [3,4,5, etc.] the learning curve becomes successively steeper, demonstrating greater spiritual growth potential, but at no time does it reach either zero or infinity for any value of x, if we were to plot this function on a graph.

page 1917
Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to "enter fully into the joy of their Lord." What a sorry sight for successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: "Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us." But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning.

By attempting to force others to comply against their will with any mandatory program, petty tyrants insure a negative learning curve, because they use their personal sovereignty and authority "over" others. The same goes for governments who also use authority "over" its citizens. The same goes for teachers who use their authority "over" their students. Parents who use their authority "over" their kids.

Christ Michael uses His vast Personal Sovereignty "with" us, but never "over" us. A positive learning curve.

The Lucifer Rebellion, on the other hand, is all about the negative learning curve.

The faith realization of inner knowing that God is Our True Father and we are all His growing children liberates us from the negative learning curve. By demonstrating increasing fruits of the Living Spirit in loving service to others, we exponentially increase our own personal learning curve, as well as the entire world, not to glorify ourselves, but to glorify Our True Father.

The greatest service is to help others increase their learning curve, not by being an authority "over" them, but by being an authority "with" them, because God is Our Father and we are all His growing children.

in my opinion,

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:35 pm +0000


The residents of New Orleans are being displaced (many against their wishes) becuse it it in the best interst of the whole = diseases, etc. When addressing personal sovereignty, we still have to "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and to God that which is God's".


Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:51 pm +0000

Randy asks if any person has the right to exert authority over another free-will being since spiritual authority does not do so.

Most likely there won't be much need for civil authority to be applied to anyone once the planet reaches light and life -- most people then will be spiritually self motivated. We're not there yet and have a long road to travel.

Even animals, who don't have free will, require authority by human beings if they're to be socialized. Parents are required to exert authority over children if the children are to grow to be healthy adults. Teachers must exhibit authority over their students if any learning is to occur. Society is governed by laws; the police are required to administer those laws by authority. Disregard for the law results in anarchy and a retreat into barbarism. Society can only exist if its members willingly yield to an authority outside of themselves.

The universe is designed on the spiritual framework of hierarchical authority. God is supreme, everything else is subordinate. Human beings are the lowest order of free will creatures in creation yet the spiritual administration does not exert spiritual authority or abrogate our free will. However, the law of the land requires us to adhere to civil authority which has nothing to do with such spiritual authority.

Parental Liscensing?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:12 pm +0000

Hello Randy & All,

Like it or not most of our children learn much of life's lessions from us, their parents. How we act, react and respond to life as a whole shapes their lives either directly or indireclty.

It is our responsibility to raise our children as honestly and truthfully as possible.

I believe we as parents will be held accountable for much of what our children do or don't do in this life. Yes they must answer for their own actions but it is up to the parnets to teach them right from wrong.

Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:12 am +0000

What happens when Caesar demands that we render unto him those things which belong to God? Those who are spiritually self-motivated always attempt to "play god." This is what happens when people are spiritualy self-motivated, in my opinion. And the dark world in which we find ourselves is the result.

Yes, society is governed by laws based upon selfishness and negativity. Which is precisely why we see them falling apart as they have no survival value.

Yes, residents of New Orleans and the Gaza Strip are being forced to leave for the good of all. When this happens to each and every one of us personally, as it will in the proper time, will we be sanguine in the knowledge we're doing our part for the good of all and leave our homes, jobs, family, property, pets and memories behind without complaint, as others are being forced to do, even now?

Animals who have no free-will, have little need to be socialized. They behave as they are created to be. Humans, on the other hand, need their domesticated animals [for food and so many other self-serving reasons] far more than these animals need humans. Selfish and insecure humans who have no personal sovereignty always attempt to control others, be they animal, vegetable, mineral, or human.

God is indeed supreme, and each one of us who is part of God the Supreme, are equals not subordinate; a valued part of the whole Body of Christ. Those who are not spiritualy part of God the Supreme attempt to force their material superiority upon others. Because they have nothing else.

That's right, because children learn its OK to force others to submit to their will; [might makes right, survival of the fittest, law of the jungle] our society is falling apart as each generation attempts greater abuse of free-will sovereignty. Children get plenty of example from television, parents, teachers, and other authority figures who attempt to force them to submit for their own good. Maybe we should force a foetus to obtain a license to be born? Everything else requires one.

Personally, I'm sick and tired of the dog-eat-dog world we have created for ourselves. Blaming everything upon the Lucifer Rebellion, only makes it stronger.

We have painted ourselves into a corner and there is only one way out of the mess we have created for ourselves.

The Fifth Epochal Revelation is predicated upon the unifying concept:

God is Our Father and we are all His growing children. There is no more room for "my" or "I" in this concept, because of the inherent selfishness and separation it promotes. The age of Light and Life cannot be realized by selfishness or separation. God the Supreme is about free-will beings who contribute to the good of all, not to the good of only themselves. There is only US; there is no "them." But some of us have chosen to not be part of God the Supreme.

Eleven kids found in cages in home
Couple denies abusing or neglecting children
Associated Press 9-13-05

WAKEMAN, Ohio - Sheriff’s deputies found 11 children locked in cages less than 3½ feet high inside a home, but a couple denied they had abused or neglected the children.

for complete story goto: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9319446/

Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:20 pm +0000

not thou reading full thread upon this day may i fair show my partial understanding of this matter.

i fair reminder of the belief of equal rights to all in sense of fair administration of beliefs to each individual. Let us not encourage the foolish transgression of base and unwise discourse between humans.

we must not encourage degenerate undertakings in unrealistic propagation... for we shall then see the day of regret and illusion but rather let us choose to see the encouragment among those worthy and able to prosper and facilitate fertility among the right peoples. For I am in remembrance of the saying 'it is a wise nation when it knows to cease growing,'

Live Wise.

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:55 am +0000

Very well said Arie!! and yet who among us can demonstrate full understanding in any matter, since we're all at the beginning of our learning curve? If by realizing inner spiritual growth, we demonstrate same in our actions, we become like a mountain climber whose goal becomes more difficult to reach, as he or she approaches the summit. But the steepness of the slope indicates relative spiritual growth potential. Even so, it takes an eternity to reach the summit. But collectively speaking, our world is approaching the next level which is indicated by the difficulty of issues facing our world today. If we weren't up to the challenge because of our relative spiritual growth potential, it wouldn't be so difficult.

In our own minds we always believe we're the right people, its always other people who are wrong. This is the seat of division, separation, and conflict which is the antithesis of God the Supreme.
in my opinion,

paper 158 page 1758
"No sooner does your faith grasp the identity of the Son of Man than your selfish desire for worldly preferment creeps back upon you, and you fall to discussing among yourselves as to who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven, a kingdom which, as you persist in conceiving it, does not exist, nor ever shall. Have not I told you that he who would be greatest in the kingdom of my Father's spiritual brotherhood must become little in his own eyes and thus become the server of his brethren? Spiritual greatness consists in an understanding love that is Godlike and not in an enjoyment of the exercise of material power for the exaltation of self.

Maybe I should clarify my reasons for bringing this article to this thread. It isn't my intent to judge the parents or authority figures of this article. I don't know any of them and will not presume to analyze their motives.

But to my way of thinking, this tragic story is highly symbolic of the dysfunctional type of love we express on this world. Rather than deal with the root causes of the emotional and behavioral problems these children demonstrate, they were deemed "unfit" instead and locked up in a brightly colored cage for "their own good."

On another level which is of course highly symbolic, the powers of selfishness in our world have presumed to lock us all in a cage which severely curtails our mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual liberty for "our own good", because to their way of thinking it is we who are "unfit."

By discovering the Father Within we can, individually and globally, break out of this symbolic cage which has long imprisoned us. But we can't do it alone; we need each other and Our True Father's help.
in my opinion,

Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:21 pm +0000

Rhermen... It is not my desire to sound like I am attacking you but I cannot at this moment with my head full of allergy to the most resent release of Oaks and Cedars. Come up with a more passive approach to your statements. Where in the world are you coming from!

You sound so personally offended by what is in truth a spiritually motivated desire to help children of the future to have a better chance at a life, and hopefully move us closer in to the Era Of Light And Life.

But No you sound like every thing you here has to be perceived through you own conspiracy filter. Which is not the case … Man give it up.

Gods work is being done by people with good intent and you seeing only the bad possible motives... is preventing you from seeing what is really in front of you.

Stay True To The Journey and Much Love

Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:58 pm +0000

Not to "down" Rhermen, but i agree with JB on this as most of your postings are negative. And i find it interesting that you discuss so much about parenting and the raising of children when you have not experienced it yourself. Or that is my understanding at the moment.

In my personal opinion, people without children can state all they want about what 'they think" is right or wrong......but only true parents can understand even without words the emotions of being a mother/father. I believe it even states somewhere in the UB that you have to actually be the "parent' of 3 children to learn of that relationship and sort of love. But i don't have my book by me so i cant' quote that.

The point is, I believe people who are in a "parental" position can only be judged by other parents. I guess it's the difference between experiencing "sympathy' and empathy".

Again, Rhermen, though this is a very evil tragedy, it happens everyday, and the evil can be far worst. Though i know you study to be a teacher, or are a teacher, i do wonder why you post so much in the family forum. Just curious. And this is not a stab at you. Though we havent' agreed in many areas, i do believe you are a very bright and smart individual. I just think you would do more in "teaching" if you took part in areas that fit more with your daily life.

Heck, I think you would make an excellent Father. Have you ever thought about fostering a child or having children of your own? Not for this particular article but in general the growth in you if you experienced that would be remarkable i think.

Sorry, just sorta rambling tonight.
Much love. Good to see you back around JB. :wink:

Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:50 pm +0000

I believe the topic here was parental lisencing? Well there are allready laws in place that effect who can and can't be parents. Just the last few posts have shown that if you are proven to be "unfit" as parents you can have your children taken away from you. But this does more damage to the children, who are innocent victims in a society that has become completely unfocused in it's moral and ethical values.

The children become dislocated from their parents, and stuck into a "ward of the State" system that has been proven to be completely uncertain of what kind of effects such an upbringing will have on them. I hate myself for having to put it this way! But in many cases these children would have been better off "not to have ever been born".

This same issue has been a large part of the arguement about abortion for years! Between "right to life" and "freedom of choice". And that same argument relates to a few of the last posts which argued about "free will". And one person (or the State) being able to force their will upon a free will creature.

First of all. The State is legally able to force it's will upon people. If the State decides that you deserve to be incarcerated, you will be! And during the time of your sentence, your "free will" is severely curtailed.

Secondly. There are many cases where one individual imposes their will upon another. With complete authority to do so from the State. The best example I can think of would be a Parent dealing with their Child. The Parent decides what the Child "can" or "can't" do. And the Child is expected to do what the Parent decides is best. In most cases the State will support the Parent's choices in such matters.

Please note: In some cases the Child still has the choice to decide to obey their Parents or not? Like if the Parent says, "Don't go to the Mall!" Or, "Be home by Ten!" The Child then has to choose to obey or not to obey? (That is the question?) And if the Child gets punished for disobeying, the State will fully support the Parents for their actions. (Provided that the parents use discretion regarding the severity of their punishments.)

In other cases, (Especially with smaller Children!) The Parents can make a choice of what the Child can or can't do. And the Parent can physically "force" the Child to obey. An example would be taking their Children to a Public Park. When the Parents decide it's time to go, the Children might cry and scream, "I DON'T WANNA GO!" But the Parents just pick them up, (Kicking and screaming!) and say, "WE'RE GOING!


Regarding the abortion issue: One thing that I personally find disturbing is that the decision is left totally up to the Mother in all cases. Giving no regard whatsoever to the thoughts and wishes of the Father.

There have been many cases of the Mother deciding to have the Child, even though the Father raises objections and wishes the Mother to have an abortion. I have no problem with this! But I would think that in such a case the Father should be able to deny responsibility. Both personally and financially. (I would only feel supportive of this action in such cases where the two Parents are not married.)

I have known of many cases where the Father and Mother were not married and the Father wanted to see the Child aborted, but the Mother decided to go ahead and have the Child. Then the Father is ordered to pay "Child Support". It is my personal opinion that the Father in such cases should not be forced to pay support for a Child that they adamantly opposed from the time of it's conception.

On the flipside of the argument. I recall a well publicised case up here in Canada (in Quebec 10 or 15 years ago?) where a married Woman was pregmant and she wanted to have an abortion. Her Husband was very adamant that he wanted her to fulfil her "Wifely duty" and give birth to "HIS" Child.

IMHO His arguement was totally reasonable. The couple wound up splitting up over the argument about the Child, and the situation wound up before the Quebec Courts. The Husband did get a Court Order for her to "NOT" get an abortion until the Courts had a reasonable time to decide if the Father of the Child had any rights in the matter. (We all know that there is a brief period of time that a Woman can wait and still safely get an abortion!)

When there were 2 or 3 weeks left before the Woman's safety would become an issue, the Woman travelled to the USA and had the birth aborted. I seem to recall that the Woman was sent to jail for disobeying the Court Order. (But I'm not all that sure?)

I found this situation appauling! And I would love to hear others opinions on this.

If a Woman has the right to go ahead and have a Child that the Father doesn't want. Should the Father have the right to demand that the Mother give birth to "HIS" Child against her will? Or would that be too much of a demand against her own "Free Will"?

Then again there's always the age old argument, "What about the Child's right to be born?"

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