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 Post subject: Parental Licensing?
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Are You Fit to Be a Parent?
by William Norman Grigg

Link to full article found at: The New American

Of course, a google search will yield far more than this one article..

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Last edited by rhermen on Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:38 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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I have spoken with Mr. Cline in the past and do not think his view is being represented correctly here. As for the rest... I don't know them or there true views but I do agree that some thing needs to be done on the home front of child care. And I have said to many as well as Cline that it would be a good idea to have parents take classes for the nine months of pregnancy to learn what it will mean to be a parent and receive a certificate in completion.

Furthermore I feel that if a parent can not pass such a class that they will have to give the child up to a temporary care until they can pass it, and if they can't, than that child should be given up for adoption.

The system that you have described here is one of concern and I would not support it in this form. But I do believe that dysfunctional families are the leading causes of social ills.

The next thing you might ask is what a dysfunctional family is. One that is not or can not attend to a childís basic need of Love, Understanding, Patients, and Forgiveness.

Money and social statis should not play a role in this.


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I have found some relevant info in UB Paper 72.

"Government on a Neighboring Planet" indicates that on a particular superior planet, in the most superior nation, individuals may marry upon reaching age 20 provided their parents agree. The individuals may marry without permission upon reaching age 25.

The home is the basic societal unit - with parents having the major responsibility with respect to child-rearing, and re religious training for the children.

It seems that in our own society, government agencies such as the Departments of Children and Family have done a so-so job in caring for children. Government does not seem equipped or even mandated to 'certify a good marriage' for parental rights.

It seems more valuable to EDUCATE citizens in general respecting what works in being a good parent. What skills are needed to be a good citizen, good parent, good person.

UB has given me a fresh and greater appreciation of government.
It has made me appreciate the value of how education, religion, and government work together in developing a superior society.

Nothing, however, takes the place of a family headed by wise, loving parents.......


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I agree Arie, how in the world can you trust a government with your precious children when they give Viagra to SEX OFFENDERS at the expense of the TAX PAYERS/PARENTS! ???

While they shun teaching \"morality\" or even integrity, they have no problem showing the 8th grade kids how to use plastic wrap for \"safe\" oral and anal sex! (on today's news) :shock:

IMHO, the inmates are running the asylum, and its past time we toss them out, and retake control.

Bro Dave :roll:

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 Post subject: Licensing parents
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Thanks Bro Dave!

A few thoughts on licensing parents:

- to be skeptical of our current government is okay, but...the morality of our leaders is a reflection of the morality of the population as a whole.
-Social change happens slowly, so the current rascals would be out of office before a real system of licensing parents would be in place.
- fear of something is a poor motivator, and is this the same fear expressed by "Finnie" in the Fellowship Herald: "On Remvoing the Barrier to A Civilized Discussion of Eugenics"? And the fear of a world government?
-Do you believe the Most Highs and other helpers would be in support of licensing parents?
-as on the Mansion Worlds, it is/would be a groups of experienced parents "dictating" who has/has not the required parental experience, and not the universe government.
-by supporting the concept of licensing parents, we add to the philosopical discussion about it, and just may increase moral awareness.

Thanks.
Buck Weimer
Pueblo, CO


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You know Buckeroo, maybe we are asking the wrong question. The problems of poor parenting come not at the point at which one is capable of procreating. They come from poor role models, and from parents too busy, too uninformed, or too willing to deligate their responsibility of raising their kids to become functional adults.
Our school system has in large measure, turned into a high cost babysitting institution, buffered from criticism by tenured teachers, many of whom are themselves unfit to teach.
We need to restructure the entire system to focus on creating functioning adult/citizen. We need to teach them how to use a checkbook, and how to make a budget, and how to manage anger, and how properly to dicipline kids, and how to communicate! We need to teach moralityas seen in the golden rule.
Yes, there are things that are simply WRONG! We need to teach integrity, and responsibility and the work ethic. And while we're at it, maybe a little music appreciation that broadened thier taste for the cacophonous stuff parent hate! :wink:
I just know we can do better. I know we darned well had better do better, or this US of A will become yet another "emerging" third world nation! :shock:

Bro Dave

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Bro Dave:

Thanks for the response. I agree with you on your points of view of the last message...with a few additions.

Our school system is laboring under a "dinosaur model" and is in desperate need of a "primate model". The old system worked well for the Industrial Revolution. For all intent and purposes, that is over. The world appears verging on the Age of Quality of Thought (Information Age). Education needs to be entirely experiencial, as you said, building stuff for use in the community, growing food to eat, and raising animals. Going to school to learn how to take tests is about as far from education as mortals are from Salvington.

On the issue of morality: having morality based on the Golden Rule may be a little too close to religion = separation of church/state. However, teaching moral reasoning based on Lawrence Kohlberg's six stages of moral reasoning, and Jean Piaget's earlier work on cognitive and moral development is by far and away the best available. Then, teachers could use moral dilemmas in real life as the way of learning. How a student solves a moral dilemma is an indicator of their developmental stage of morality. This way, a teacher could then introduce them to the next higher level. A person cannot use higher levels of moral reasoning if they don't know what it is or have never been exposed to it.

Back to licensing parents: Setting up a system for parents to get license on a VOLUNTARY bases would be the best start. Then, over time, data could be established to show how it improves marriages & family life. LIke saying, doctors with a license have better patient outcome than do those without a license. And, having a parenting license in a frame on the wall would become a sought after status symbol.

Anway, just a few thoughts.
Are you going to Philadelphia? If so, hope to see you there.
In Loving Service,
Buckaroo


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Aloha...On our island we too have much of the same problems as others. Inadequate this and poor that. More and more charter schools are emerging and the public is starting to pay attention and more money is appropriated from the state. From my understanding, a CEO is at the helm instead of a principal and it is run like a corporation. Much more freedom is allowed ie. drug counceling, hands on experience off campus, and much more. Creative thinking is encouraged. I like it and the kids/teachers sure do. They are not under the broken thumb (ouch) of the DOE yet must adhear to the standard ie. testing. The proof is in the pudding. Hopefully it will be a win-win situation.

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buckaroo wrote:
... Back to licensing parents: Setting up a system for parents to get license on a VOLUNTARY bases would be the best start. Then, over time, data could be established to show how it improves marriages & family life. LIke saying, doctors with a license have better patient outcome than do those without a license. And, having a parenting license in a frame on the wall would become a sought after status symbol.

Unfortuantely, those most in need of "parental upgrading", are the least likely to apply for a license. While those who would seek the status of having the license on their wall, by definition, and achievers.

However, I agree that we need to bring the "consumers" of our "educational products" into the mix! Education should guarantee our kids can actually DO something when they graduate. (the goal in many places is literally EVENTUALLY to have them be able to read their diploma!) :roll:

Bro Dave

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I have been interested in the topic of healthy parent for years.

1) Because of my not so pleasent upbring from my parents.

2) Because of what I experience every day working with kids that have drug and alcohal problems.
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And there is no line that I can fine that devides the poor from the rich on this issue. there is a need for parent to prove they are fit to be parent. That is the descussion, is it not.

Now the schools are a point of interest but for now that is not going to happen fast enough to help the kids being born right now. We as a society need a healthy way to insure a childs right to a loving family. Localy first and federaly if we can't do it any other way.

What I have seen over the years goes beyond belief. something must be done!


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Hey J. Barry! I thought you were Stephen Segal. (In the movie "Hard to Kill".) LOL!
--------------------------------------

On issue: I think one major problem today is the "Welfare State" that has become very dominant in today's society. Complete areas of our cities are sectioned off for "Welfare Mothers", many of whom are living by the mentality that "The more kids they have, the bigger their monthly check will be." What does this say for the art of Parenting?

(I apologise to any Welfare Mothers that might be reading this string and be offended. I'm not really talking about any individuals. More about society in General.)

But I have known one woman who had her 1st child when she was 18 years old, and went on welfare. When her daughter was about to turn 18 years old, she herself was 35 years old and about to be cut off of welfare. So she went out and (With no other intent!) got pregnant so that she could stay on welfare for another 18 years. I figured that if she has another kid when she's 46 years old, it will keep her on welfare until she hits 65 and her old age pension kicks in.

(Believe it or not! The woman I'm talking about is the person that introduced me to the Urantia Book.)

IMHO anyone that blatently abuses and takes advantage of the system like that is a core problem to a lot of things that need to be addressed. It's someone who is stressing the point of wanting to be a "good" parent, while sherking their responsibility as a citizen.

Another problem that truly intertwines with this is the problem of employment. In the USA alone there are several thousand people that would greatly prefer to be a productive member of society than to be a burdon upon it. But the employment opportunities are simply not there. It seems like for every job that becomes available, there are a thousand applicants. Either that or jobs are too specialized, and there are not enough people with the education to take the challenge.

I have long said that I think that there should be a system in place where those who couldn't find a place of employment in the private sector could approach their closest GVMT offices and say, "I can't find employment on my own. Can you put me to work doing something?"

I'm sure there are a lot of things that society could come up with to enable every person to at least have a chance to be a part of the global process. And people could be made proud of the contribution that they are making towards society.

But as it is society has a system in place where many people can collect a greator income by staying home than they would make in the workforce if they were earning minimum wage, so a great big Catch-22 situation rears it's head.

Plus the rules of Capatilist Society rule out allowing the GVMT to compete with Private Enterprise. I'm sure the Automotive Industry (And the UAW) would be up in arms if the GVMT were to form a competative opponent.

I have thought of a few things that people could put together without having much affect on Private Industry. But then again I am weighing Private Industry against Environmental Impact.

One gr8 thing would be having people pick weeds (by hand) in our cities' parks instead of running a combine over them spraying herbacides and insecticides. Certainly John Deer would lose out on a sale or two. And the herbacide companies might sell a few less tons of DDT. But it would give a lot of people something productive to do with their lives.
---------

I've heard a lot of nicknames for the Ghetto sections of our big cities. "Skid Row!", "No Daddy Lane or Alley", etc. And I came up with a useful idea of how to make the dwellers in these areas productive members of society.

Create factories of sorts where they could produce products that are not in competition with anything. "Create Ozone" with no other purpose than to efficiently patch the sky. Create desalination plants to provide fresh water. Get to the task of planting and growing food on what are currently Desert Wastelands. There are a lot of things that could be done?

Regarding the huge Housing Complexes themselves. Have them set up where the adult occupants would be expected to leave their children in the hands of others in the community "four days a week" while they went to work. And spending "one day a week" taking care of the children of others. (And to educate the children while they were at it too.) Leaving two days a week to exercise their "True" Parenting abilities.

NO MORE FREE RIDES! WE JUST CAN'T AFFORD THEM! Anyone who is capable of doing their part should be expected, (And given an opportunity to?) be a part of a productive society.

Hey! The current system might be the best game in town? But I think that if "we the people" put our heads together. We can make an even better one.

Peace!
KARLUS


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Why is it that this subject is being avoided..( better parents )

This has nothing to do with economic status or being brought up inside of poverty. There are bad parents in all social levels of society.

We need to bring about some changes that will affect all children. So there mental health, spiritual health, as well as there physical health is guaranteed. Or at least given a fighting chance.

I don’t care if a mother is using the system to get by as long as she is loving here children and seeing to there P.M.S. need.

All of our social problems will disappear if we raise healthy children into adults. For they will be armed with a stronger emotional and intellectual character to better deal with life’s problems.

Do not take offence I mean no attack on your last comment... just a re-focusing of the real issue on this post.

Stay true to the Journey


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No offense taken Mr. Barry. But I do see a direct connection between employment opportunities and parenting. If a family is brought up in poverty conditions they are much more likely to become disolutioned from what would be thought of as proper family values.

I have seen so many of these families growing up in Tenament (sp) Housing. And the gross neglect that these children face is appauling to say the least.

There is a local housing project just down the street from me. I know of one young woman that has two girls. (11 and 8.) The mother sits the kids down and tells them to do their homework. The older girl does her own work. Then she takes her younger sister's homework and does it for her. Therefore the younger girl is basically learning nothing. Her older sister is doing all of her work for her.

Meanwhile the Mother is not even paying attention. She's too busy smoking Pot in the basement with her friends. And when the kids leave for school, she sees it as if they have been sent to the babysitter's, and she has some free time to herself. I don't call this parenting!

But this kind of thinking is just as prevelant in wealthy neighborhoods as it is in poor ones. Families with both parents working and neither one having 5 minutes a day to get involved in the lives of their children. That's what Parenting is! Getting involved in your children's lives.

Eg: Even if your child makes it to the National Spelling Bee. It's not enough that you show up to watch. You must spend time with your kids on a day to day basis. Making sure that they are learning the right things.

If you send your kids off on the school bus every morning, and leave their entire education up to the teachers in their school. The kids are bound to learn not much more than nothing. You can't come home from work saying, "I'm too tired to help you. Do it yourself."

AFAIC children should be taught the basics of reading (at least) by their parents. And children should not start school until age 10. Any organized schooling before that age isn't much more than glorified Daycare.

Any person can teach a child to count, or spell, without much difficulty.

Here's an idea! Regarding families growing up in tenament housing? Give the "unemployed" parents "course material" to guide their children through the basics of Reading, wRiting, and aRithmatic. And make it a requirement that the children learn enough from their parents to pass some kind of standardized testing when they reach the age of 10, before they can join the public schools.

As it is. Parents shove their kids into the system and rely totally upon the school teachers to teach them. I have even seen parents get all crazy with the teachers if their children fail their classes. They place the blame on the teachers for "supposedly" failing to do their jobs.

It might be a teacher's job to teach. But it iis the PARENT's job to make sure that their children learn.


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Thanks to everyone who has participated on this thread!!!! My hat's off to all of you. So many valid points, I don't know how to respond.

As some of you may know, I'm attending a two-year college, working on my first degree majoring in pre-teaching elementary. I enrolled with the intention of becoming a sixth-grade science teacher. Not being in any big hurry to graduate, I currently have 67 credit hrs. towards an Associate Arts Degree and have been attending the same institution since January, 2003. During this time, the requirements to obtain this degree and declared major, have changed. Same for working educators who now spend far more time on classroom management, first, then making sure they comply with the new state and federal requirements, as per No Child Left Behind, second. [and then if there's still time left at the end of the day-a little teaching]

Yes, J.B. we are pretty much on the same page. But let me ask you, in your professional capacity, have you found any parents who do not feel they've done their absolute best to provide for their child's basic need of Love, Understanding, Patience, and Forgiveness? Regardless of their socio-economic status, chemical dependencies, or dysfunctional qualities? I am of the opinion that most if not all parents believe they've done their best for their kids no matter how dysfunctional they appear.

Yes, fatboy2, I also value paper 72 of the UB as well as material from other faith movements which unfortunately cannot be discussed on TruthBook.

Yes, Arie, your point is well taken. But then the government, through NCLB, dictates to educators what they should or shouldn't teach in the classroom. Failure to comply with NCLB results in loss of funding. Teachers are far more accountable in the classroom [now] than parents are in the home. Or for that matter, the politicians who make the laws.

Yes, Bro Dave, the inmates are running the asylum, but they don't believe themselves to be insane. Toss them out and take control? Sounds great if it can be done peacefully and legally, but first we may have to prove they're insane...

buckaroo, you make some great points which are of couse reflected in the UB, but where does personal sovereignty fit in? Increasing moral awareness is part of why I started the thread. Examination of personal sovereignty, still another part.

Yes, again Bro Dave, school has turned into a high cost baby sitting instution. There are teachers who are unfit to teach. There are also doctors who are unfit to practice medicine. Politicians unfit to govern. Lawyers unfit to practice law. Mechanics unfit to work on cars. Parents unfit to raise children. [et. cetera]

No matter what Other People we may believe are unfit in this discussion
I seriously doubt they would believe it of themselves. Therefore, in my opinion, it does no good to place blame. Indeed, one wrong step and parents are far more likely to blame the teacher if their child has problems at school. Statistically, 40% of all new teachers quit within the first five years of teaching. Its far easier for teachers to be sued or lose their jobs, than to take a problem child out of class due to unfit parenting or social incompatiblity.

But believe it or not, some teachers make a huge difference in their communities, even with one hand tied behind their back. With all due respect, have any of you perhaps had a chance to go to class with your child or grandchild, recently, to see what actually goes on in the classrooms of today firsthand? I suspect if your child [or grandchild] is 3rd grade or younger, you may be pleasantly surprized at how much they learn nowadays and how much fun they have doing it. But unfortunately, this isn't the case for older students.

buckaroo, voluntary licensing of parents does seem like a good start, but it would probably be a case of preaching to the choir. Education is attempting to keep up with the changing needs of society. Educators, for the most part, understand the huge responsibility they have towards society. But the No Child Left Behind Act of 2002 is all about taking tests. Therefore the most academically challenged student sets the learning pace for the whole class. Have you ever attempted to push a chain? This analogy describes what educators of today must do in class. [or else no money from the state or fed.] Does parenting attempt to keep up with the changing needs of society? I think not.

tootsie, if I understand your post, charter schools are growing in popularity, but public schools are not a corporation run for profit. But if it keeps Uncle Sam out of the classroom, it does sound like a win-win situation.

Indeed yes, J.B. all manner of professionals are licensed or certified in some manner. Even drivers are licensed [but that is topic for another thread]. Only parents [or politicians] need no license.

Karlus, very well said!! But I can't help but wonder, the people you've mentioned, do they believe they're abusing or taking advantage of the system? Contributing to society or being a burden upon it. You're right there are many things that could be done, but they probably won't be done unless corporate profit could be made. Meanwhile those who receive a monthly check have probably convinced themselves they deserve it without picking up trash or doing any work whatever. Far easier to drink or do drugs.

Would society benefit from parental licensing? My answer is no. Not until everyone takes full responsibilty for their choices as free-will beings of full personal sovereignty should. This includes the decision to bring a child into the world. As we all know, it takes both a woman and a man to bring a child into the world. And yet society demands little accountability or training from parents.

Me and resposibility have never been best friends. The more I learn about the system, from classes I've taken, teachers' websites, and actual classroom observation & experience, as well as all points brought up on this thread; the less I like the idea of becoming a teacher or a parent.

I'm beginning to have serious doubts about becoming a teacher, especially since I'm not a parent. To accept the level of responsibility which society demands that educators take for children they did not choose to bring into the world, seems to be a greater burden than I'm willing to bear at this time. Since I've had serious problems taking responsibility for myself and my own choices throughout my life, maybe I better set my goals a little bit lower. Yes, fear of responsibility is most definately part of this doubt. But then it would be foolish to bite off more than I can chew.

It would seem that prospective parents should also consider the responsibility of their actions beyond the pleasure of the moment, that is.

Randy

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Last edited by rhermen on Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:50 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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