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 Post subject: Re: Authority over woman
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Thanks Jo and Gerdean for helping me to
better understand the Womans View on this Issue .
Surely the revelators could / should have used / chosen
a better word, or a phrase
Even something like Sibling/s would be Better .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibling

A Analogy for Men would be like
the Johnny Cash Song
'' A Boy Named Sue ''
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnyca ... edsue.html


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What a relief, Coop....someone else "gets it". Although I had never read all the words to "A Boy Named Sue" before it does show how differently the genders think. :shock:

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Since they had to make up a word, or a phrase -- Thought Adjuster or Mystery Monitor or God Fragment -- to describe the still small voice within, and they made up other words where ours were inadequate, it would have been nice to have found terminology that didn't perpetuate the sense of second-rate citizenship that women were given by Paul when he undertook to override Jesus emancipation of women 2,000 years ago!

You know, Gerdean....I've also (often) wondered why the revelators kept this quirk intact, and the only thing I can figure is that they were not going to interfere with the need for us human beings to experience the learning and understanding of all that goes beyond, before and within those those gender biased words. We have to make those basic changes within ourselves, one person at a time. So why the sometimes painfully descriptive details in all the other areas of the FER? If we were able to study the UB continually we would still be unable to understand it all. Also, there must be an infinite amount of information that has been left out because it's just too far above our capabilities to understand (at this time) and/or....they are aware that some things, like our basic human frailties (such as our biases, fears, anger, etc.) have to be lived through in order to learn from. There's a ton in those Papers that I don't understand, but I do know that it is all about what we take/learn /pass on from our experiences.
So many of those experiences are just flat out painful...and we're terribly stubborn (well, I am and doubt that I'm alone).

There. Needed to say that...and it did help my frustration level (for now) :wink: ....thanks.

Jo

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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There are a number of issues in TUB that tend to make readers uncomfortable. If it's not new, not bold, not provocative and challenging then it's old, rehashed, conformed thought and not revelation at all.

I'm sure each of you can cite the references that explain why specific terminology has been used for any of those challenging concepts -- which have been discussed in depth for over 50 years now -- knowing the words and absorbing the meaning are obviously separate issues. I think the distinction between a reader of the book and a student of the book is that readers fight its proclamations, wanting them to be adjusted to their preconceptions while students choose to accept that it's they whose attitude requires some adjusting. Didn't Lucifer also find fault with the Divine plan, thinking that his ideas were better and that the Most Highs lacked wisdom? I see this not as a language and semantics problem but as an ego issue. It's too bad these challenges are still regarded as stumbling blocks, but I believe that one of the functions of the revelation is to help make them into stepping stones toward a better understanding of our place in the cosmos.

Larry


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Well, considering Jo and I are the only ones expressing our concerns, and considering we are both women, I guess the implication that we are willful and not to be taken seriously because we are only readers and not genuine students like the guys are (otherwise we would not even think such thoughts, much less make verbal note of them), will prevail.

Rather than insulting our intelligence and our spiritual integrity by implying we are Luciferian, I would think it better to validate our perspective and suggest that it be regarded as one of those things, like scientific discovery, that could not be addressed by the revelators, things that must needs wait until the coming of its own time.

Who in the Forum would even have thought to question such verbiage? Women's lib had not come into its own during the writing of the Urantia Papers. It was helped along by the Industrial Revolution, but didn't really get rolling until the 60's.

You're welcome.

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Its a Valid Issue

'' Anything but Sue! I still hate that name! ''


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Larry, I believe I've done more than just "fight its proclamations". The revelators weren't sloppy and considering the extremes they went to with the other verbiage they must have had a good reason for retaining the male terminology. I just don't happen to believe it was for the purpose of exalting the male. Like I said...it's something we mere mortals are supposed to deal with individually, the females along with the males, in order to evolve.

It takes much more than surface level reaction...something we have both been guilty of on occasion. The knee jerk reaction of defense whenever this is questioned illustrates how much more understanding is needed for all of us.

This is evidently one of those stepping stones so I don't see any problem with it being brought up, although it will be eons before we come to terms with and learn to respect (and appreciate) our differences. I'll wager that this may even be the point of it all~~~

Cheer!

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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Calling a woman a son of God can make her uncomfortable. That is understood. Properly developed intellect should be sex neutral. Yes, mortal experiences can not be sex neutral; however, true spiritual experiences are also sex neutral. As we ascend, we have no more sex, but still distinct as Fatherlike and Sonlike, not in sex sense anymore. It is just like Christ Michael is a Mercy dominated Son, or He is Sonlike as a Creator Son.

Another consideration should be taken is that evolutionary languages are developed due to the presence of indwelling spirit forces, certain terms have deeper spiritual connections, or more spirit related. "a son of God" can invoke higher spiritual reaction than "a child of God." or "a daughter of God".

When we have personal experiences with the Father, we do not experience any sex connotation. Father and Son as cosmic concepts appear long long long before mortal sex concepts such as son, daughter, mother, father and etc. In fact, mortal sex concepts are derivatives of Father and Son concepts. Sex differentiation is just a mortal peculiarity, or animalistic legacy.

To properly examine terminology used by the revelators, we should consider what are their concepts, and what are ours. Theirs are developed way way way earlier than ours. If we truly experience their concepts, we automatically choose their concepts over ours when certain word symbols are used. That a mortal is called a son of God has nothing to do with being male or female, but with the truth this very person had received a personality as well as a Thought Adjuster from God. A son is a living vehicle with a personality given by the Father.


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Quote:
"a son of God" can invoke higher spiritual reaction than "a child of God." or "a daughter of God".

Maybe for you and for some others but certainly not for everyone. Can't lay a blanket over that and make it fit all.

Actually,Tony...I believe we may very well be talking about two different concepts due to our different perspectives. It will take time and effort but it will all come together.
Jo

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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Hi jak,

You said "I just don't happen to believe it was for the purpose of exalting the male." Goodness no! If that has ever been suggested here by anyone I've missed it. Maybe that's the chord this issue strikes with you -- if so then I think you're reading intentions not proposed by the text. Neither is the purpose of the race discussion to exalt the blue or white race.

Larry


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Hey, Larry....poor choice of words on my part. I really don't believe anyone on this thread is doing that intentionally.

Let's say there's a room full of 20 people, half male and half female...and half of those two groups are African America, half Caucasian. One person is holding a mirror...no other mirrors around and no one knows what they look like until they view themselves in that mirror. Wonderful! Astounding!

But what if only the half that are female and Caucasian are allowed to view themselves...and they in turn tell the others that they will describe "for them" what they look like? And what if that percentage told the others that they represented them, they understood how they felt so they would explain to them why they didn't need to view themselves?

Does that help explain what I'm struggling to say? Maybe...a little bit?

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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"And what if that percentage told the others that they represented them, they understood how they felt so they would explain to them why they didn't need to view themselves?"

And not just physically! But mentally, emotionally, and psychically as well! Even spiritually we are not the same. Only our Thought Adjusters are the same, and look at the lengths they go to acquire our male and/or female personality. They don't care if they end up as a male or a female for gender has no bearing on whether and how well the Adjuster can express the Father's will, so why limit half the Thought Adjusters in service by stiffling their mortal associate's personality as being not worth mentioning?

The very idea that "son of God" would hold more power for someone than "child of God" or "daughter of God" reinforces the inequality of the term and the subsequent effect of its erroneous nature on men and women the world over. Women and men do not think alike, so women don't need men to do their thinking for them, or holding the mirror up to themselves and telling women how they should look, or think, or behave, or believe, or worship, or serve.

Maybe the Revelators figured that with the challenges Urantia would need to overcome (i.e., the legacy of Lucifer and the Adamic default), they would throw in a little gender competition just to keep things lively. You know the Princess never did sleep well with that pea in her mattress, so maybe that was their way of keeping us women on our toes -- to make sure you guys don't rest, either, until this planet is settled in light and life!

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I relish this topic even as it repulses me. What I wrote previous is exactly why I dearly love it...I believe that it has been left to us to grapple with, chew on, spit on (at times) and live through until (one by one) we come to appreciate and thrill to the unique differences in our spiritual and psychic identities. It is a highly charged subject for most, male and female. Least anyone makes the mistake of believing it is only a few females that have difficulty with the male terminology in the UB all one has to do is read over the convoluted responses that attempt to enlighten us into understanding that it really isn't "important", and then go to great lengths to defend the position that we really are son's, like in this link:
http://www.truthbook.com/spiritual_advice/labels/gender.cfm
That was a question presented in 2009 to TruthBook. I don't know the woman who wrote in or who the responder was, but I'm fairly certain the response was written from the male perspective.

It all makes perfect sense when a person is coming from the mental position of a higher level of security...and what better type of security for an ego than to have all scriptures, and now the FER, prop up that mental position. We are very aware that those crystallized scriptures have filtered into and shaped our laws, our courts, our entire planetary thought process.

But if you were to flip the script? Unfortunately (or not) a person has to have a pressing reason to do some honest gut-level soul searching. Most don't unless under some type of internal or external duress.
We all see the results of this type of ego running amuck continually in the news...but do we stop long enough to look at what's underneath it? I'm not saying this is all men's fault, or all women's fault. I'm saying that the competition and all that results from it is horrific...it's killing us and is an affront to our souls. But it is also a daunting task to set aside an ego for any length of time in order to look for the truth. I fail at it regularly but I am also able, with help, to actually do so on occasion. And always, without exception, another window is thrown open that allows me to let go of the need for a perceived security and lay hold to a piece of truth. Sometimes I'm not too thrilled with that truth but I needed to see it.

I believe this need of one human to place themselves above another human (if only in their mind) is at the core of our wars, greed, lust for power, etc. and it spills into every other area to some degree. Many UB readers enjoy dwelling on the prospect of coming into the area of Light and Light...yet they fail to see the many nuances of behavioral and mental adjustments that will come into play before we get to that far off point of existence. This topic serves to highlight one of our core problems yet we can only scratch the surface by addressing the words used. If the "words" cause such a high angst...then there must be more under the surface.

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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Thought Father, Word Son, a son is an expression of the Father. Spirit essence can only be indicated by mindal concepts which have a gradient of closeness to the Spirit. In other words, concepts such as "son of God", "child of God" and "daughter of God" can be measured impartially. Subjective reactions to these symbols have little significance in terms of spiritual economy of the realm.

It is difficult to assimilate the Urantia Papers impartially within as scientists study the external reality objectively without. We create our own stumbling blocks if we are unable to treat our inner reality impartially and our outer world objectively.

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New meanings only emerge amid conflict; and conflict persists only in the face of refusal to espouse the higher values connoted in superior meanings.


It is stupid to take every concept from the revelators without truly experiencing the spirit value connoted. Such is no different from a machine. It is equally unproductive not to spiritually discern who has the higher value when there are conceptual conflicts. When you discover a concept is greater than the revelators' in terms of spirit value, teach your brethren.

Sooner or later, each son of God must learn to be impartial within and objective without in order to serve in the Kingdom more effectively. Your subjectivity will impede the Spirit from manifesting.

As far as ideas goes, they can only reinforce the spirit values behind them only when they are taken without subjectivity. Spirit value can never be subjective. If some of your personal values are violated by the revelators, those values are more likely not of spiritual significance.

In spiritual sense, the Adjusters are uniform, so we are one in terms of the highest value within us. Mindally, each son is on a different gradient as far as reasoning ability goes. Until we all reached the point of impartiality, we can only subjectively argue without much value in spirit reality. When we become impartial and objective, we discern the Spirit more clearly and act more wisely.

Let's not hide behind our subjectivity, and go where the Truth may lead.


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As I said, Tony...it is very difficult to flip that script. Most humans need a good reason (or are forced by circumstances) before they become willing to do an honest search for a possible bias in their perceptions.

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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You're right, Tony, when you say: "If some of your personal values are violated by the revelators, those values are more likely not of spiritual significance." Our concern about the overuse of the male pronoun in the UBook is not likely of spiritual significance. As has been said, we can rise above this. Can and have and did and do rise above this. All the time. But it is humanly significant. Just as marriage is "humanly sacred," gender has a special place in the hearts and minds of us mortal creatures. It is part of our identity, our personality manifestation (and if you think it isn't, let somebody cut off your tallywacker and see how you feel about your manhood).

Just as the word "love" is inadequate to describe the value God places on his myriad creations, so are pronouns inadequate to describe the value God places on his myriad creations. I would have liked to see a disclaimer to that effect but I can live without it. I could live without it a lot easier if I didn't see so many men taking it literally.

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