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 Post subject: Re: Authority over woman
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But when things turn stormy, we work together.... each excercising whatever authority is required to pull the vessel thru the tumultous seas.


I like this Al..I agree....like I said earlier...it's a moment by moment, situation by situation,situation...

God Bless...

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Glad this thread was started....very important. Given me much to think about when trying for a healthy balance. I think it works differently for different women and which ever way it works best for them is likely right. If a women has married a truly spiritual man, and he is a very considerate leader who is highly capable of good decisions....well she may want to defer to his authority often. These days women are often highly educated.... rate of women entering university might even be higher than men at this point..remember something about that in one of my diversity classes. This often changes how decisions are made.

In my house...the one who has the most experience and knowledge on the subject....gets bulk of final decision making authority for that individual decision...it is moment by moment thing and usually a team effort. I am the budget master though and will have to keep in mind to be respectful and sympathetic with that extra authority. Some would say I am so tight....I split my pennies before I send them out to pay the bills :mrgreen:

My current situation is the boyfriend wants to get married...I'm foot dragging hard...I was married to my daughter's father extremely young. He was 17 years older and from India...talk about someone who wanted full authority! He has mellowed..thanks to my kid polishing his rough spots.

While I think about this authority thing and try to decide if I am ready to give longterm authority over me in a sense.... gonna catch some waves, hook some fish....keeping things joyful.
I like what Al said about both having authority over each other. I see that in the acts of commitment and trust. Yep...like playing on deck...love glassy seas...and when acting as a loving team....rough seas are fun too :D

Loving life too Al :D Got to share a quick part of how I raised my very stubborn daughter...found a unique meaning for the word discipline and when I saw it...knew it was how I would be a Mom. To discipline is to educate with love and humor.....works outstanding. O:)

When I think about it...there is a part of me that wishes for that highly spiritual leader....I guess I feel like building that kind of trust in an individual while still maintaining my full intellectual expression and value would be nice. I think coming under authority in that circumstance might be similar to trusting the Father....coming under his authority and doing his will. That divine family concept...sounds pretty loving and effective to me.

In hospitality we are taught that authority means to support....not to control...I like that idea....authority should be supportive and not controlling.


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In hospitality we are taught that authority means to support....not to control...I like that idea....authority should be supportive and not controlling.


I'm not sure if it could be said better than that.


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I have heard it said that caring is the sunny side of control.

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Howdy.

Just a little tidbit from my homepage quotes of the day:

"For most of history, Anonymous was a woman."
Virginia Woolf

Peace,
Lee


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It was Anonymous because She was!

And then she (Virginia Woolf) published "A Room of Her Own" which saw her (Woman), name in print and we haven't settled down into obscurity since. Our liberation has been a long time coming.

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[quote="tootsie"]Well...I have been doing some research as to where this thinking came from...It was Paul of Tarsus, in his teachings of which founded many of the doctrines of the church today...

1 Corinthians 11: 3-12 speaks of the topic posted here...then on to the UB search to learn more about Paul...much is said but include this quote...
--snip*----


Ya know, I never much cared for Paul when I was growing up, and even much less after I was an adult. I ran into a LOT of his influence on Christianity, and it was intensely distasteful. It was Paul in large part that turned me into an atheist in my early 20's.

Thankfully I found the Urantia Book and emerged from that with spiritual life.

a.


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Amy...I am amazed at your early discernment regarding Paul...me growing up was taught the scriptures came from God...period end of story...I threw the baby out with the bathwater and was quite surprised years later that Jesus came to me as my Guru and shortly thereafter found the UB.... :wink:

Stay safe, my friend...

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tootsie wrote:
Amy...I am amazed at your early discernment regarding Paul...me growing up was taught the scriptures came from God...period end of story....


Hi Tootsie,

Well during my early adult life I was quite intensely searching for the truth, and I had a library of philosophic and religious thought. It included everything from Gurdieff and P.D. Ouspensky, to Hobbes, Kant, Rouseau, Hegel, Goethe, Leibniz, DesCarte, Nietzsche, William James, et al, on through Bertrand Russell, who eventually became my patron philosopher after my alienation from the religions of tradition as we find them today.

Nietzsche I pretty much rejected out of hand, He just left a very bad taste in my mouth and I had to believe in better than the abject nihilism he espoused. Rouseau was a scoundrel I could not respect at all and his Social Contract I decided was trash upon learning about his grotesque and amoral private life. I relished Voltaire's response to his book glorifying the noble savage in man's primitive state in which Voltaire said:

"I have received your new book against the human race, and thank you for it. Never was such a cleverness used in the design of making us all stupid. One longs, in reading your book, to walk on all fours. But as I have lost that habit for more than sixty years, I feel unhappily the impossibility of resuming it. Nor can I embark in search of the savages of Canada, because the maladies to which I am condemned render a European surgeon necessary to me; because war is going on in those regions; and because the example of our actions has made the savages nearly as bad as ourselves."


Gurdieff was just plain too metaphysical and mystical as was his acolyte P.D. Ouspensky, while Bertrand Russell in his History of Western Philosophy made wonderful sense to me, and echoed my own observations on the religions of the day, including his views on Paul, the Apostle who never sat at the Master's knee.

When I found the Urantia Book in 1976 I was astounded. I buried myself it it. Here was real and discernible truth that made sense in every way, and in which I could punch no holes, and I was very very good at punching holes in dogma.

a.


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You go, girl. We need more whistle blowers from the feminine perspective. Even the Gods, it seems, discards our point of view. The UB touts Paul as being "The Great Compromiser" and lauds his efforts which have carried the news of Jesus (if not "the good news" of Jesus' gospel) forward these last two millennia, even as he has swept women under the rug in the process. Paul has done matriarchy no favor whatsoever! Instead of being highly respected for their experiential wisdom, elderly women in our culture are considered worthless, useless, costly, and having nothing of value to contribute. It's a travesty.

Today hundreds of thousands of women remain in poverty and ignorance because Paul told men that it would be better to do without than to lay with a woman. What kind of absurd counsel is that for humankind to follow? Talk about throwing women under the bus!!! And he did this on the heels of Jesus "emancipation proclamation" for women (as noted on the bottom of Jak's posts). Women today -- next door to you -- cannot think for themselves because they believe a man is supposed to do their thinking for them (witness the quintessential love story "Casablanca" as an example). Women today -- next door to you -- allow themselves to be verbally and emotionally abused because they don't have enough self-esteem to stand up to it. ("You're just like your mother." "Don't be ridiculous." "Where do you think you're going?") Women today -- next door to you and maybe even in your own livingroom -- still believe the husband should wear the pants in the family and wives should obey their every command and fulfil their every desire. (Botox Rules) All because Mr. Paul -- who never did sit at the Master's knee -- got a wild hair to go down in history as the guy with the marketing campaign that created a new religion.

Even Bertrand Russell had some peculiar ideas about Authority Over Women. Isn't he the one who said "A woman should be a lady in the parlor, a cook in the kitchen, and a whore in bed"?

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Gerdean wrote:


Even Bertrand Russell had some peculiar ideas about Authority Over Women. Isn't he the one who said "A woman should be a lady in the parlor, a cook in the kitchen, and a whore in bed"?


Hmmm... don't remember him saying that, though I've heard it said by someone. I was just glad to read his criticisms of the religions of the day, such as,

"if you want someone to believe that because Adam ate an apple all who have never heard of this event will be roasted in Hell by a benevolent deity for eternity you must keep them stupid, and carefully isolate them from all books and people capable of leading them to think."

a.


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I feel like I can't say anything here without being branded as a sexist, so I'll let the FER do the talking...

Science, not religion, really emancipated woman; it was the modern factory which largely set her free from the confines of the home. Man’s physical abilities became no longer a vital essential in the new maintenance mechanism; science so changed the conditions of living that man power was no longer so superior to woman power.

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(937.1) 84:5.8 These changes have tended toward woman’s liberation from domestic slavery and have brought about such a modification of her status that she now enjoys a degree of personal liberty and sex determination that practically equals man’s. Once a woman’s value consisted in her food-producing ability, but invention and wealth have enabled her to create a new world in which to function — spheres of grace and charm. Thus has industry won its unconscious and unintended fight for woman’s social and economic emancipation. And again has evolution succeeded in doing what even revelation failed to accomplish.

(937.1) 84:5.9 The reaction of enlightened peoples from the inequitable mores governing woman’s place in society has indeed been pendulumlike in its extremeness. Among industrialized races she has received almost all rights and enjoys exemption from many obligations, such as military service. Every easement of the struggle for existence has redounded to the liberation of woman, and she has directly benefited from every advance toward monogamy. The weaker always makes disproportionate gains in every adjustment of the mores in the progressive evolution of society.

(937.1) 84:5.10 In the ideals of pair marriage, woman has finally won recognition, dignity, independence, equality, and education; but will she prove worthy of all this new and unprecedented accomplishment? Will modern woman respond to this great achievement of social liberation with idleness, indifference, barrenness, and infidelity? Today, in the twentieth century, woman is undergoing the crucial test of her long world existence!

(938.1) 84:5.11 Woman is man’s equal partner in race reproduction, hence just as important in the unfolding of racial evolution; therefore has evolution increasingly worked toward the realization of women’s rights. But women’s rights are by no means men’s rights. Woman cannot thrive on man’s rights any more than man can prosper on woman’s rights.

(938.2) 84:5.12 Each sex has its own distinctive sphere of existence, together with its own rights within that sphere. If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man’s rights, then, sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men.

(938.3) 84:5.13 Civilization never can obliterate the behavior gulf between the sexes. From age to age the mores change, but instinct never. Innate maternal affection will never permit emancipated woman to become man’s serious rival in industry. Forever each sex will remain supreme in its own domain, domains determined by biologic differentiation and by mental dissimilarity.

(938.4) 84:5.14 Each sex will always have its own special sphere, albeit they will ever and anon overlap. Only socially will men and women compete on equal terms.

Al


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Hi Al....glad you posted. I think it is important to keep reaching out. Diverse input enhances. I don't think you are sexist at all...I think you are trying to understand more....express the balance of your life experience and offer a peek at what has been working in your life...which may help someone else out there it the big cyber world.

The really cool thing about being a tomboy...I have a "man translator" of sorts installed. I get that men are solution oriented and will immediately look for possible solutions as an expression of emotional support. When men in my life "tell" me what to do...I get fiesty at first...then the translator kicks in and I hear..."I am so sorry you are going through this"..."I wish I could fix it"..."maybe together we can find a way"...."it hurts me and makes me feel helpless in this situation that I cannot fix this problem and make you feel better and loved"....these are the things I hear when good men with genuine intentions speak.

Of course, with the difference in communication and approach kept in mind.... TUB says we can't ever get each other fully... I hear you saying good things and from a good place....didn't even need man translator much to see your intentions are good.

Gerdean's post in the Prayers section really hit home...the issue is complex and solutions are also complex....I also cannot imagine a man...or even someone who has not been caught in a creep's trap...understanding. She said what is screaming inside so many of us and helped me stand up to someone recently. O:)

Keep trying Al..and others....through this process we all might find a better way....a better understanding of concepts like shared authority, leadership, personal value...just so many things we could learn here. For me, it is paramount to see examples of good men trying and caring....it balances things out and gives me an idea...a template of sorts...of what type of person...what a good man...looks and sounds like. Might help me figure out which men are predators easier if I know more clearly what the good ones, who try to understand, act like.

For me...I am going to go with healthy expression of authority = caring and support.....feels right.

blessings


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Thanks Fishin' Mom:

This is a delicate subject for men. Obviously, men have shamefully held women back and down over the centuries, even to this day. So, any type of assertive commentary seems to ring of sexism. Even if one is really not sexist, (or at least as little sexist as being raised in the mores of the twenty first century can allow).

The paper on Marriage and family life really opened my eyes as to the higher concepts of the unions between a man and a women. I have always tried to do the right thing, but bottom line is, being a man, I really have NO IDEA about some of the things which are being discussed on this thread. And I am definitely paranoid about getting my head bitten off when I raise it...

So, anyways, thanks.


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fishin'Mom wrote:
"I am so sorry you are going through this"..."I wish I could fix it"..."maybe together we can find a way"...."it hurts me and makes me feel helpless in this situation that I cannot fix this problem and make you feel better and loved"....these are the things I hear when good men with genuine intentions speak.


Oh how well I know the male thing about fixing it! In my own experience it has been men TELLING me how to fix it, by giving me ORDERS on how to fix it from afar, interrupting me and talking over me, not knowing the situation I'm really in, in fact deliberately ignoring it, and getting very angry with me when I try to explain to them why their snap judgments and orders will not work. Then they get angry with me, and start shouting at me, like my father did last time we talked on the phone months ago. We don't talk any more.

All I really wanted was someone to be there for me, someone to talk to who had a sympathetic ear and who could be supportive of me in my situation, but no, they have to TELL me how to FIX IT, and I'm just supposed to shut up, listen, and do as they say.

Well in a fluid and developing situation in which the man is not even present, or doesn't even care to know all the details, he's not at all qualified to "fix it," but nevermind, the man always knows best, and the woman just needs to shut up and do as he tells her. No sympathy, no support, no listening.

That's the main thing men just do not seem to get. I DON'T WANT THEM TO FIX IT!!! I just needed someone to talk to, NOT someone to give me orders based on the sexist assumption that I'm too stupid and weak to deal with it myself, which I am not. Men who come at me with this attitude get REMOVED from my life.

a.


Last edited by Amy on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:29 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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