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 Post subject: Authority over woman
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"My brother, always remember that man
has no rightful authority over woman unless
the woman has willingly and voluntarily
given him such authority."
Jesus, The Urantia Book, (133:2.2)

I'm wondering what you think this means ... if you think it means that when a woman marries a man she has willingly and voluntarily given him authority over her until death do them part, or if you think this means on a moment-by-moment or issue-by-issue basis.

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Howdy.

Hi, Gerdean. Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

It would be presumptive of me to say that I know what it means, but it would be hard for me to imagine a sane woman giving carte blanche authority to any man until death. But, since we are all free agents, it is possible that a woman might do so. That is her prerogative as a child of God. We all have the option of submitting to any authority we choose, whether it be wise or unwise to do so.

Peace,
Lee


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All is well here, bro.

It might be hard for you to imagine a sane woman giving carte blanche authority to any man until death, but it happens every day. Millions of women look for just that ... somebody who will do her thinking for her 24/7. Women have been doing that for centuries.

Thank God for women's "tardy" liberation. We can stop selling our souls for a roof over our head.

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Good morning...As I read this...I think it is a moment to moment, situation to situation, situation:~)...what person in their right mind would give control or authority of their lives over to another person-till death do us part...just not doable...

Yes, my love...I give over my authority of the back 40, and slaying the saber tooth tiger...think I'll stay inside and make lunch... :wink:

Vowing to do that at the wedding chapel has gotten alot of folks into trouble from jump street... :?

Good one Gerdean... 8)

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Hi All,

This makes me think of my devoted Catholic sister, who has indeed given authority over her life to her husband, as the Catholic church always taught us to do as children. In her case, it has worked out, as her husband is a really good guy, and he has treated her very well over the nearly 50 years that they have been married. And she has treated him very well, too - has given him 5 children, and a life of selfless devotion.

But while it works for them, I find it all a bit sad in a way. My sister does not decide much of anything for herself, outside of household issues. She was forbidden to pierce her ears, she gets flak is her haircut is too short, she has no say in decorating the house (he is an antiques collector and places everything)...even in her personal medical issues, his word is final. They consider themselves to be, literally, one body. In large and small ways, he is the BOSS. And yet it works for them, because they both agree that's how it should be - and that's because that's how the Church says it will be...

He is a rather benign person, but I dread to think of how her life could have been had he not been so benign...

My marriage ended pretty much because I was NOT willing to cede all of my independence to my husband. Was that a good thing? Even though I feel sad for my sis sometimes, I do see the advantages of her submission to the situation...but it has to be totally the woman's decision to be like that. I was not up to it...


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Quote:
I was not up to it...


I wasn't either...two times. Now I have a small dog, and I'm the boss~~~sometimes :-s

Jo

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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Hope you don't mind a mans point of view here, if so please don't kill me. O:)

I want to believe that that statement has many sides to it.
One an acceptance of the times they were living in, and than, the idea that as a family unit such as in groups, we find it necessary to pick a leader, and thus the others are followers. not in the sense of blind obedience but in the trust of ones strength to guide and lead...the ability to make healthy choices, that is what we look for in a President, General, and a Boss. this can apply to our relationship in Marriage as well. But at all time there must be open dialogue so one does not feel ruled over but lead in Good Orderly Direction. sound familiar?


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Exactly, Jim...you are describing the Divine family, with God as the head of the family. And we trust God - we willingly give him our love, our decisions, our thoughts and actions, and we desire to conform our own wills to his. The Catholic church, I think, had this in mind - that the human family must in a sense, reflect the Divine family.

I think those who understand this - probably like my sister and Bro-in-law - can do a good job of it, but both people need to be pretty well grounded in their faith, and in the shared vision of doing that kind of partnership. They have to be mentally stable, and seriously trust each other. They should both be born of the spirit as well, in my opinion.

Problem is, that it really does not seem fair from at least some womens' standpoint...but then I think - maybe if Mother Spirit felt that way, nothing much would have ever gotten done in the universe...in the end, it has to be a partnership, just as our relationship with God is a partnership, as well as Father/child. And a partnership is co-operative, as in this web definition:

"a relationship resembling a legal partnership and usually involving close cooperation between parties having specified and joint rights and responsibilities"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/partnership

Looking back, I can't help but wish that I had found The Urantia Book at a much earlier age...


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I truly believe the more that men leave behind the old patriarchal ideas, and become open minded the abundance of insight that comes from having others points of view, working hand in hand towards progress and united goal seeking, for the betterment of future generation we will see old ways fall to the way-side and new progressive patterns of living emerge.


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Well...I have been doing some research as to where this thinking came from...It was Paul of Tarsus, in his teachings of which founded many of the doctrines of the church today...

1 Corinthians 11: 3-12 speaks of the topic posted here...then on to the UB search to learn more about Paul...much is said but include this quote...

89.3.6 It was only natural that the cult of renunciation and humiliation should have paid attention to sexual gratification. The continence cult originated as a ritual among soldiers prior to engaging in battle; in later days it became the practice of “saints.” This cult tolerated marriage only as an evil lesser than fornication. Many of the world’s great religions have been adversely influenced by this ancient cult, but none more markedly than Christianity. The Apostle paul was a devotee of this cult, and his personal views are reflected in the teachings which he fastened onto Christian theology: “It is good for a man not to touch a woman.” “I would that all men were even as I myself.” “I say, therefore, to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them to abide even as I.” paul well knew that such teachings were not a part of Jesus’ gospel, and his acknowledgment of this is illustrated by his statement, “I speak this by permission and not by commandment.” But this cult led paul to look down upon women. And the pity of it all is that his personal opinions have long influenced the teachings of a great world religion. If the advice of the tentmaker-teacher were to be literally and universally obeyed, then would the human race come to a sudden and inglorious end. Furthermore, the involvement of a religion with the ancient continence cult leads directly to a war against marriage and the home, society’s veritable foundation and the basic institution of human progress. And it is not to be wondered at that all such beliefs fostered the formation of celibate priesthoods in the many religions of various peoples.

..............And the pity of it all..................

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Yes, Paul, the Great Compromiser, has done a job on women, for sure. And men, too, because without the contributions of womankind, mankind is diminished. They get stuck in that barbaric war-mongering / barefoot and pregnant role that is sorely outgrown.

I was reminded, reading Mary Jo's post, of a message in the UB which I cannot find, [I used to know this Book. But now I can't seem to find anything in it. All these Study Guides have made me soft.] that sets out the ideal of men and women, based on the ideal established by Michael and the Divine Minister. Poorly paraphrased, he goes out and slays the dragon, then comes back to the castle where she has been faithfully stirring the pot and holding down the fort, whereupon she brings him his slippers and he says he couldn't have done it without her; thus they rule the kingdom jointly and equally, consulting with each other before they do anything new or different or out of the ordinary.

Like many, I have found the sociological effects of role reversals interesting, since the advent of women's liberation, which now allows women to go out and slay the dragon and the man to stir the soup and fetch the slippers. Does that mean the working woman has authority over the house-husband? I think this issue of authority has a lot to do with money. Money talks. It has authority. And whoever brings home the bacon maintains a great deal of authority.

We are on the cusp of a new dispensation. Old ways are passing; new ways are coming in. And I'm thinking "How can we keep them down on the farm after they've seen Par-ee?" Once a woman knows what it feels like to be financially self-sufficient, I think it would be very hard for her to go back to being dependent. We are compelled to begin to work with the idea that Jesus introduced, that women are spiritually equal to men -- not someone that takes a back seat -- in the bus, in the synagog, in social status, or in intellectual acumen.

It's like that silly movie "What do Women Want" with Helen Hunt and Mel Gibson. They want to be considered. And like that other silly movie "Pretty Woman" where Richard Gere rescues Julia Roberts and she rescues him right back. The problem is that too many people, instead of building relationships, take hostages. They might treat their mate like a princess, or a prince, but if one is ruling over the other, they have taken a hostage. And while that might make a pretty picture, it does not lead to a "Happily Ever After." Not really. Not for reallies.

Maybe if and when women begin to have authority over THEMSELVES instead of others, we will begin to develop a civilization that is mutually advantageous, mutually satisfying, mutually challenging, and mutually authoritative over our own thoughts, our own opinions, our own creativity. Maybe we will know PEACE!

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Hi All:
Ya know, I've been happily married for 19 years now. Beautifull wife, wonderful kids. We are still madly in love with each other. It does happen.

Just thought someone should mention that, this has kinda been a one sided thread...

I have no authority over my wife, nor she over me. However we both have equal authority over each other... (?). Love is a give and take relationship. Both partners have to be in it for the long haul. I would do anything for my wife, and I think she would do the same for me (although I have never felt the need to ask her).

This life is for living. I'm all for the spiritual jouney too, but this is our one and only chance we have to be human, and I am loving every minute of it. And part of being human is living a life of love for another human being: building a family. Even the authors say this.

My wife couldn't give two cents for the Urantia Book. Frankly, neither could my kids. It does not bother me. I give to them, total dedication and love. Fatherly authority when required (to the kids), but mostly just love. It works like crazy! Living a life of intelligent service to my family, just like Jesus said to do, is really paying off. And they are getting the message. Proably better than if I followed them around harping about what the "book" says. Trust me, that don't work. Been there, done that.

Anyways, my two cents.


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It's not an argument, Al. It's a discussion. They don't have to have "sides."

I, too, am happily married. I didn't post that question as a platform for complaining about my marriage, or for touting women's lib, or for debunking Paul of Tarsus, or to suggest that anyone's paradigm was superior to another's. It was a Quote of the Day and I just wondered what other people thought it meant. And we are all getting to comment. Freedom of speech. I don't see this as one-sided. I see it as many-sided.

What you might be reading into my comments relates to my perspective, my service work, which is to uplift woman and reinforce those who are trying to develop some kind of self-confidence in their ability to handle life on life's terms ... with or without a spouse ... with or without children. And the same value lesson can be learned by men who find themselves without a wife or a helpmate, learning to empower themselves to be happy in themselves without feeling they need to be part of a partnership.

But I am not unhappy; I am not looking for a fight nor am I looking for constituents. I was just looking to carry on some meaningful conversation with fellow religionists on a Saturday afternoon.

Peace.

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Okee Dokee Gerdean. Glad to hear that.

However my (main) point was that each of us DOES have a sort of "authority" over each other. We are a team, and it takes a partnership to make a team. And part of a partnership is excercising authority, at least as far as your part of the team is concerned.

Our relationship is like a vessel sailing thru the uncharted seas of life. When the weather is calm, we frolic on deck, take long naps, and work on our tans.

But when things turn stormy, we work together.... each excercising whatever authority is required to pull the vessel thru the tumultous seas.

Al


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That is fantastic Al and I am so happy to hear of your love for family and how it works for you...

Of course I don't know what goes on behind closed doors but I know of several happy family units...

I was in a long time relationship where "my man" knew best :roll: never could do anything quite good enough to please him...I just wanted to see him smile and lighten up...he learned this behavior from his father and he even admitted he was turning into his father...he was from a culture that encouraged and expected this behavior...

The UB says much about the family life and how very important it is...Jesus gave us the example to follow but sad to say that the Bible authors had a hard time with this and unfortunately modern day Christians still insist on following the teachings...

I had dinner with a girlfriend last night and we were talking about the love, honor and obey thing and she was very opposed to the obey part. Interesting cause she is very involved in her church and the Bible yet did not agree with this part...

Things are changing hopefully for the better...

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