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Vann wrote:

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The observable fact of divorce is proof in itself that God is not joining folks up in marriage.


I'd like to add:

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The observable fact that whenever there is a murder the number one suspect is the spouse is additional proof that God is not joining people up in marriage.



I think Sarah made a good point about if the couple works together they would have more community and therefore a better chance of staying together.

In defense of the pro-marriage people, the UB says "marriage is honorable and is to be desired by all men." But that is pulled out of context. In context you can see that he is talking about a marriage with the intent to raise children:

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167:5.7 .... At the conclusion of this conference Jesus said: "marriage is honorable and is to be desired by all men. The fact that the Son of Man pursues his earth mission alone is in no way a reflection on the desirability of marriage. That I should so work is the Father's will, but this same Father has directed the creation of male and female, and it is the divine will that men and women should find their highest service and consequent joy in the establishment of homes for the reception and training of children, in the creation of whom these parents become copartners with the Makers of heaven and earth. And for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall become as one."



Love to all,

Stacey

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Stacey,

I tend to agree with you the UB seems to indicate that the primary purpose of marriage seems to be the raising of children and family.

But is there a hidden "grace" in marriage that can help a couple to weather some of the differences of temperment that can make for incompatibility? Can a couple on their own see that maybe these differences are tools that given time can shape and reshape each other into the image of God?

Sometimes I think that it is possible without marriage maybe even favorable because one is not bound by any legal contract or spiritual ties to a doctrine of faith. Freedom. On the other hand maybe like a pro. athelete in order to achieve the best that he can be he may need that legal binding contract to help him hang in there through the tough times . Without it there he may have just given up. Just quit.

If a couple can form a loving dependence on each other to help in their spirtual growth and if they can find compensation for their partners faults and weakness through the virtue that they also posess then they are far ahead of most couples with or without marriage.

They need to see the beauty of God in each others souls. To build upon that beauty and to enhance it.
To help each other mutually grow into the image of Jesus.

Love to all.
Jeff

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Hey Stacey, Jeff and the group,

It has been interesting and somewhat disconcerting reading some of the response to this one so far. I have to note the more negative type comments offered about marriage and even the prospect of going through eternity with a mate if they chose, have come from the single folks including those who chance to also be divorced.

I have been in all the catagories myself and am now in the married column, and I find it a bit sad the pessimism towards having or finding a great relationship with a desirable mate. Well those of you who feel this way are hardly alone. The damage the family is and has been taking this past century is alarming.

Such a life on such a world !

The UB has three whole papers on marriage and family life, and does indeed extol, in many several places, the desirability and happiness possibilities contained in such successful relationships.

Don't any of you even know any happy couples? Ya gotta know somebody out there somewhere. "Cmon folks, things ain't that bad !! 8)


Anyway I looked for the passage last night for an hour and couldn't find, but will keep looking. There is a passage stating that married couples who both progress to the universe regime, and if they chose to take a universe career path of togetherness, are free to do so. Also mentioned was being probable periods of differing assignments along the way when the couple would be separated, but only temporarily.

And this makes fine sense to me. God honors our marriage institution here and He surely has no purpose in splitting chums up, arbitrarily or otherwise. We pick up on the next world right where we leave off on this one (pg 533) so why wouldn't the marriage-pair choice be continued?

Likewise, I remember nothing specifically mentioning that married couples who advance must stay together. That would make no sense. It surely is a mutual-positive choice. A dissenting partner should be able to walk away from this past association....just like they can here....

As I said earlier, love-pairing is a positive decision on the part of the two people who love each other so much, and so long-term devotedly, that they desire to spend their whole lives together. This is marriage. It is an association that is for us, serves us, and none can take it away. Romeo and Juliet lives.

I'll keep looking for that passage or maybe someone else will comes across it. Thanks!

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Vann,

Is this the passage you were looking for?

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I am a Mighty Messenger, and it may interest Urantians to know that the companion and associate of my mortal experience was also triumphant in the great test, and that, though we were many times and for long periods separated in the agelong inward ascent to Havona, we were embraced in the same seven-hundred-thousand group, and that we spent our time passing through Vicegerington in close and loving association. We were finally commissioned and together assigned to Uversa of Orvonton, and we are often dispatched in company for the execution of assignments requiring the services of two Messengers. p.245; 22.2


None of us here are against marriage, some of us just think the purpose for it is to raise children.

Why do you think the angels don't get married or morontia people don't get married?

Jeff,

Sure there are a few advantages to marriage if your goal is to stay with an individual for as long as possible. The work that God has given me to do is to earn my own living and to become perfect. That keeps me busy enough to not have much interest in the useless adventure of marriage without children. That seems to me like God the Father and God the Son trying to be happy together without having any offspring. I'm sorry if this sounds cold to you and Vann, but having children is important to a lot of women--maybe you just can't understand since you're not women.

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High spirit personalities are not given to the gratification of purposeless curiosity, purely useless adventure. There is at all times altogether too much intriguing and purposeful adventure to permit the development of any great interest in those projects which are either futile or unreal. 13:3.3


Love to all,

Stacey

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p.s.--

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127:6.8 It was during this year that Mary had a long talk with Jesus about marriage. She frankly asked him if he would get married if he were free from his family responsibilities. Jesus explained to her that, since immediate duty forbade his marriage, he had given the subject little thought. He expressed himself as doubting that he would ever enter the marriage state; he said that all such things must await "my hour," the time when "my Father's work must begin." Having settled already in his mind that he was not to become the father of children in the flesh, he gave very little thought to the subject of human marriage.

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Heya Stacey,

That passage just might be the one I'm remembering. Great catch!

I think that both common sense, and the Papers on Marriage and Family Life make it plain that children are best raised in a loving home, a loving atmosphere and with a mother and father together.

Modern mothers can purchase genetic material and bear test tube babies, but we should be able to realize that just because this is possible doesn't mean it is the best circumstance.

I submit myself for being declared guilty of being a hopeless romantic. I love women and real pair joining for the pursuit of long term goals.

It's there for those who want it and can find it.

It is merely an obvious fact of continuing existence that new generations of people must be produced. The UB simply recites a best and intended scenario for having this happen.

Many thanks Stacey !

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Last edited by Vann on Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:34 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Another point worth making is that pair marriage between a male and a female is designed to be difficult. At age 50, as a bisexual person, I considered the merits of having a life companion of the same gender, wherein we could be much more "gay" than married people seem to be ... in that state of constant antagonism. But the real challenge to my soul growth seemed to be in the more difficult path, which was pair marriage. In some ways, it seemed I would be cheating my own potential by taking the easier, softer way (as hard as that is to imagine) and so I opted for the heterosexual mate. [Anyway, no gay mate ever showed up to claim my heart].

And the fact is, marriage has been extremely difficult. It is a good marriage in every respect, but it has still been very difficult, simply for the very reason that it requires me to be less selfish than I would like to be. Like it or not, I am a very selfish person and having to consider my mate all the time is not something I like to do, but it is something I do do, and so I suppose I am a better person for it.

It is said that marriage is harder on women than it is on men and I believe it. We are naturally more self-effacing and nurturing with children, but that aught not carry over into maturity and dotage, yet it does and it is wearisome. Plus, generally speaking, men are bigger than women are. I can understand why women do not want to marry, but there comes a time when having a protector is a good thing.

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Greets Gerdean,

Dang I hear you Gerdean, and the others who offered similar sentiments.

I will disagree with necessarily stating that marriage, specifically, is designed to be difficult; but just is difficult because you are actually more than doubling the ever-present "joy" of living life as it is anyway. This reminds me of what I call "the list of why life is hard" so eloquently delivered on page 51.

So we gots the inherent life's hardship being baggaged around as it is. Now x 2 with the two subjects of our couple. Then the added difficulties of the two attempting to work together at a serious undertaking.

Sounds like a full day's work everyday to me. Hmmm.... good and interesting challenges to stimulate the mind and body. Sure marriage can be hard and there is a steep learning curve when first getting in, but I find it to be an intended part of life like many others....living happily alone, careers, raising children as a single parent or guardian ect....

So my view is that a person's success and general happiness in life depends upon the person's attitudes, beliefs, chosen disposition, thought processes....how you chose to think about things. UB reader-believers should enjoy a great intellectual-to-spiritual growth and action advantage over....most everyone else. For those who have or are trying to develop the personal relationship with God, then, "God knowing people are naturally happy people."

Now matter what your cultural or social status, single living alone, living together without long term love desire/commitment, marriage, gay, strait, dirt poor, middle class, rich n' famous.....no matter who you are or what you do......life is hard. It is life itself that is designed to be hard, for the "list" posted above and to just make us lazy bipeds use the fine brains Father gave us and make life work and work well....or die. The UB clearly gives you every reason and tool to live an incredibly enriched and even gloriously happy life. "Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it." pg 556

Anyone can do this wherever they are and whatever station in life they find themselves in. Help your Thought Adjuster adjust your thoughts. Learn to change the way you think ever towards a better way, a more loving way. Make progress everyday even if it's just a little, and that's all you can do today.

Although a likely large majority of marriages during....maybe any time period up to and including now.....are not wholly successful, including seeing the pair both proceed onto the universe career, and chose to be and serve together throughout eternity, doesn't mean that this situation is normal, much less desirable.

We can all agree on the default of love on this world. Did I just coin a new phrase? "Default of love?" I doubt you heard it here first folks but ya never know. The great delay of love to rule in the hearts and minds of men on this world has been and is grievous burden to thinking mankind.

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Howdy All. Vann what an excellent post. Very well worded and thoughtful and compassionate as well as wise. I don’t think I’ve heard the “default of Love”. I like it. Certainly or at least I imagine on planets not affected by Rebellion that must be the case. And even with us here on Urantia, that is what we are being guided to return too, Our default of Love. Sweet Vann.

Jeff wrote:
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If a middleaged man and woman were not planning to raise a family but wanted to be together for the rest of their lives, according to the UB would there be any need for them to get married?

Love to all,
Jeff

Here’s a few excerpts Jeff. You might find where in the scenario you present Marriage may not necessarily be needed as for procreation of for fostering a home with children., There may be other values a Marriage relationship that could make it desirable to two middle-aged people to enter into that type of relationship.

P.311 - §5 3. The Union of Souls. Completing the triune staff of attachment to the Perfectors of Wisdom, are these reflectors of the ideals and status of ethical relationships. Of all the problems in the universe requiring an exercise of the consummate wisdom of experience and adaptability, none are more important than those arising out of the relationships and associations of intelligent beings. Whether in human associations of commerce and trade, friendship and marriage, or in the liaisons of the angelic hosts, there continue to arise petty frictions, minor misunderstandings too trivial even to engage the attention of conciliators but sufficiently irritating and disturbing to mar the smooth working of the universe if they were allowed to multiply and continue.

P.369 - §1 After this pledge of subordination by the Creative Mother Spirit, Michael of Nebadon nobly acknowledged his eternal dependence on his Spirit companion, constituting the Spirit coruler of his universe domains and requiring all their creatures to pledge themselves in loyalty to the Spirit as they had to the Son; and there issued and went forth the final "Proclamation of Equality." Though he was the sovereign of this local universe, the Son published to the worlds the fact of the Spirit's equality with him in all endowments of personality and attributes of divine character. And this becomes the transcendent pattern for the family organization and government of even the lowly creatures of the worlds of space. This is, in deed and in truth, the high ideal of the family and the human institution of voluntary marriage.

P.419 - §2 Though seraphim are very affectionate and sympathetic beings, they are not sex-emotion creatures. They are much as you will be on the mansion worlds, where you will "neither marry nor be given in marriage but will be as the angels of heaven." For all who "shall be accounted worthy to attain the mansion worlds neither marry nor are given in marriage; neither do they die any more, for they are equal to the angels." Nevertheless, in dealing with sex creatures it is our custom to speak of those beings of more direct descent from the Father and the Son as the sons of God, while referring to the children of the Spirit as the daughters of God. Angels are, therefore, commonly designated by feminine pronouns on the sex planets.

P.835 - §2 The average age of betrothal was eighteen, and these youths then entered upon a two years' course of instruction in preparation for the assumption of marital responsibilities. At twenty they were eligible for marriage; and after marriage they began their lifework or entered upon special preparation therefor.

P.812 - §1 Marriage and divorce laws are uniform throughout the nation. Marriage before twenty--the age of civil enfranchisement--is not permitted. Permission to marry is only granted after one year's notice of intention, and after both bride and groom present certificates showing that they have been duly instructed in the parental schools regarding the responsibilities of married life.

P.812 - §2 Divorce regulations are somewhat lax, but decrees of separation, issued by the parental courts, may not be had until one year after application therefor has been recorded, and the year on this planet is considerably longer than on Urantia. Notwithstanding their easy divorce laws, the present rate of divorces is only one tenth that of the civilized races of Urantia.

P.913 - §1 Marriage--mating--grows out of bisexuality. Marriage is man's reactional adjustment to such bisexuality, while the family life is the sum total resulting from all such evolutionary and adaptative adjustments. Marriage is enduring; it is not inherent in biologic evolution, but it is the basis of all social evolution and is therefore certain of continued existence in some form. Marriage has given mankind the home, and the home is the crowning glory of the whole long and arduous evolutionary struggle.

P.913 - §4 Notwithstanding the personality gulf between men and women, the sex urge is sufficient to insure their coming together for the reproduction of the species. This instinct operated effectively long before humans experienced much of what was later called love, devotion, and marital loyalty. Mating is an innate propensity, and marriage is its evolutionary social repercussion.

P.915 - §4 Marriage is the institutional response of the social organism to the ever-present biologic tension of man's unremitting urge to reproduction--self-propagation. Mating is universally natural, and as society evolved from the simple to the complex, there was a corresponding evolution of the mating mores, the genesis of the marital institution. Wherever social evolution has progressed to the stage at which mores are generated, marriage will be found as an evolving institution.

P.922 - §7 The family, which grows out of marriage, is itself a stabilizer of the marriage institution together with the property mores. Other potent factors in marriage stability are pride, vanity, chivalry, duty, and religious convictions. But while marriages may be approved or disapproved on high, they are hardly made in heaven. The human family is a distinctly human institution, an evolutionary development. Marriage is an institution of society, not a department of the church. True, religion should mightily influence it but should not undertake exclusively to control and regulate it.

P.922 - §8 Primitive marriage was primarily industrial; and even in modern times it is often a social or business affair. Through the influence of the mixture of the Andite stock and as a result of the mores of advancing civilization, marriage is slowly becoming mutual, romantic, parental, poetical, affectionate, ethical, and even idealistic.

P.1776 - §0 character. Character is something more than mere mind and morals. Of all social relations calculated to develop character, the most effective and ideal is the affectionate and understanding friendship of man and woman in the mutual embrace of intelligent wedlock. Marriage, with its manifold relations, is best designed to draw forth those precious impulses and those higher motives which are indispensable to the development of a strong character. I do not hesitate thus to glorify family life, for your Master has wisely chosen the father-child relationship as the very cornerstone of this new gospel of the kingdom. And such a matchless community of relationship, man and woman in the fond embrace of the highest ideals of time, is so valuable and satisfying an experience that it is worth any price, any sacrifice, requisite for its possession.

P.1777 - §1 I repeat, such inspiring and ennobling association finds its ideal possibilities in the human marriage relation. True, much is attained out of marriage, and many, many marriages utterly fail to produce these moral and spiritual fruits. Too many times marriage is entered by those who seek other values which are lower than these superior accompaniments of human maturity. Ideal marriage must be founded on something more stable than the fluctuations of sentiment and the fickleness of mere sex attraction; it must be based on genuine and mutual personal devotion. And thus, if you can build up such trustworthy and effective small units of human association, when these are assembled in the aggregate, the world will behold a great and glorified social structure, the civilization of mortal maturity. Such a race might begin to realize something of your Master's ideal of "peace on earth and good will among men." While such a society would not be perfect or entirely free from evil, it would at least approach the stabilization of maturity.

Anyway Jeff I hope you enjoy some of those excerpts. I believe relationships were designed to be Divine. And in relationships we act in the image of God. Like the Creator Son and Mother Spirit in prefect unison and complementary action co-creating a universe. A man and a women represent the potential of acting in the for of the Complimentary Natures of Our Mother Spirit and Creator Son as well as The joint creativity of the Divine Trinity.

Peace be with you Jeff, and ALL here. :-)

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The marriage ceremony is beautiful, with great music and food…I say get married. O:)

It is also important for the rest of the family, marriage is one of the few occasions where the whole family get together, it is especially meaningful for the older members.

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He brothers and sisters

As I read this thread I don't think anybody mentioned the benifits of SSI.

Brother Jess


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The Urantia Book gave me an Idea, of what a Marriage could be like ...I want that.

Of course finding some one you want to truly have that adventure with is easier said than done.. :)

I also think about the part in the book where it mentions that there are some unfortunates that never find some one to have that grand adventure with and the chance of raising children through all the trials that bring about the experiences to gain insights in to the heavenly Father realm of understanding...i want that so much.

But I am not going to jump in to a relationship just for the sake of hoping to have that experience...I will be patient and continue to ask God to work on my so that I may one day be ready to meet the woman that is ready for me.

Now that is blind faith on my part....If it never happens ..well God must have needed me for all the things I have been doing while waiting.


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You bring up an important point, one has to have someone to marry, and not just anyone=)

Threading cautiously
I am personally cautious about this whole dating thing. It is all about finding that special someone, though there is this whole finding part. It is easy to date someone and have a girlfriend if you are only looking for sex and physical closeness, though it becomes more complicated when personality and the brain is involved. Being single has been a blessing to me. I am thinking that I may one day find someone who would not jeopardize my intellectual development, though I know my heavenly father is very satisfied by how things are now going - I am too.


Every choice has a consequence, but whitch?
I was 15(now 19,male), I had a girlfriend then, though I would be 10 % of what I now am if I had continued that relationship, Had I stayed with her then these would be the consequences:
I would not now be a top grade student, a highly philosophical personality, highly spiritual person.
I would be a young-Earth-Christian, I would share her unhealthy lifestyle, her love for ignorance e.t.c.
I have seen many a friend go from brilliant to pleasure hunters, after they met a girl, and their relationships are sooo superficial and it does not last long.


Personality matching is the way of the future
I have been thinking about this whole love thing allot, and it seems to me that allot of people do not talk enough about psychology and personality before they “get serious.” Not having this one-on-one deep and serious conversations can leave allot of problems unknown and unsolved. I personally grew up with divorced parents, along with many others, maybe not here though. Anyway, I think it is very fortunate that there have arisen dating sites in which you create a personality profile, the computer matches you up with people with similar interests, attitudes and personality. It makes it possible for Urantians to meet too.

http://www.match.com/matchus/ Is the largest of these kinds of dating-sites.

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Last edited by Rednax21Ela on Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:08 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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It's kind of neat knowing that if we miss the opportunity and JOY of raising children here, we will we presented with that opportunity again. I hope that all here who wish to have a loving relationship of PAIR association will get the opportunity here to do so. And we can rest assured that any problems we have because of the backwardness of our planet WILL BE CORRECTED at a later date in our development. One of the most important things I've gotten from TUB is the Peace and Confidence in knowing what I don't get right here, I WILL get Right later on. It just feels good knowing that. God's Peace be with us all. O:)

P.516 - §4 All mortal survivors who have not experienced parenthood on the evolutionary worlds must also obtain this necessary training while sojourning in the homes of the Jerusem Material Sons and as parental associates of these superb fathers and mothers. This is true except in so far as such mortals have been able to compensate their deficiencies on the system nursery located on the first transitional-culture world of Jerusem.

P.516 - §5 This probation nursery of Satania is maintained by certain morontia personalities on the finaliters' world, one half of the planet being devoted to this work of child rearing. Here are received and reassembled certain children of surviving mortals, such as those offspring who perished on the evolutionary worlds before acquiring spiritual status as individuals. The ascension of either of its natural parents insures that such a mortal child of the realms will be accorded repersonalization on the system finaliter planet and there be permitted to demonstrate by subsequent freewill choice whether or not it elects to follow the parental path of mortal ascension. Children here appear as on the nativity world except for the absence of sex differentiation. There is no reproduction of mortal kind after the life experience on the inhabited worlds.

P.517 - §1 Mansion world students who have one or more children in the probationary nursery on the finaliters' world, and who are deficient in essential parental experience, may apply for a Melchizedek permit which will effect their temporary transfer from ascension duties on the mansion worlds to the finaliter world, where they are granted opportunity to function as associate parents to their own and other children. This service of parental ministry may be later accredited on Jerusem as the fulfillment of one half of the training which such ascenders are required to undergo in the families of the Material Sons and Daughters.

P.517 - §2 The probation nursery itself is supervised by one thousand couples of Material Sons and Daughters, volunteers from the Jerusem colony of their order. They are immediately assisted by about an equal number of volunteer midsonite parental groups who stop off here to render this service on their way from the midsonite world of Satania to the unrevealed destiny on their special worlds of reservation among the finaliter spheres of Salvington.

P.531 - §2 On the first mansion world all survivors must pass the requirements of the parental commission from their native planets. The present Urantia commission consists of twelve parental couples, recently arrived, who have had mortal experience in rearing three or more children to the pubescent age. Service on this commission is rotational and is for only ten years as a rule. All who fail to satisfy these commissioners as to their parental experience must further qualify by service in the homes of the Material Sons on Jerusem or in part in the probationary nursery on the finaliters' world.

P.531 - §3 But irrespective of parental experience, mansion world parents who have growing children in the probation nursery are given every opportunity to collaborate with the morontia custodians of such children regarding their instruction and training. These parents are permitted to journey there for visits as often as four times a year. And it is one of the most touchingly beautiful scenes of all the ascending career to observe the mansion world parents embrace their material offspring on the occasions of their periodic pilgrimages to the finaliter world. While one or both parents may leave a mansion world ahead of the child, they are quite often contemporary for a season.

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I do not think, "In God's eyes" there is any need for a legal ralationship, aka marriage. It is more a human thing. Marriage has certain perks, taxes, health insurance, legal issues if there is a death. But to me, marriage is my promise to this person that you are the one person in my life that I want to be conneced to by name, and I will be with you forever. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. I think you should get married only if you are one of the few people on this plant that has "Good Judgement". I have good judgement, I have been married for 35 years and this is my best friend and I knew that when I married him. I really am perplexed by so many divorices, how can you love someone one minute and not the next? ANWSER: You didn't REALLY LOVE them. This is a family member that you decide you'r done with, how do you do that? I believe if you marry someone that you LIKE, maybe more than you love, and you think of them as a part of you family, then you can never throw them away. In my view, every divorce is a decree that you do were STUPID somewhere along the way. From what I see, peole are so stupid in relationships, bad judgement. Stone me.
Debbie


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