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In all the illustrations including this one, the ascent to paradise video on Square Circles, and the drawings Bill has shared, the seven superuniverses are depicted as individual galaxies in the same plane as they revolve around Havona and Paradise. Notice each superuniverse is depicted as being aproximately equal in size.

Joer, do you remember your description of circumference we discussed on another thread?

TUB tells us that the inhabited portion of Orvonton is about 500,000 light years across. If we follow the illustrations and assume that Orvonton's 500,000 light years is one-seventh the circumference of the entire grand universe, we arrive at an answer of about 3,500,000 light years for the total circumference of the grand universe depending on the eccentricity of the elipse. ( TUB does not give the eccentricity as far as I know.) Even so, dividing 3,500,000 by Pi gives an answer of a little over 1,000,000 light years.

If we were only 1,000,000 light years from the Isle of Paradise, we should be able to easily see with our telescopes something quite similar to the illustrations drawn in accordance with the purported cosmology of TUB.

Problem is that we don't see anything remotely similar to these diagrams with all the pictures collected from Hubble or any other telescope. Hence, observed reality does not match the cosmology of the Urantia Papers. No matter where we look with our modern telescopes we simply do not see seven galaxies all lined up like pretty maids all in a row on the same plane.

The Andromeda Galaxy, which happens to be mentioned by name in the Uantia Papers, is the closest neighboring galaxy and is about 2,500,000 light years distant according to modern science. Yet, the Urantia Papers do not seem to include it with Orvonton or any other superuniverse for that matter. And there most certainly are not anything similar to the major sectors as depicted in this illustration when we observe the Milky Way, Andromeda, or any other galaxy.

If the Dark Gravity Bodies hide Havona and Paradise AND if all the superuniverse galaxies are in the same plane, then these same Dark Gravity Bodies would also hide the galaxies on the other side from us creating a huge dark void where no stars appear to be and no visible light shines. Telescopes do show some voids in between long strings of galaxies called superclusters, but superclusters are not in the same plane. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be any evidence to indicate Dark Gravity Bodies hiding anything.

This specific diagram which Tasneem has shared doesn't even depict an eliptical orbit. It shows a circular one. It also shows an arrow pointing "North". Such a direction must be relative to something else or it has no meaning. Another discrepancy.

As I have attempted to show on other threads using quotes from TUB describing this illustrated cosmology as compared with observed reality, the quotes are oftimes ambiguous, contradictory, mathematically inaccurate, and subject to interpretation. Other students of the Urantia Papers have attempted to correlate the Urantia Book information with observed reality. So far each attempt yields a different conclusion. One would think that a textbook of Truth which TUB is purported to be would be more consistent in its revelation and that all students of the Urantia Paper could easily arrive at the same conclusions based on the same information. This apparently is not the case. I, for one, remain a partial skeptic of the Urantia Papers.

Perhaps if the so-called "revelators" saw fit to include diagrams or illustrations of this cosmology making clear their meaning without any ambiguosity, inconsistency, or misinterpretation there would be no confusion.

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Last edited by rhermen on Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:26 am +0000, edited 4 times in total.

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Hi Randy! As always I enjoy your quantitative analisis and prespective.

How far can our telescopes see Randy? And what about the idea of the ring dense matter dark bodies blocking our view of Hovana and Paradise? Any evidense of that either way?

Thanks again Randy. God Bless You! :smile:

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Sorry Joe. That all the time I have right now gotta go to work!

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Hello, im back again... with more questions...

I want to know, where does God reside in this diagram above... I dont really understand it... If He occupies the centre, then what is on the outside of the universes, what do you think lies beyond..?

Is He a part of these universes or exist beyond and above them....? I shall go back and read somemore....


With Love

Sarah xx


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Sarah,

God resides in Paradise which is located in the very center of the diagram. It is outside of time/space. It is eternal and timeless.

God is the universe and more. Nothing exists apart from Him. Remember the problem with time origin creatures needing beginnings and ends.

To address Randy a bit: None of these drawimngs are to any scale or reflect 3D relationships.. We are told that a cross section would look roughly like a Maltese cross. My sketches reflect top views.

The question was how could there be 7 circle representations of reality. I gave an opinion.

As to why we cannot see Paradise, we are not supposed to. Perhaps a reflective principal such as the "bubble lens effect" seen in the Hubble shots places objects in our view which are really somewhere else creating the illusion of uninterupted star fields.

I trust the book.

Bill,
Faith son

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Gods Day to All 8)

Good Stuff ~ Randy , Bill .. Et all

A very Nice Explanation Bill .

'' We are told that a cross section would look roughly like a Maltese cross. My sketches reflect top views.''

Like the Om /Aum Symbol :idea: :wink:

http://www.om-page.de/indexE.html

''As to why we cannot see Paradise, we are not supposed to. Perhaps a reflective principal such as the "bubble lens effect" seen in the Hubble shots places objects in our view which are really somewhere else creating the illusion of uninterupted star fields. ''

My friend , I Like this Concept .

Ahh ... Just to Clarify somethin , for new readers , I dont have a U Paper Quote at this moment ... { Joer ? ..or Anyone ...

Well for all our purposes , it is True , That Christ Michael OUR
Creator Son ... IS GOD ...to US of OUR Universe . Correct :idea:

And the One Uncaused Cause , the First Source & Center , ...
IS GOD ... thee Universal Father . Right ? :idea:

Namastae to you All . O:)

Faith son ... Coop


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Hello all

Coop says
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Well for all our purposes , it is True , That Christ Michael OUR
Creator Son ... IS GOD ...to US of OUR Universe . Correct


Huh...??? Being a Creator Son does not make Christ Michael our God..He still works, and is under the authority of the Father... is he not..?

Besides that i still dont understand the Urantia book, when it says that God is at the centre of all the universes... thats a new one for me... I mean if He is at the centre, what is at the edge of all the creation, surely it cannot end there at the edge..actually is there an edge... Would have made much more sense to me if God was at the outer edge, so He could fill infinity... Lol do i make any sense atall... :lol: This suggests to me with my tiny intellect.. that there would be other Supreme beings out there too with other Super universes... etc .... Can anyone draw a 3D diagram of this maltese cross thingy universe coz im not getting it... :?

Okay im going to sleep.... O:)

With Love

Sarah xx


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Sarah,

Michael is our direct creator. As our creator He is a God. He is the only path to our Father who is also His Father. Since securing sovereignty over Nebadon, He is only voluntarily under His Father's rule in Nebadon.

The entire creation is in and of our Father. There is nothing outside it.

Study the text a little more. It will fall into place. We have all asked the questions you ask. You are on track.

Bill,
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Nice! This thread is livening up a little bit. Cool. Coop, Bill, Randy, Tasneem and all. Namaste. ( can't ever spell that right.:0-)

Tasneem, My idea of God is that God is everywhere. All creation is contained within God. And God is within all creation. So God is at the center and the outer edges at the same time. Omnipresence right? How do you perceive omnipresence Tasneem?

Then Do you accept that God is within you Tasneem? If God is within you and everything on earth and we are on the outer edge of emerging creation in one of the seven superuniverses, then can you visualize since God is in you that God is in Paradise at the same time? Can you visualize God being infinitely divided into an infinite number of personalities. The Creator son is in God and God is in the Creator Son. The Creator Son is a derivative of God. But The Son is a derivative in the sense of being that The Son is congruent to God. Do you remember in math Tasneem the sign for congruency? It has that that little squiggly line above the equal sign. At it means like God but not exactly the same as God. Thus the denominations of God the Father and God the Son.

For if one was not the personality denominated as Father and the other not the personality denominated as the Son and they were in fact JUST Equal then their name would just be GOD with no differentiation. Right?

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& Dont Forget Thee Eternal Son . Cool

Sarah ~ No Worries , As Bill Sez You are on Track , ... it does all seem so very complicated and can be a bit overwelming sometimes , //At First
So just relax Read & Reread the U papers ... And the Spirit of Truth Will Help Claify And make Clear ... .... And Will show you ... '' The way '' Wink

Sarah & Anyone who has of yet not Viewed This Awsome Enlightening
Visual By our Brother GrayGhost .

Do take time to Watch it , and watch & Read , Study it Again . I thought you might be interested in view it:

www.Satania606.com.


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Hello all....

Thanks coop for the thread, i shall take a look.... O:)

Joer says :

Quote:
My idea of God is that God is everywhere. All creation is contained within God. And God is within all creation. So God is at the center and the outer edges at the same time. Omnipresence right? How do you perceive omnipresence Tasneem?


Being Omnipresent to me means that God can, if He so chooses be anywhere and everywhere at any place at anytime... no im not making any sense am i... :(

Quote:
Then Do you accept that God is within you Tasneem? If God is within you and everything on earth and we are on the outer edge of emerging creation in one of the seven superuniverses, then can you visualize since God is in you that God is in Paradise at the same time?
Yes i can accept that...

Quote:
Can you visualize God being infinitely divided into an infinite number of personalities. The Creator son is in God and God is in the Creator Son. The Creator Son is a derivative of God. But The Son is a derivative in the sense of being that The Son is congruent to God.
No i cant visualize it .... :? This treads into the realms of association, polytheism... whats the difference...? Ok there is a difference now i think about it, its not the same as saying there are many different kinds of god's, rather they are all one of the same... :? And thats why in the Holy books, God addresses Himself as We and Us and sometimes Him, He... confusing...

Quote:
Do you remember in math Tasneem the sign for congruency? It has that that little squiggly line above the equal sign. At it means like God but not exactly the same as God. Thus the denominations of God the Father and God the Son. For if one was not the personality denominated as Father and the other not the personality denominated as the Son and they were in fact JUST Equal then their name would just be GOD with no differentiation. Right?
I have been reading this for years:

"He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."

Back onto Universes.... I have been trying to figure out the shape of the universe according to the Ubook... i cant figure it out.. If God is at the centre and also the outer edges too, then we must live inside Him...We are a part of Him.. ??? According to the Ubook and all other books too, the universe has seven layers, that fold around each other.... (plus the seven s.universes in the u.book) I would have thought that the universe was shaped like a sphere, but according to Scientist today, they believe that the Universe is flat, some say it evolved by spiralling outward, similar to a spiral galaxy...following the laws of geometry...(some also think it is shaped like a cone too) maybe thats why we have the c.circles.... And the universe does not expand, rather it stretches, because if it expands then it would have to expand into something.... huh..? If you take the Urantia symbol and count the outer space and all the blue lines too, that equals seven...maybe it could be a symbol for the universe too... just a silly thought... :roll:

Ok take care

Love Sarah xx


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Sarah ~

All is One & One Is All

As A Unity in Muliplicity . :wink:

Please do Watch the Video ... It will help to Clarify your Questions & Thots .

Namastae

Pax ~ Coop


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Question for Rehman and others,

If we are looking towards paradise as it is described geographically isn't our view constrained the further out we look? In other words isn't our view of distant galaxies focused like a slice of pizza, from the outer crust towards the tip or is it the other way around?

Another question, if what Hubble is observing is say 1,000,000 light years away how old it the source that we are looking at?

Another question, if we are looking at something 1,000,000 light years away are we looking back in time?


Another question, I thought the UB said that paradise is composed of spiritual matter. Would we be able to see it?


*These three seven-world circuits of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are spheres of unexcelled grandeur and unimagined glory. Even their material or physical construction is of an order unrevealed to you.

*On the seven sacred worlds of the Eternal Son there appear to take origin the impersonal energies of spirit luminosity. No personal being may sojourn on any of these seven shining realms. With spiritual glory they illuminate all Paradise and Havona, and they directionize pure spirit luminosity to the seven superuniverses. These brilliant spheres of the second circuit likewise emit their light (light without heat) to Paradise and to the billion worlds of the seven-circuited central universe.

*The eternal Isle is composed of a single form of materialization--stationary systems of reality. This literal substance of Paradise is a homogeneous organization of space potency not to be found elsewhere in all the wide universe of universes. It has received many names in different universes, and the Melchizedeks of Nebadon long since named it absolutum.

*On upper Paradise there are three grand spheres of activity, the Deity presence, the Most Holy Sphere, and the Holy Area. The vast region immediately surrounding the presence of the Deities is set aside as the Most Holy Sphere and is reserved for the functions of worship, trinitization, and high spiritual attainment. There are no material structures nor purely intellectual creations in this zone; they could not exist there. It is useless for me to undertake to portray to the human mind the divine nature and the beauteous grandeur of the Most Holy Sphere of Paradise. This realm is wholly spiritual, and you are almost wholly material. A purely spiritual reality is, to a purely material being, apparently nonexistent.

*The central Isle ends abruptly at the periphery, but its size is so enormous that this terminal angle is relatively indiscernible within any circumscribed area. The peripheral surface of Paradise is occupied, in part, by the landing and dispatching fields for various groups of spirit personalities. Since the nonpervaded-space zones nearly impinge upon the periphery, all personality transports destined to Paradise land in these regions. Neither upper nor nether Paradise is approachable by transport supernaphim or other types of space traversers.


Colter


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Perhaps a little better.

It is all God. In Him of Him.

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Nice stuff All. Thank You for such good sharing. Coop thanks for the good links. Bill excellent diagram. Colter a good reminder of the "seen" and the "unseen" and good questions of light and time. And thanks for some of the text that the diagrams are representative of. Tasneem excellent questions. the answers are within you and within your perception of what we share and what you examine to find your answers.

In case you would like to see some more interesting diagrams trying to convey concepts contained within the book. In the Bill Sadler 57 page PDF file of the Master Universe from Coop's link, there are diagrams similar in style to Truth Bill's diagrams. Page 3 is a diagram of the Master Universe. Tasneem this isn't a scientific interpretation of the "shape" of the Universe, none of the diagrams in this PDF file are, but it is a diagram meant to aid in the conceptual understanding of the "makeup" of the Universe. Page 4 shows space levels. Page 20 and 27 show Central and superuniverses. P 32 Tasneem is an interesting diagram to aid in understanding the make-up of God.

You write:
Quote:
I have been reading this for years:

"He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."


And yet ALL begetting is contained within GOD. An ever emerging, constantly creating, all things forever "being made anew" ALL contain within GOD. God without limit.

Page 41 shows a relationship between space levels.

So if you get a chance to check out the PDF file. Check out those pages.

Peace my friends.

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