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OK I think I have a better idea now. Sadler's paper from the Gray Ghost link had the text complied and diagram from the text. It was pretty comprehensive. And now I can see If you counted Paradise as a circuit. Your would have 7 concentric ellipses from the center to the extreme of the Master universe. One contained inside the other. As described by antwoman. BUT The seven super universes are all contained on one circuit NOT in seven concentric levels like Hovana is.

P.129 - §1 Proceeding outward from Paradise through the horizontal extension of pervaded space, the master universe is existent in six concentric ellipses, the space levels encircling the central Isle:

P.129 - §2 1. The Central Universe--Havona.
P.129 - §3 2. The Seven Superuniverses.
P.129 - §4 3. The First Outer Space Level.
P.129 - §5 4. The Second Outer Space Level.
P.129 - §6 5. The Third Outer Space Level.
P.129 - §7 6. The Fourth and Outermost Space Level.

P.131 - §1 The Uversa star students observe that the grand universe is surrounded by the ancestors of a series of starry and planetary clusters which completely encircle the present inhabited creation as concentric rings of outer universes upon universes. The physicists of Uversa calculate that the energy and matter of these outer and uncharted regions already equal many times the total material mass and energy charge embraced in all seven superuniverses. We are informed that the metamorphosis of cosmic force in these outer space levels is a function of the Paradise force organizers. We also know that these forces are ancestral to those physical energies which at present activate the grand universe. The Orvonton power directors, however, have nothing to do with these far-distant realms, neither are the energy movements therein discernibly connected with the power circuits of the organized and inhabited creations.

Dave I saw the pps file you gave the link for on Spuare Circles. It took a while to load on my old PC but finally it worked. Thank You.

Peace be with you. :smile:

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OK I think I have a better idea now. Sadler's paper from the Gray Ghost link had the text complied and diagram from the text. It was pretty comprehensive. And now I can see If you counted Paradise as a circuit. Your would have 7 concentric ellipses from the center to the extreme of the Master universe. One contained inside the other. As described by antwoman. BUT The seven super universes are all contained on one circuit NOT in seven concentric levels like Hovana is.


Thanks Joer, the references are excellent. :smile:

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My pleasure antwoman.

I enjoyed the rediscovery. I think I forget more than I remember and then I wonder if I ever really learned it at all. So I welcome invitations to rediscover stuff in TUB. It's always rewarding. Like Truth Bill says paraphrasing him. "Read TUB and then read it some more!"
:smile:

Thank you Truth Bill! It sounds funny at first but after it's put into practice it makes a lot of sense! :smile:

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I have a suggestion:

Perhaps TruthBook admin would consider making a new forum specifically designated for the discussion of the Cosmology of the Urantia Papers as compared with modern scientific understanding...

Image

3-Dimensional view of the 2MASS XSC galaxy distribution in the local Universe. The image shows the galaxies as seen in a Galactic projection with the Milky Way front and center.

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Last edited by rhermen on Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:32 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Randy, That's a great picture of the 3-Dimensional view of the 2MASS XSC galaxy distribution.

It's interesting The elliptical shape is similar to the projected shape of a super universe. I wonder if the image is that of Nebadon (our local universe) or Splandon (one of the ten major sectors of Orvonton) or Orvonton itself (since the shape looks so close to the projected shape based on TUB Text.)

My guess is that your picture (the 2MASS XSC galaxy distribution) may be Splandon. Based on the position of the Milky Way compared to the diagram of the blue circles representing the superuniveres. In that diagram Nebadon is on an outer edge of Splandon which is on the outer edge of Orvonton. I would say the Milky Way may be Nebadon. Didn't you suggest that possibility to me before? The possibility of the Milky Way being Nebadon?

Without any quantitative aspects, just with a qualitative analysis of basic structures would that positioning make sense to you?

Namastea! God be with you brother. :smile:

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Last edited by Joer on Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:54 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Joer,

It's a projection similar to a map. Modern science does not define 'local universe' in the same way TUB does. Each of the dots represents a single galaxy with our own Milky Way shown in the center. The shape is elliptical because of the nature of the projection which makes the sky something like an inverted bowl and does not represent the shape of the universe. The projection attempts to show the structure of our observable universe from the infrared part of the EM spectrum.

2MASS stands for 2 Micron All Sky Survey began in 1997 and completed in 2001. This projection is a composite picture containing about 1.6 million galaxies looking at the sky from all directions as viewed from earth/urantia. A similar picture can be seen here:

http://www.ipac.caltech.edu/2mass/galle ... arged.html

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Another question, if what Hubble is observing is say 1,000,000 light years away how old it the source that we are looking at?

Another question, if we are looking at something 1,000,000 light years away are we looking back in time?


At present modern science contends that the universe is less than 15 billion years old. And the farther away telescopes look at the distant objects the farther back in time we're seeing. Hence, the light from a galaxy 2.5 million light years away left that galaxy 2.5 million years ago and we are seeing it as it was then but not as it is now.

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WOW :!:
''This projection is a composite picture containing about 1.6 million galaxies ''

''
.'' And the farther away telescopes look at the distant objects the farther back in time we're seeing. Hence, the light from a galaxy 2.5 million light years away left that galaxy 2.5 million years ago
{and we are seeing it as it was then but not as it is now.''}

A simple truth that many Non Cosmologists , like me , & others ,
may not know , realize or Forget .

Thanks Randy .


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Thanks rherman for those answers. :smile:


Colter


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You're welcomed guys!

I'd also like to point out that the colors in the 2MASS composite picture are false colors which have specific meaning according to modern scientific understanding. It is a type of color coding.

The violet or blue dots represent galaxies that are "blue shifted" meaning they are purported to be moving towards us at a fairly high velocity.

The cyan or green dots represent galaxies which are purported to also be moving towards us but at a much lower velocity.

The yellow or orange dots represent galaxies which are purported to be moving away from us at low velocity.

And the red or dark red dots represent galaxies which are "red shifted" and purported to be moving away from us at high velocity.

Notice that the galaxies form clusters, superclusters, and strings over great distances. Because the projection is a two dimensional representation of our 3D/4D universe, it is difficult to discern that the 1.6 million galaxies are NOT in the same plane. Placement seems to be somewhat randomized and equaly uniform in all directions.

Perhaps the reason observed reality does not match the cosmology of the Urantia Papers is because (and I'm speculating here) The Urantia Book is told from a perspective of the Fifth Dimensional reality called "Morontia" and the name "Urantia" is the name some fifth dimensional beings give to our world. Maybe Beings who achieve system level status (i.e. become citizens of Jerusem) are fully fourth dimensional and Beings who achieve constellation level status (i.e. become citizens of Edentia) are full fifth dimensional beings. Perhaps Christ Michael is a Being of full seventh dimensional status and those who are citizens of Salvington have achieved full sixth dimensional status.

Perhaps the Isle of Paradise as well as The Trinity are realities of the highest dimension and are not discernable by current scientific methods and perhaps will never be.

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rhermen wrote:
[Perhaps the reason observed reality does not match the cosmology of the Urantia Papers is because (and I'm speculating here) The Urantia Book is told from a perspective of the Fifth Dimensional reality called "Morontia" and the name "Urantia" is the name some fifth dimensional beings give to our world. .[/size]


Page 737 of the UB - "It is impossible accurately to determine, simultaneously, the exact location and the velocity of a moving object; any attempt at measurement of either inevitably involves change in the other. The same sort of a paradox confronts mortal man when he undertakes the chemical analysis of protoplasm."

There is also mention of a correction factor that we need to apply to our pictures of "space". And it does mention that personalities are CHARTING the existence of suns, planets, etc. all throughout the universes in labs - so that's all we can really do with observed data - note what EXISTS.

As for the "theory" about what you may be seeing - well, most amateur astronomers I know have over active imaginations 8)


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Hey Randy! Nice postulating on the dimensional stuff. I was wondering Randy, If the universe demarcated by the 2MASS composite picture was in the shape of one of those kettle things they push on the ice in the Olympics and it was expanding and we were on the outer edge on one side. Then wouldn't it be possible that the red and yellow are the galaxies expanding away from us on the other side of the universe and the Green and Blue the galaxies expanding toward and with us on our half of the universe.

Would it be possible to measure distances to red yellow green and blue glaxicies to see if this would hold true? If it did the Blue would be the closest followed by the Green than yellow and finally the red being the farthest away from us.

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If it did the Blue would be the closest followed by the Green than yellow and finally the red being the farthest away from us.


This is the current understanding Joe. Here is link to an overview:

http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/ja ... apers/LSS/

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It is impossible accurately to determine, simultaneously, the exact location and the velocity of a moving object; any attempt at measurement of either inevitably involves change in the other. The same sort of a paradox confronts mortal man when he undertakes the chemical analysis of protoplasm.


fetish, it isn't necessary to determine the exact location of galaxies because, from our mortal perspective, the scale of galaxies are so vast and move so slowly that any determination of both location and velocity is adequate for cosmological understanding. We're discussing a incredibly long timescale. Pictures such as this are a freeze frame snap shot and help to bring understanding of our universe and our place in it. All motion & location is relative to the observer.

Perhaps from the sub-atomic, microcosmic perspective of a cell, the body is the universe. And perhaps from a meta-atomic, macrocosmic perspective galaxies function in the body of the Supreme Being in the same way cells function in our own body. How's that for an overactive imagination?

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rhermen wrote:
[

fetish, it isn't necessary to determine the exact location of galaxies because, from our mortal perspective, the scale of galaxies are so vast and move so slowly that any determination of both location and velocity is adequate for cosmological understanding. We're discussing a incredibly long timescale. Pictures such as this are a freeze frame snap shot and help to bring understanding of our universe and our place in it. All motion & location is relative to the observer.

Perhaps from the sub-atomic, microcosmic perspective of a cell, the body is the universe. And perhaps from a meta-atomic, macrocosmic perspective galaxies function in the body of the Supreme Being in the same way cells function in our own body. How's that for an overactive imagination?


I just luv the way you do a 180 whenever it suits you - weren't you guys trying to "measure" SIZE...?


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I just luv the way you do a 180 whenever it suits you - weren't you guys trying to "measure" SIZE...?


Nope! On this thread I was comparing the concept as presented by TUB that seven galaxies being nearly equal in size and called superuniverses traveling in an ellipical orbit around something we cannot see with the structure of the universe as seen by our modern technology.

As I stated earlier in this thread: "Problem is that we don't see anything remotely similar to these diagrams with all the pictures collected from Hubble or any other telescope. Hence, observed reality does not match the cosmology of the Urantia Papers. No matter where we look with our modern telescopes we simply do not see seven galaxies all lined up like pretty maids all in a row on the same plane."

As you can see, I haven't done a 180 at all and your sophistry is very amusing fetish! It is Mr. Shakita's thread which discusses size. Chris Watts brought this quote to that thread:

Quote:
"101:4.2 Mankind should understand that we who participate in the revelation of truth are very rigorously limited by the instructions of our superiors. We are not at liberty to anticipate the scientific discoveries of a thousand years. Revelators must act in accordance with the instructions which form a part of the revelation mandate. We see no way of overcoming this difficulty, either now or at any future time. We full well know that, while the historic facts and religious truths of this series of revelatory presentations will stand on the records of the ages to come, within a few short years many of our statements regarding the physical sciences will stand in need of revision in consequence of additional scientific developments and new discoveries. These new developments we even now foresee, but we are forbidden to include such humanly undiscovered facts in the revelatory records. Let it be made clear that revelations are not necessarily inspired. The cosmology of these revelations is not inspired. It is limited by our permission for the co-ordination and sorting of present-day knowledge. While divine or spiritual insight is a gift, human wisdom must evolve."


I am merely presenting a few examples of new scientific developments which demonstrate that said concepts probably need revision already. I am also pointing out that there are missing pieces of the puzzle and that the definitions of certain concepts of the cosmology presented in the Urantia Papers are not very clear, ambiguous, open to interpretation and sometimes mathematically inaccurate or simply not true as compared to modern scientific understanding.

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rhermen wrote:
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As I stated earlier in this thread: "Problem is that we don't see anything remotely similar to these diagrams with all the pictures collected from Hubble or any other telescope. Hence, observed reality does not match the cosmology of the Urantia Papers. No matter where we look with our modern telescopes we simply do not see seven galaxies all lined up like pretty maids all in a row on the same plane."

.


Look, if there was no capacity for visual tricks, would we have magicians in Vegas...?

I already stated in that other thread that we need to figure out what we are seeing....you might not get the need for a "correction factor", but that does not mean we do not need one.


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