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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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maryjo606 wrote:
Yes, my salvation is real, and has been for a long time. But I also know I can go back and reject it at any time prior to fusion.


So....your salvation is real....but is already true? Yes, I agree!! Salvation does not depend upon fusion. Fusion is simply another step of progress forward into destiny!! And salvation is not a mortal achievement....it is an acceptance of our relationship with God....and that acceptance is an evolutionary process over time!! This distinction is no small matter. Salvation is a function of God's love and mercy and the inherent spirit nature and connection of the mortal to Deity.


8)

54:5.3 (617.3) 2. Supreme justice is dominated by a Father’s love; therefore will justice never destroy that which mercy can save. Time to accept salvation is vouchsafed every evildoer.

Me here: The "finality of salvation" is not "true salvation". Fusion and finality are the results of true salvation....which certainly takes place long before either fusion or finality!!!

True salvation is a function of faith....not belief or knowledge or specific acts of doctrine, creed, or ceremony. True salvation begins on the mortal worlds of birth by the connection of Deity to mortal and the Divine ministry of mind and Spirit resulting in assurance of salvation. We are saved - eternally so - by faith and spiritization in this life and in the next. Children and barbarians can and do experience salvation by their faith connection to Deity.

Salvation is a "WAY" of living and being and becoming. Fusion is an important landmark and milestone along the way. Even fusion is not finality. We are evolutionary and experiential beings. The evolutionary experience of true salvation has already begun!! Embrace the adventure.


101:6.6 (1112.2) With man, the eventual fusion and resultant oneness with the indwelling Adjuster—the personality synthesis of man and the essence of God—constitute him, in potential, a living part of the Supreme and insure for such a onetime mortal being the eternal birthright of the endless pursuit of finality of universe service for and with the Supreme.

101:6.7 (1112.3) Revelation teaches mortal man that, to start such a magnificent and intriguing adventure through space by means of the progression of time, he should begin by the organization of knowledge into idea-decisions; next, mandate wisdom to labor unremittingly at its noble task of transforming self-possessed ideas into increasingly practical but nonetheless supernal ideals, even those concepts which are so reasonable as ideas and so logical as ideals that the Adjuster dares so to combine and spiritize them as to render them available for such association in the finite mind as will constitute them the actual human complement thus made ready for the action of the Truth Spirit of the Sons, the time-space manifestations of Paradise truth—universal truth. The co-ordination of idea-decisions, logical ideals, and divine truth constitutes the possession of a righteous character, the prerequisite for mortal admission to the ever-expanding and increasingly spiritual realities of the morontia worlds.

101:6.8 (1112.4) The teachings of Jesus constituted the first Urantian religion which so fully embraced a harmonious co-ordination of knowledge, wisdom, faith, truth, and love as completely and simultaneously to provide temporal tranquillity, intellectual certainty, moral enlightenment, philosophic stability, ethical sensitivity, God-consciousness, and the positive assurance of personal survival. The faith of Jesus pointed the way to finality of human salvation, to the ultimate of mortal universe attainment, since it provided for:

101:6.9 (1112.5) 1. Salvation from material fetters in the personal realization of sonship with God, who is spirit.

101:6.10 (1112.6) 2. Salvation from intellectual bondage: man shall know the truth, and the truth shall set him free.

101:6.11 (1112.7) 3. Salvation from spiritual blindness, the human realization of the fraternity of mortal beings and the morontian awareness of the brotherhood of all universe creatures; the service-discovery of spiritual reality and the ministry-revelation of the goodness of spirit values.

101:6.12 (1113.1) 4. Salvation from incompleteness of self through the attainment of the spirit levels of the universe and through the eventual realization of the harmony of Havona and the perfection of Paradise.

101:6.13 (1113.2) 5. Salvation from self, deliverance from the limitations of self-consciousness through the attainment of the cosmic levels of the Supreme Mind and by co-ordination with the attainments of all other self-conscious beings.

101:6.14 (1113.3) 6. Salvation from time, the achievement of an eternal life of unending progression in God-recognition and God-service.

101:6.15 (1113.4) 7. Salvation from the finite, the perfected oneness with Deity in and through the Supreme by which the creature attempts the transcendental discovery of the Ultimate on the postfinaliter levels of the absonite.

101:6.16 (1113.5) Such a sevenfold salvation is the equivalent of the completeness and perfection of the realization of the ultimate experience of the Universal Father. And all this, in potential, is contained within the reality of the faith of the human experience of religion. And it can be so contained since the faith of Jesus was nourished by, and was revelatory of, even realities beyond the ultimate; the faith of Jesus approached the status of a universe absolute in so far as such is possible of manifestation in the evolving cosmos of time and space.

101:6.17 (1113.6) Through the appropriation of the faith of Jesus, mortal man can foretaste in time the realities of eternity. Jesus made the discovery, in human experience, of the Final Father, and his brothers in the flesh of mortal life can follow him along this same experience of Father discovery. They can even attain, as they are, the same satisfaction in this experience with the Father as did Jesus as he was. New potentials were actualized in the universe of Nebadon consequent upon the terminal bestowal of Michael, and one of these was the new illumination of the path of eternity that leads to the Father of all, and which can be traversed even by the mortals of material flesh and blood in the initial life on the planets of space. Jesus was and is the new and living way whereby man can come into the divine inheritance which the Father has decreed shall be his for but the asking. In Jesus there is abundantly demonstrated both the beginnings and endings of the faith experience of humanity, even of divine humanity.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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fanofVan wrote:
Salvation does not depend upon fusion.


If that's the case, what does salvation depend on?


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Salvation does not depend upon fusion.


If that's the case, what does salvation depend on?


According to the text already posted...it takes faith and spiritization and the evolutionary religious experience of our relationship to Deity. Did you read the text Enno?

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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Salvation does not depend upon fusion. Fusion is simply another step of progress forward into destiny


Salvation in the sense of waking up on the Mansion worlds is one thing, but FINAL, certain, eternal salvation can only come with fusion. From there, there's no turning back. Fusion is not just simply another step forward. It is THE step, imo.

And, it is not simply done, either. If it was simple, people would be going off in chariots of fire all the time. They are not. It is a BIG DEAL.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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fanofVan wrote:
:roll:


When someone asked Jesus a question, I don't think he ever rolled his eyes at them. Do you?


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
:roll:


When someone asked Jesus a question, I don't think he ever rolled his eyes at them. Do you?


Sure he did! How often did he ask - "How long must I "bear" - (endure - put up with - entertain) such immaturity and obstinance and impatience and blindness??!!" Many times indeed!!

:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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Oh, please...spare us that comparison. Jesus was always kind and tolerant, more than an eye-roller.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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maryjo606 wrote:
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Salvation does not depend upon fusion. Fusion is simply another step of progress forward into destiny


Salvation in the sense of waking up on the Mansion worlds is one thing, but FINAL, certain, eternal salvation can only come with fusion. From there, there's no turning back. Fusion is not just simply another step forward. It is THE step, imo.

And, it is not simply done, either. If it was simple, people would be going off in chariots of fire all the time. They are not. It is a BIG DEAL.


Salvation is not about waking up on the Mansion Worlds either. Hmmmm....

Salvation - survival of material death (more commonly known as "resurrection") - fusion - finality. All and each very distinct one from another. Each fully presented in the Revelation.

Happy to explore each...and all!!

But the claim here was that "true salvation" is same as fusion....a direct contradiction of the UB....as pointed out by posting the only quote in the UB that includes "true salvation". That claim is false...or at least it is false according to the text.

Resurrection is also not salvation but is indeed another evolutionary step of personal religious experience and progress within the reality of true salvation. Or so I understand the text to teach.

And it is THAT teaching i believe we are here to discover and discuss??

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:50 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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maryjo606 wrote:
Oh, please...spare us that comparison. Jesus was always kind and tolerant, more than an eye-roller.


I hope I too am "more than" an eye roller?

:-# :-s


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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I may believe that I am saved here, according to all those quotes you posted, which are all well and good and truly inspiring. But until I actually wake up in the next world, I am always going to have a kernel of unease about it. The older I get, the smaller that kernel gets, but I know I am not alone in that. What I do have is faith that I am saved and faith in the goodness of God to pull me through.

To me, that equates to final experience of salvation that will not require faith any more because it will be very real.


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maryjo606 wrote:
I may believe that I am saved here, according to all those quotes you posted, which are all well and good and truly inspiring. But until I actually wake up in the next world, I am always going to have a kernel of unease about it. The older I get, the smaller that kernel gets, but I know I am not alone in that. What I do have is faith that I am saved and faith in the goodness of God to pull me through.

To me, that equates to final experience of salvation that will not require faith any more because it will be very real.


Will we lose our need for faith upon fusion? A most interesting proposition. A worthy topic for study. I think I agree....let's see what the UB says...

When is faith completely displaced by experience, knowledge, and wisdom in our spiritization and religious experience????

:wink: 8)

19:5.12 (221.2) And from all this, you mortals, just now taking your first step on the eternal journey, can well see that you must advance a long way before you will progress by “sight” and “material” assurance. You will long use faith and be dependent on revelation if you hope to progress quickly and safely.

Hmmmm.... It appears we remain faith dependent to some degree - even beyond fusion.....even to the shores of Havona itself.....

27:1.3 (299.3) But the last metamorphic sleep is something more than those previous transition slumbers which have marked the successive status attainments of the ascendant career; thereby do the creatures of time and space traverse the innermost margins of the temporal and the spatial to attain residential status in the timeless and spaceless abodes of Paradise. The instigators and the complements of rest are just as essential to this transcending metamorphosis as are the seraphim and associated beings to the mortal creature’s survival of death.

27:1.4 (299.4) You enter the rest on the final Havona circuit and are eternally resurrected on Paradise. And as you there spiritually repersonalize, you will immediately recognize the instigator of rest who welcomes you to the eternal shores as the very primary supernaphim who produced the final sleep on the innermost circuit of Havona; and you will recall the last grand stretch of faith as you once again made ready to commend the keeping of your identity into the hands of the Universal Father.

27:1.5 (299.5) The last rest of time has been enjoyed; the last transition sleep has been experienced; now you awake to life everlasting on the shores of the eternal abode. “And there shall be no more sleep. The presence of God and his Son are before you, and you are eternally his servants; you have seen his face, and his name is your spirit. There shall be no night there; and they need no light of the sun, for the Great Source and Center gives them light; they shall live forever and ever. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:30 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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feel free to open a new topic.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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fanofVan wrote:
such immaturity and obstinance and impatience and blindness??!!"

I think I'm on a roll LOL.

Quote:
140:3.11 Happy are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Happy are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
such immaturity and obstinance and impatience and blindness??!!"

I think I'm on a roll LOL.

Quote:
140:3.11 Happy are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Happy are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.


Hmmm....

The snippet you post above from me describes the Apostles as a source of frequent exasperation for the Master, who is quoted well over a dozen times in the UB wondering how long he must bear with such density and lack of understanding on a wide variety of topics. Nothing about persecution at all.


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:15 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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fanofVan wrote:
The snippet you post above from me describes the Apostles

LOL now you're on a roll.

Quote:
48:6.33 The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose


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