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 Post subject: How Much is Enough?
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How Much is Enough?

It is easy to say, “I believe in God” as this statement makes no confession of what one might mean by it. Lots of people believe in God, that is, they believe he exists even if only in theory. Only a few believe Him. Believing another person requires interacting with that person. Believing God commits one to behave as one who “knows and knows he knows”.

God promises us ETERNAL LIFE, “the endless pursuit of infinite value”. That’s right, Eternal Life is not the accumulation of infinite substance or even the comprehension of infinite meaning. It is the realization of infinite value. That is a big gift. It is everything. I will give you everything if you give me one thing in return, he says. That one thing is revealed by his one requirement, I want you to love me completely; to believe me. He says, first I want you to believe in me, but you must learn to do that by believing me, by choosing to discover me, my way. His way is to redirect the focus of our lives from our individual selves and what we get out of it, to him and discover ourselves by what we put into it.

For that gift returned to him we are free to live forever. But it is not a one-and-done program. It is a give him now and forever as much as within us is, type program. We cannot over respond. He makes that truly clear. He also makes it truly clear to any who listen, we can under respond. It is this kind of gift because of its nature. It is inherent in the gift he gave to us when we were designed.

But apparently there is a problem in our perception of just what this whole process entails. We seem to want to fall into two categories of adherents. This is an historical problem which was first introduced vaguely by the Prince then Adam, and much less vaguely by Melchizedek and then clarified greatly by Jesus. The Prince was the first to introduce a concept of a celestial “heaven” to mortal man. Adam clarified that somewhat. Melchizedek saved the planet from forgetting that completely. He had been on a mission to establish the reality concept of One God and a celestially structured universe. But revelation is progressive, and Melchizedek taught as was needed at the time. Remember, the people of that era had no idea who or what Jesus was. Then Jesus comes and for the first time we learn that this place Moses called heaven is real and we can each choose to live there if we want to.

So, gradually we are taught that there is a God and we can go live with him. We can even do it right now. Then we are taught how. Enter the Urantia Book into our material plain of reality and all that historical precedent is greatly clarified. Now we have a new view of the reality of God seeking man and as well, a new view of the reality of man seeking God. Great good news, right? Yeah, but! The Urantia Book isn't a ‘someone’, it is a ‘something’. Historically, revelation has always been a ‘someone’. Is this an issue for us to solve? I believe it is. If God presents us with a problem, what must be our response, if, that is, if we love him? We must discover God’s solution, his idea of what we are to do regarding the Urantia Book. Is the work of our lives to simply pass it around and learn what it says?

He has guided me to realize my need is to personalize the Urantia teachings. I do that by internalizing them, by infusing my human material based reality with the reality revealed in the papers. The world needs to know the reality base revealed in the papers. I cannot do that simply by sharing the book or even the book's teachings. I can only do that as I allow myself to adopt the reality revealed through the teachings as my reality. This is done as I allow my identity to become the same as our inner spiritual guidance; to learn to experience seeing “eye to eye” with my Thought Adjuster.

93:3.6 Melchizedek taught his followers all they had capacity to receive and assimilate. Even many modern religious ideas about heaven and earth, of man, God, and angels, are not far removed from these teachings of Melchizedek. But this great teacher subordinated everything to the doctrine of one God, a universe Deity, a heavenly Creator, a divine Father. Emphasis was placed upon this teaching for the purpose of appealing to man’s adoration and of preparing the way for the subsequent appearance of Michael as the Son of this same Universal Father.

93:3.7 Melchizedek taught that at some future time another Son of God would come in the flesh as he had come, but that he would be born of a woman; and that is why numerous later teachers held that Jesus was a priest, or minister, “forever after the order of Melchizedek.”

93:3.8 And thus did Melchizedek prepare the way and set the monotheistic stage of world tendency for the bestowal of an actual Paradise Son of the one God, whom he so vividly portrayed as the Father of all, and whom he represented to Abraham as a God who would accept man on the simple terms of personal faith.
And Michael, when he appeared on earth, confirmed all that Melchizedek had taught concerning the Paradise Father.

93:6.4 This covenant of Melchizedek with Abraham represents the great Urantian agreement between divinity and humanity whereby God agrees to do everything; man only agrees to believe God’s promises and follow his instructions. Heretofore it had been believed that salvation could be secured only by works — sacrifices and offerings; now, Melchizedek again brought to Urantia the good news that salvation, favor with God, is to be had by faith. But this gospel of simple faith in God was too advanced; the Semitic tribesmen subsequently preferred to go back to the older sacrifices and atonement for sin by the shedding of bloo.

So, let us look a little deeper into this. The papers reveal that true salvation is not achieved until we fuse with our Thought Adjuster. That is repeatedly made clear. But we have this other barrier that we get hung up on. It is called death. The physical mechanism loses its essential vital motion and no longer can support the reality of our personality and soul. What do we lose at that moment known as death? We lose physicality, material mindedness and intellect, and, we lose consciousness of identity. What do we keep? We keep personality, spirit, and soul (whatever that is). Then when our name is called, our parts are transported to Mansonia Number 1 and we are re-vitalized. We are supplied with a new form that replaces the material body we left behind. We are re-conscious-ized (resurrected) when personality, soul and the new Morontia body with a Morontia intellect are assembled and reconnected with the divine spirit, the Thought Adjuster.

We awaken “right where we left off”. Nothing is gained except the experience of having survived death. But something is lost, and we must be clear on that. What is lost is our conscious awareness of the part of our historical existence that has not been willed to God, transferred to spirit identity. The material mind, that function of our human being we formerly used to do our thinking about earning our living, planning and living our earthly lives; that part of our personality we identified with as ‘us’, the portion we used to compare our achievements to those of others and by which we built a sense of our accomplishments, great or small, is missing. We no longer are truck drivers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, drug addicts, social workers, politicians, dock workers, clerks, Uber drivers, computer programmers, bloggers, retirees, athletes, kings, rock stars, actors, successful, unsuccessful, rich, poor or any other human categorization. To God we aren’t the totality of what we did in life, we are only what we are now in Truth. We are only the divinely related character of whatever we were, the character and the personality we have spiritually identified, however faintly. The person we are goes on, flaws and all, but the substance of our lives that was purely self-oriented does not. Our historical interaction with God is our permanent substance. The components that make us who we are remain, but the history of our life that was not pertinent to the spiritual reality of our future has disappeared. Consequently, we are the same ‘us', i.e., personal character only we have a new mind and a new body and a new outlook on life.

The great challenge for each of us while we are here, therefore, is to transfer as much of our human based identity to our realization of spirit as we can. Being fully self-aware is the measure of cosmic circle attainment. Being fully self-aware cannot be achieved by purely self-directed effort for only our Thought Adjuster who knows the true intricacies of our potential can direct the best practices path for each of us. Consequently, turning that potential ‘us' into the actual ‘us’ requires a separate process, one we can experience exclusively by doing.

The Thought Adjuster reveals our opportunity to face ourselves in an order most appropriate to true personal realization, but it is we ourselves who must decide to identify these most deeply personal visions he shows us of ourselves, visions we are generally reluctant to see, as ourselves and in doing so embrace the Thought Adjusters alternatives. As we do this, we begin to realize the reality of ourselves. I say we are reluctant because as we accept these visions of ourselves, we also see the disparity between our self-view of us and God's view of us. The disparity reveals our real identity to us. As we accept this disparity as our real self, we are offered the opportunity to embrace the alternative suggested by the Thought Adjuster. It is here we must decide to cease being the previous vision of ourselves (repent), and move forward as one who is now self-aware of the God given alternative. Here we identify as having decided to embrace God’s vision of us on this one issue, whatever it may be. At least we can now do that relative to the single issue the Thought Adjusters vision revealed to us. This practice of allowing God to reveal our disparities as he offers our spiritual counterparts is the engine of spiritual growth. This is the work of the mansion worlds. This is what humanity knows as ‘repenting’ of sin. This is the actual process that has driven all the confusion in our minds over what it takes to be saved.

Here is a real conundrum for us here on Urantia. We are taught that simple faith is all that is required to move on in life forever. Because we don’t have any concept of what that really means, only ideas and ideals, we are categorically unable to properly justify our thoughts. Consequently, we have the two categories of adherents as I said in the beginning. I have noticed that these two categories have established themselves rather uniformly over the last two hundred centuries so that even now with the Urantia Book we still have them. Many of the comments given by Celestials in these papers are supporting of the idea that we all are to be saved while the alternative position is not opposing that but it calls attention to the human requirement to be deliberate in this choice. There are a number of places in the papers where we are told directly that while the choice is simple and available for everyone, it also must be deliberate. So, maybe the real question is what is meant by deliberate?

There is an apocryphal story of an old farmer who was known to be a man of few words. He didn’t even talk with his wife much. After all the kids had moved out the farmer’s wife went to a marriage counselor to see if she could get some help with his unwillingness to communicate. After some coaxing the farmer decided to attend a session. In the session the counselor asked the farmer why he didn’t talk and more specifically, why he never told his wife that he loved her. The farmer looked at his wife and answered, “Look, I told you I loved you when I married you. If that changes, I will let you know!” The point I am making is that they each had different expectations. Neither was disingenuous. But they needed help resolving the discord that was caused. We may willingly identify as believing in God, but are we doing whatever it takes to adopt his view of us, to believe God? Our lives are on the line here folks.

When attempting to resolve viewpoints between two persons, both views are considered equal unless there is a hierarchy. Parents out rank children and so forth. All views are not equal. When I say I am being deliberate in my decision to do God’s will, the standard of deliberate isn’t determined by me, it is determined by God’s view of my capacity for deliberateness. The standard to be adhered to is not my idea of his idea, it is his idea of my idea. It is incumbent on me to address the difference in concept. This is the great challenge of faith. I must be willing to confront my own shortcomings to find out as much as I can about my truest, deepest, most personal decisions. Taking his grace for granted or allowing myself to use “mercy credits” as if there is no consequence, reveals much less about God and his grace and mercy, than it does about me and how serious I am in applying my will to the challenge of growing spiritually. Because of this I don’t take this lightly. I never intentionally assume that I am succeeding in my faith, so I never give up trying to realize his approval of my efforts. But I don’t deny my faith successes either.

I know the reasons to believe and exercise faith. But for the life of me, I cannot find a single reason to relax until I experience fusion, which is salvation. There is only one life to live, one way to live it, one reality. Now is the only time I have. I am not in a hurry, but God made me to be productive, to use my talents in a way only he knows. I will never give up trying to realize the fullness of his idea of me. My commitment is not to simply give him my best, that is not only not good enough, it is not genuine, not real. Giving him my best allows me to determine what that is, and I cannot do that and be real with him. If I am going to be real with God, I must put it all on the table. Therefore, my commitment is to give him my all and let him sort out the acceptable from the unacceptable. The hard part then, becomes my willingness to identify and work to change the unacceptable parts as he calls my attention to them in the timing and order he decides, whether I like his plan or not. This is the hard part of climbing the rope. Frankly, it can get frustrating and humiliating when I am thinking I am doing fine, and he lets me know otherwise.

How, I wonder, can we be so contentious if we have the same goals? Remember, fusion is the first goal for all of us. It is the only goal there is. It is not something we can get to later, now is the only time we have, now is the only time we will ever have. If we do not use the ‘now’, we may fail to realize the one opportunity given to each of us.

The essence of all this is in my developing a personal philosophy of religion, of life. Developing this personal religion is, well, personal. My personality is a gift from the Father. Will, my individual and personal will, is a manifestation of my personality. I can use this (my) will because I am a person. It is my personal ability to use my will that chooses how I determine my path. I either choose to live by God’s will or I choose to live by my own. One way is inclusive, I live by being included in God’s life plan; the other way is exclusive, I live the life of my own exclusive design. The Father gets credit for all achievements. For each life decision, I must consciously and conscientiously choose to enable it, decision after decision after decision.

So, on we go learning to share our experience of loving God.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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Hmmmmm.....indeed...how much is enough?

So many claims and declarations which directly refute and contradict the Papers...still and again...more of the same. Sigh... :roll:

Jim claims above: "Lots of people believe in God, that is, they believe he exists even if only in theory. Only a few believe Him. Believing another person requires interacting with that person."


There you go again.....how do you know that "only a few believe Him." What a judgmental claim of arrogant and prideful presumption and impossible knowledge about 7 billion fellow souls!!!!

Everyone with a soul is interacting with God according to the UB!! WOW!! Still claiming to know what others are and are not doing and what others should and should not be doing. Absurd. Claiming to speak for God to others. Dangerous.

Your personal lack of understanding about faith you describe and claim for yourself above is obviously true but certainly not universal or necessary...if you understood the contents of the Papers.

You also claim we only get one chance for survival and salvation???? A singular, one time, cannot miss chance?? Really?? Text please? Another complete misrepresentation of the text Jim. And a real doozey too!

I thought the UB teaches that we must eventually make an informed and final choice AGAINST survival and salvation which is unlikely even possible in the material life?

112:5.7 (1233.3) If ever there is doubt as to the advisability of advancing a human identity to the mansion worlds, the universe governments invariably rule in the personal interests of that individual; they unhesitatingly advance such a soul to the status of a transitional being, while they continue their observations of the emerging morontia intent and spiritual purpose. Thus divine justice is certain of achievement, and divine mercy is accorded further opportunity for extending its ministry.

112:5.8 (1233.4) The governments of Orvonton and Nebadon do not claim absolute perfection for the detail working of the universal plan of mortal repersonalization, but they do claim to, and actually do, manifest patience, tolerance, understanding, and merciful sympathy. We had rather assume the risk of a system rebellion than to court the hazard of depriving one struggling mortal from any evolutionary world of the eternal joy of pursuing the ascending career.

112:5.9 (1233.5) This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all. But it does signify that all will creatures are to experience one true opportunity to make one undoubted, self-conscious, and final choice. The sovereign Judges of the universes will not deprive any being of personality status who has not finally and fully made the eternal choice; the soul of man must and will be given full and ample opportunity to reveal its true intent and real purpose.

Me here: You also falsely claim we don't remember our lives here. Not true either. Don't we remember people? And mistakes? Remember our reversion therapy ?? Isn't wisdom experiential? We don't remember our progress? Text please on limits of mortal remembrance and memory contents/transcripts.

You also falsely claim we are not the "totality" of our experience and being!! Say what!!!!???? Of course we are. As evolutionary and experiential beings we are always and forever exactly and precisely the totality of our being and experience!!

The TA does not create an "alternate" me...but, rather, pilots me on a progressive and perfecting journey and freewill spiritization which experientially takes long past fusion and even Paradise finality to achieve spirit status!! Personality freewill and selfhood are both inviolate absolutes of universe reality. There is no alternate me...or you Jim.

As to memories:

47:3.3 (533.1) The mortal-mind transcripts and the active creature-memory patterns as transformed from the material levels to the spiritual are the individual possession of the detached Thought Adjusters; these spiritized factors of mind, memory, and creature personality are forever a part of such Adjusters. The creature mind-matrix and the passive potentials of identity are present in the morontia soul intrusted to the keeping of the seraphic destiny guardians. And it is the reuniting of the morontia-soul trust of the seraphim and the spirit-mind trust of the Adjuster that reassembles creature personality and constitutes resurrection of a sleeping survivor.

48:4.20 (550.1) The principles of Urantian play life are philosophically sound and continue to apply on up through your ascending life, through the circuits of Havona to the eternal shores of Paradise. As ascendant beings you are in possession of personal memories of all former and lower existences, and without such identity memories of the past there would be no basis for the humor of the present, either mortal laughter or morontia mirth. It is this recalling of past experiences that provides the basis for present diversion and amusement.....


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:56 am +0000, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Much is Enough?
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Jim, thanks for this thoughtful essay.

Quote:
He has guided me to realize my need is to personalize the Urantia teachings. I do that by internalizing them, by infusing my human material based reality with the reality revealed in the papers. The world needs to know the reality base revealed in the papers. I cannot do that simply by sharing the book or even the book's teachings. I can only do that as I allow myself to adopt the reality revealed through the teachings as my reality. This is done as I allow my identity to become the same as our inner spiritual guidance; to learn to experience seeing “eye to eye” with my Thought Adjuster.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. The Urantia Book gives us mortals a whole new paradigm with which to understand reality, to understand our place in God's creation. And we can live in this new spiritual civilization instantly. We can enjoy the kingdom and its benefits now. And it's from that place that we can hopefully - by our own lives - attract others, or at least love and fellowship them as well as we know how.

I like the idea of accruing more and more experiences that can go with me to the next worlds...truly worthwhile experiences. I know there's a lot that won't go with me from my past, but with increased awareness now, maybe more WILL go with me as good memories. I don't want to forget my life here...

Quote:
47:4.5 Your Adjuster memory remains fully intact as you ascend the morontia life. Those mental associations that were purely animalistic and wholly material naturally perished with the physical brain, but everything in your mental life which was worth while, and which had survival value, was counterparted by the Adjuster and is retained as a part of personal memory all the way through the ascendant career. You will be conscious of all your worth-while experiences as you advance from one mansion world to another and from one section of the universe to another—even to Paradise


Thanks again...always enjoy reading your essays about how you digest the teachings of The Urantia Book.


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Brad,

Maybe our differences could best be characterized as being similar to warp and woof. Just to be clear to all since warp and woof are somewhat archaic, they are weaving terms referencing the different direction of thread progression in a fabric. The Urantia Book uses this analogy to describe a manner of perceiving morontia reality. We read in the Forward at 0:5.12, “Morontia is a term designating a vast level intervening between the material and the spiritual. It may designate personal or impersonal realities, living or nonliving energies. The warp of morontia is spiritual; its woof is physical.”

If this characterization is at all pertinent, and it must be or the revelators would not have used it, we might properly comprehend that spiritual energy reality and material or physical energy reality intersect at various and vastly different angles forming the morontia plane. Remember, the papers state that spirit, mind and material are each substance, though of different orders. Since we have no experiential cognizance of the dimensional plane of morontia or of spirit, we must allow ourselves the freedom to forecast our concepts.

That these different substances intersect at different angles may present to the observer the illusion of similarity and commonality as long as the observation and identification of the joined region being analyzed are in the awareness framework of an individual. However, because of the progressive forward motion of life in every direction, they separate just as quickly. Consequently, the commonality of comprehension and understanding may be fleeting or even nonexistent. Or said differently, the observation of the similarity of a spiritual view and/or an intellectual view on a specific issue is only true and real as it is experienced by an observer and within that observer’s experience. This may be why Truth is only real when it is experienced.

So, like the threads of a cloth, the warp and the woof are neither opposite directions of travel nor are they parallel, yet both are required to obtain the combined substance of the cloth. Further, we only are relating to two referential planes. How many will we be required to allow for as we move on in God’s infinite reality? In reference to the differences here, I might conclude that there are definitions for our differences that would assist us in learning to appreciate the continuity of other reality directions; that is as long as we can keep open minded enough to make such observations flexible.

MaryJo, thank you for your kind comment.

Jim


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While I appreciate the olive branch and attempt to explain away these differences noted above as merely personal perspectives, it is not my opinion you disagree with but it is the text of the UB you misstate, misrepresent, refute, and contradict. Obviously so by the actual text posted here and within your many abandoned sermons and fables and opinion pieces here.

Please learn to speak for yourself and eliminate all the "us" and "we" and "our" references. And let the UB speak for itself.


Jim says above: "We lose physicality, material mindedness and intellect, and, we lose consciousness of identity. What do we keep? We keep personality, spirit, and soul (whatever that is)."

Hmmmm....unsure what soul is? There are over 500 text quotes on the word itself and far more content on the subject. Would you like to explore the meaning of soul???

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

We don't lose intellect or mindedness Jim. Text please. Nor do we lose identity or selfhood. We don't lose our memories either as you claim above. All these are preserved and reunited with full identity and selfhood and freewill ...and with a new body too!....on Mansonia.

47:3.3 (533.1) The mortal-mind transcripts and the active creature-memory patterns as transformed from the material levels to the spiritual are the individual possession of the detached Thought Adjusters; these spiritized factors of mind, memory, and creature personality are forever a part of such Adjusters. The creature mind-matrix and the passive potentials of identity are present in the morontia soul intrusted to the keeping of the seraphic destiny guardians. And it is the reuniting of the morontia-soul trust of the seraphim and the spirit-mind trust of the Adjuster that reassembles creature personality and constitutes resurrection of a sleeping survivor.

111:2.10 (1218.8) The inevitable result of such a contactual spiritualization of the human mind is the gradual birth of a soul, the joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe which are under the overcontrol of an actual fragment of the very God of all creation—the Mystery Monitor. And thus does the material and mortal reality of the self transcend the temporal limitations of the physical-life machine and attain a new expression and a new identification in the evolving vehicle for selfhood continuity, the morontia and immortal soul.


8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:57 am +0000, edited 4 times in total.

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Thank you for your encouraging words Jim. They always add to the many reasons I have for getting out of bed in the morning with a greater determination (than the day before) to make progress in being better at doing God's will and fulfilling His plans.

A few comments:

Jim George wrote:
How, I wonder, can we be so contentious if we have the same goals?


I have thought about this a lot. The only way this circumstance resolves in my mind is that people who appear to have the same goal really have goals that are not the same at all. Which is fine I guess.


Jim George wrote:
Remember, fusion is the first goal for all of us. It is the only goal there is. It is not something we can get to later, now is the only time we have, now is the only time we will ever have. If we do not use the ‘now’, we may fail to realize the one opportunity given to each of us.


This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes that's on my list of things that I get out of bed with every morning. I'm the only one who's living my life so I'm very careful, as I believe I'm supposed to be, to not squander the one talent I have, like I know God's given everyone else.


Quote:
28:6.9 3. The Import of Time. Time is the one universal endowment of all will creatures; it is the “one talent” intrusted to all intelligent beings. You all have time in which to insure your survival; and time is fatally squandered only when it is buried in neglect, when you fail so to utilize it as to make certain the survival of your soul. Failure to improve one's time to the fullest extent possible does not impose fatal penalties; it merely retards the pilgrim of time in his journey of ascent. If survival is gained, all other losses can be retrieved.


There's that doggone 'if' again lol. The one 'if' I'll never take for granted. Which gives me a great peace of mind.


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Jim still preaches the primitive paganistic Christian and Paulinian requirements of repentance and the lie of universal sinfulness and the superstitious mandates of survival, salvation, and resurrection above...and in all his previous sermons and so called essays. The UB has much to say on these matters which contradict Jim's proclamations.

174:1.1 (1898.1) For several days Peter and James had been engaged in discussing their differences of opinion about the Master’s teaching regarding the forgiveness of sin. They had both agreed to lay the matter before Jesus, and Peter embraced this occasion as a fitting opportunity for securing the Master’s counsel. Accordingly, Simon Peter broke in on the conversation dealing with the differences between praise and worship, by asking: “Master, James and I are not in accord regarding your teachings having to do with the forgiveness of sin. James claims you teach that the Father forgives us even before we ask him, and I maintain that repentance and confession must precede the forgiveness. Which of us is right? what do you say?”

174:1.2 (1898.2) After a short silence Jesus looked significantly at all four and answered: “My brethren, you err in your opinions because you do not comprehend the nature of those intimate and loving relations between the creature and the Creator, between man and God. You fail to grasp that understanding sympathy which the wise parent entertains for his immature and sometimes erring child. It is indeed doubtful whether intelligent and affectionate parents are ever called upon to forgive an average and normal child. Understanding relationships associated with attitudes of love effectively prevent all those estrangements which later necessitate the readjustment of repentance by the child with forgiveness by the parent.

174:1.3 (1898.3) “A part of every father lives in the child. The father enjoys priority and superiority of understanding in all matters connected with the child-parent relationship. The parent is able to view the immaturity of the child in the light of the more advanced parental maturity, the riper experience of the older partner. With the earthly child and the heavenly Father, the divine parent possesses infinity and divinity of sympathy and capacity for loving understanding. Divine forgiveness is inevitable; it is inherent and inalienable in God’s infinite understanding, in his perfect knowledge of all that concerns the mistaken judgment and erroneous choosing of the child. Divine justice is so eternally fair that it unfailingly embodies understanding mercy.


Me here: The text posted does NOT say that forgiveness or mercy requires repentance or that repentance is required for the immaturity of human error/evil. It says that forgiveness is a function of the reality of God's relationship with his children.

Repentance is for the deliberately sinful and rebellious who have hardened their hearts and forsaken the child-parent connection...and is not required for God's affection or forgiveness or mercy or the Divine connection and ministry of Assurance nor is it required for salvation and resurrection.

Truly must we understand the teachings regarding the profound differences between evil and sin to understand the teachings Jim has shared here. Jim apparently preaches and believes we are all horrible sinners cut off from God. This is not true. Perhaps Jim needs repentance...that is for him to know. But it's not okay for anyone to proclaim the relationship of ANY OTHER being with God and the Spirit within.

And it defies the Papers to believe or claim that the tadpoles of Urantia are inherently sinful and require redemption. This is NOT what Jesus believed or taught nor what the UB teaches either. Jim proclaims Paulinian doctrines here and defies the UB.

Jim keeps telling us what we must DO to be saved but Jesus taught the resurrection comes by way of the parent-child connection of relationship demonstrated by the child's faith and trust and hope and ideals and morality and fruits of the Spirit AND by the Divine Assurance of affection and patience and mercy and paternal perspective of watchcare and sympathy!!!

Jesus said:

148:4.8 (1660.7) “Men are, indeed, by nature evil, but not necessarily sinful. The new birth—the baptism of the spirit—is essential to deliverance from evil and necessary for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, but none of this detracts from the fact that man is the son of God. Neither does this inherent presence of potential evil mean that man is in some mysterious way estranged from the Father in heaven so that, as an alien, foreigner, or stepchild, he must in some manner seek for legal adoption by the Father. All such notions are born, first, of your misunderstanding of the Father and, second, of your ignorance of the origin, nature, and destiny of man.


150:5.5 (1683.2) In summing up his final statement, Jesus said: “You cannot buy salvation; you cannot earn righteousness. Salvation is the gift of God, and righteousness is the natural fruit of the spirit-born life of sonship in the kingdom. You are not to be saved because you live a righteous life; rather is it that you live a righteous life because you have already been saved, have recognized sonship as the gift of God and service in the kingdom as the supreme delight of life on earth. When men believe this gospel, which is a revelation of the goodness of God, they will be led to voluntary repentance of all known sin. Realization of sonship is incompatible with the desire to sin. Kingdom believers hunger for righteousness and thirst for divine perfection.”


140:10.1 (1584.4) That evening while teaching in the house, for it had begun to rain, Jesus talked at great length, trying to show the twelve what they must be, not what they must do. They knew only a religion that imposed the doing of certain things as the means of attaining righteousness—salvation. But Jesus would reiterate, “In the kingdom you must be righteous in order to do the work.” Many times did he repeat, “Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” All the while was the Master explaining to his bewildered apostles that the salvation which he had come to bring to the world was to be had only by believing, by simple and sincere faith. Said Jesus: “John preached a baptism of repentance, sorrow for the old way of living. You are to proclaim the baptism of fellowship with God. Preach repentance to those who stand in need of such teaching, but to those already seeking sincere entrance to the kingdom, open the doors wide and bid them enter into the joyous fellowship of the sons of God.” But it was a difficult task to persuade these Galilean fishermen that, in the kingdom, being righteous, by faith, must precede doing righteousness in the daily life of the mortals of earth.

140:10.2 (1584.5) Another great handicap in this work of teaching the twelve was their tendency to take highly idealistic and spiritual principles of religious truth and remake them into concrete rules of personal conduct. Jesus would present to them the beautiful spirit of the soul’s attitude, but they insisted on translating such teachings into rules of personal behavior. Many times, when they did make sure to remember what the Master said, they were almost certain to forget what he did not say. But they slowly assimilated his teaching because Jesus was all that he taught. What they could not gain from his verbal instruction, they gradually acquired by living with him.


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Jim George wrote:
Brad,

Maybe our differences could best be characterized as being similar to warp and woof.....

.... Since we have no experiential cognizance of the dimensional plane of morontia or of spirit, we must allow ourselves the freedom to forecast our concepts.

.... the commonality of comprehension and understanding may be fleeting or even nonexistent. Or said differently, the observation of the similarity of a spiritual view and/or an intellectual view on a specific issue is only true and real as it is experienced by an observer and within that observer’s experience. This may be why Truth is only real when it is experienced.

..... In reference to the differences here, I might conclude that there are definitions for our differences that would assist us in learning to appreciate the continuity of other reality directions; that is as long as we can keep open minded enough to make such observations flexible.

Jim


Hmmmmm......

The problem with this equivocation is that our disagreements are not about truth Jim....or interpretation....and neither are your many refutations and contradictions of the UB. The Papers are a recital and presentation of universe reality and the facts related thereto. Such facts and universe reality as presented in the Revelation are not "flexible" Jim.

It is these facts you defy and misstate and misrepresent and contradict. Your illogical excuses offered above for that habit do not explain these endless contradictions of the UB.

Our differences here are not about the understanding or appreciation or embrace of truth!! Good grief... In this one sermon you have factually contradicted the Papers directly and clearly multiple times and ways.

All of which you refuse to acknowledge or respond to when pointed out. And which indicates an agenda that lacks "truth"-fulness IMO.


Bradly. 8)


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Bradly, I think we all know by now how you feel about Jim and his essay. Please give it a rest. It is very off-putting to me, and likely for anyone else following along. Maybe you have forgotten that there is a new rule about Essays and Speeches:

Quote:
Essays and Speeches is a forum for those who wish to share their thoughts, feelings, opinions, and experiences regarding the teachings of The Urantia Book in essay form. Oftentimes, these posts involve personal experiences and personal understanding of the meanings and values of the book's teachings to the poster. Response and discussion are welcome; however, unless the post in this category is a blatant rebuttal of the teachings or of the book (in which case, they will be removed), or a clear attack on the book (also grounds for removal), responders are asked to refrain from challenging the posts as to content.


Your nit-picking is very unattractive and seems to be bordering on obsessiveness.

It is an ESSAY - not something that demands belief or acceptance by anyone. And essays do not even necessarily ask for comment. They are just easays concerning one person's thinking about their particular understanding of the teachings. There is nothing in that essay that I find concerning. But your continued unfriendly haranguing IS becoming concerning.

And just to be clear: Discussion is fine. Questions are fine. It is this atmosphere of belligerance and unfriendliness that is most glaring. It is unseemly and unnecessary.

MaryJo


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:biggrin:

I do look forward to further discussion and consideration of the very important concepts introduced in this essay regarding "true salvation", the birth of soul and its growth by personal faith based response to the Spirit, the more "deliberate" truth based and intentional spiritization and the unconscious growth which results, and the fruits of the Spirit which come to us by ALL valid religious experience, and the endless and uniquely personal ways in which such spiritualization is expressed.

My own belief is that nearly everyone I have met and those billions I have not met do experience and express their own Divine connection and have a personal religious experience and do experience soul growth by their hopes, idealisms, aspirations, love of others, prayers, generosity, morality, kindness....all of which can come by the faith experience of children, barbarians, those without any particular beliefs or knowledge, those with false beliefs and lacking education and intelligence, and to any who are not particularly deliberate or intentional in their religious beliefs and practices as other religionists might require and demand...or make personal judgments and claims about.

The UB teaches that all such mortal experience is valid and true and functional and fruitful religion and describes it as the personal evolutionary faith based religious experience which is the natural result of the mortal mind connection to the Holy Spirit and the Adjutants of Worship and Wisdom. This religious experience delivers the moral mind and the God Fragments and birth of soul and the Spirit of Truth ministries and continues its unconscious ministry after the birth of soul as well. The ministry and connection of the TA and Spirit of Truth is also primarily unconscious but now also delivers personal truth revelation we are told in the UB.

The UB teaches that our personal religious experience is of two distinct forms...the faith experience and the truth experience. By the first our soul is born and can grow and gain circle progress and spiritization can happen, and certainly is this light or glow or flicker of spiritization sufficient for salvation, survival, and resurrection....according to the Papers.

But this form if personal religious experience does not deliver the greatest mortal happiness or soul growth or wisdom or enlightenment or truth or fruits of the Spirit. That does indeed require a more deliberate and intentional pursuit of truth and relationship with the Spirit within. I believe this is described in the UB as being born again. This higher form of religious experience is also, I believe, common and widespread among my fellow 7 billion souls on Urantia.

It is true none of these 7 billion souls believe the same as me and each has their own perspective of reality and their own unique response to the Spirit within and many believe some really weird stuff and some claim no beliefs about the Spirit within (which is but another false belief among all the other false claims and beliefs about God and reality). But beliefs, according to the Papers, do not define or demonstrate our faith and religious experience and connection to the Spirit within.

I have long been compelled, even urgently so, to seek truth and embrace the Spirit deliberately and intentionally for the personal benefits inherent thereby. For the fruits of the Spirit are highly desirable and beneficial and come to those whose branch is not only attached to the vine by faith but who also respond to the Spirit deliberately and intentionally. The relationship between mortal and Spirit is a delightful and satisfying feast I would recommend to all!! If true and valid, it should eliminate anxieties and fears and reduce confusions and allow uncertainty to become the source of adventure and anticipation!! This is the promise within the Papers!!

100:6.6 (1101.1) One of the most amazing earmarks of religious living is that dynamic and sublime peace, that peace which passes all human understanding, that cosmic poise which betokens the absence of all doubt and turmoil. Such levels of spiritual stability are immune to disappointment...

8)

99:5.6 (1091.5) Any religious belief which is effective in spiritualizing the believer is certain to have powerful repercussions in the social life of such a religionist. Religious experience unfailingly yields the “fruits of the spirit” in the daily life of the spirit-led mortal.

103:0.1 (1129.1) ALL of man’s truly religious reactions are sponsored by the early ministry of the adjutant of worship and are censored by the adjutant of wisdom. Man’s first supermind endowment is that of personality encircuitment in the Holy Spirit of the Universe Creative Spirit; and long before either the bestowals of the divine Sons or the universal bestowal of the Adjusters, this influence functions to enlarge man’s viewpoint of ethics, religion, and spirituality. Subsequent to the bestowals of the Paradise Sons the liberated Spirit of Truth makes mighty contributions to the enlargement of the human capacity to perceive religious truths. As evolution advances on an inhabited world, the Thought Adjusters increasingly participate in the development of the higher types of human religious insight. The Thought Adjuster is the cosmic window through which the finite creature may faith-glimpse the certainties and divinities of limitless Deity, the Universal Father.

103:0.2 (1129.2) The religious tendencies of the human races are innate; they are universally manifested and have an apparently natural origin; primitive religions are always evolutionary in their genesis. As natural religious experience continues to progress, periodic revelations of truth punctuate the otherwise slow-moving course of planetary evolution.

103:0.3 (1129.3) On Urantia, today, there are four kinds of religion:

103:0.4 (1129.4) 1. Natural or evolutionary religion.

103:0.5 (1129.5) 2. Supernatural or revelatory religion.

103:0.6 (1129.6) 3. Practical or current religion, varying degrees of the admixture of natural and supernatural religions.

103:0.7 (1129.7) 4. Philosophic religions, man-made or philosophically thought-out theologic doctrines and reason-created religions.


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The question "How Much Is Enough?" is such a meaningless and irrelevant inquiry without the additional context of "For What?"

The mortal's evolutionary experience requires more time, experience, wisdom, and spiritization for every single step of progress!!

Eternal life is progressive and measured by the aggregation of all experience and the integration of that experience into an experiential reality-response demonstrating wisdom and spiritual growth and an increasingly objective reality perspective....which never ends!! At no time in such a life is enough "enough".

Personal growth and spiritual progress never ends in our quest to become perfect. The UB teaches that we have only managed to perfect our motives by the time we finish our Paradise career and become Finaliters!! That which is "enough" for fusion with our TA in the Local Universe is not nearly enough becoming Havona spirit beings or spiritized mortals of finality.

That which is "enough" for our 3rd Circle assignment of our personal guardian angel is not "enough" for fusion and that which is "enough" for resurrection from material death is a very different "enough" from ALL OF THOSE!!!!

According to the teachings of the UB we will never stop evolving and growing and perfecting...probably not ever.

The UB is quite clear and specific that progress on the Paradise Path is not measured by speed OR distance but only by direction and potential. It will take forever to reach our destiny...embrace the adventure and enjoy the journey!!

And be neither anxious nor impatient!!

HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH????????

1:0.3 (21.3) The enlightened worlds all recognize and worship the Universal Father, the eternal maker and infinite upholder of all creation. The will creatures of universe upon universe have embarked upon the long, long Paradise journey, the fascinating struggle of the eternal adventure of attaining God the Father. The transcendent goal of the children of time is to find the eternal God, to comprehend the divine nature, to recognize the Universal Father. God-knowing creatures have only one supreme ambition, just one consuming desire, and that is to become, as they are in their spheres, like him as he is in his Paradise perfection of personality and in his universal sphere of righteous supremacy. From the Universal Father who inhabits eternity there has gone forth the supreme mandate, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.” In love and mercy the messengers of Paradise have carried this divine exhortation down through the ages and out through the universes, even to such lowly animal-origin creatures as the human races of Urantia.

1:0.4 (22.1) This magnificent and universal injunction to strive for the attainment of the perfection of divinity is the first duty, and should be the highest ambition, of all the struggling creature creation of the God of perfection. This possibility of the attainment of divine perfection is the final and certain destiny of all man’s eternal spiritual progress.

1:0.5 (22.2) Urantia mortals can hardly hope to be perfect in the infinite sense, but it is entirely possible for human beings, starting out as they do on this planet, to attain the supernal and divine goal which the infinite God has set for mortal man; and when they do achieve this destiny, they will, in all that pertains to self-realization and mind attainment, be just as replete in their sphere of divine perfection as God himself is in his sphere of infinity and eternity. Such perfection may not be universal in the material sense, unlimited in intellectual grasp, or final in spiritual experience, but it is final and complete in all finite aspects of divinity of will, perfection of personality motivation, and God-consciousness.

1:0.6 (22.3) This is the true meaning of that divine command, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect,” which ever urges mortal man onward and beckons him inward in that long and fascinating struggle for the attainment of higher and higher levels of spiritual values and true universe meanings. This sublime search for the God of universes is the supreme adventure of the inhabitants of all the worlds of time and space.

HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH????????

26:9.1 (294.5) When the pilgrim soul attains the third circle of Havona, he comes under the tutelage of the Father guides, the older, highly skilled, and most experienced of the superaphic ministers. On the worlds of this circuit the Father guides maintain schools of wisdom and colleges of technique wherein all the beings inhabiting the central universe serve as teachers. Nothing is neglected which would be of service to a creature of time in this transcendent adventure of eternity attainment.

26:9.2 (294.6) The attainment of the Universal Father is the passport to eternity, notwithstanding the remaining circuits to be traversed. It is therefore a momentous occasion on the pilot world of circle number three when the transit trio announce that the last venture of time is about to ensue; that another creature of space seeks entry to Paradise through the portals of eternity.

26:9.3 (295.1) The test of time is almost over; the race for eternity has been all but run. The days of uncertainty are ending; the temptation to doubt is vanishing; the injunction to be perfect has been obeyed. From the very bottom of intelligent existence the creature of time and material personality has ascended the evolutionary spheres of space, thus proving the feasibility of the ascension plan while forever demonstrating the justice and righteousness of the command of the Universal Father to his lowly creatures of the worlds: “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.”

26:9.4 (295.2) Step by step, life by life, world by world, the ascendant career has been mastered, and the goal of Deity has been attained. Survival is complete in perfection, and perfection is replete in the supremacy of divinity. Time is lost in eternity; space is swallowed up in worshipful identity and harmony with the Universal Father. The broadcasts of Havona flash forth the space reports of glory, the good news that in very truth the conscientious creatures of animal nature and material origin have, through evolutionary ascension, become in reality and eternally the perfected sons of God.

HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH????

56:0.1 (637.1) GOD is unity. Deity is universally co-ordinated. The universe of universes is one vast integrated mechanism which is absolutely controlled by one infinite mind. The physical, intellectual, and spiritual domains of universal creation are divinely correlated. The perfect and imperfect are truly interrelated, and therefore may the finite evolutionary creature ascend to Paradise in obedience to the Universal Father’s mandate: “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.”

56:0.2 (637.2) The diverse levels of creation are all unified in the plans and administration of the Architects of the Master Universe. To the circumscribed minds of time-space mortals the universe may present many problems and situations which apparently portray disharmony and indicate absence of effective co-ordination; but those of us who are able to observe wider stretches of universal phenomena, and who are more experienced in this art of detecting the basic unity which underlies creative diversity and of discovering the divine oneness which overspreads all this functioning of plurality, better perceive the divine and single purpose exhibited in all these manifold manifestations of universal creative energy.

Me here: Truly only God knows how much is enough for each being's next step forward in perfecting progress. Those here who attempt to limit or define or determine how much of something is enough for something else or anything at all only demonstrate how much more understanding is needed by those who ask...How Much Is Enough?

Bradly 8)


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fanofVan wrote:

Does the expressive license of the personal essay abandon truthfulness and the integrity of the source material cited within the essay by the essayer? Is clear and direct misrepresentation of the source material itself an acceptable submission to a study group and student body OF that source material?

:?:


Jim proclaims above: "The papers reveal that true salvation is not achieved until we fuse with our Thought Adjuster. That is repeatedly made clear."

Really?? Actually, the term "true salvation" is a beginning and an evolutionary and religious experience and process by our Divine connections to the mind spirits and Holy Spirit as babes and children on this world of birth. It includes our natural tendencies to be altruistic, generous, kind, loving, and leads to that moral choice which delivers the God Fragment and personal revelation and inspiration!!

That is true salvation! My salvation is real and true...now! It has been real and true for a long time already I assure you.

I am so grateful for the gift of fact and truth which confirms this reality. Our connection to God is our true salvation. That does not require achievement I do not think.

103:7.2 (1137.7) True salvation is the technique of the divine evolution of the mortal mind from matter identification through the realms of morontia liaison to the high universe status of spiritual correlation. And as material intuitive instinct precedes the appearance of reasoned knowledge in terrestrial evolution, so does the manifestation of spiritual intuitive insight presage the later appearance of morontia and spirit reason and experience in the supernal program of celestial evolution, the business of transmuting the potentials of man the temporal into the actuality and divinity of man the eternal, a Paradise finaliter.


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103:7.2 (1137.7) True salvation is the technique of the divine evolution of the mortal mind from matter identification through the realms of morontia liaison to the high universe status of spiritual correlation. And as material intuitive instinct precedes the appearance of reasoned knowledge in terrestrial evolution, so does the manifestation of spiritual intuitive insight presage the later appearance of morontia and spirit reason and experience in the supernal program of celestial evolution, the business of transmuting the potentials of man the temporal into the actuality and divinity of man the eternal, a Paradise finaliter.


This indicates that only after one has gone "through the realms of morontia liaison to the high universe status of spiritual correlation" that true salvation is eternally settled. And to me, that DOES mean final fusion with the Adjuster.

It's a difference in perception, not a textual misrepresentation.


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maryjo606 wrote:
Quote:
103:7.2 (1137.7) True salvation is the technique of the divine evolution of the mortal mind from matter identification through the realms of morontia liaison to the high universe status of spiritual correlation. And as material intuitive instinct precedes the appearance of reasoned knowledge in terrestrial evolution, so does the manifestation of spiritual intuitive insight presage the later appearance of morontia and spirit reason and experience in the supernal program of celestial evolution, the business of transmuting the potentials of man the temporal into the actuality and divinity of man the eternal, a Paradise finaliter.


This indicates that only after one has gone "through the realms of morontia liaison to the high universe status of spiritual correlation" that true salvation is eternally settled. And to me, that DOES mean final fusion with the Adjuster.

It's a difference in perception, not a textual misrepresentation.


Oh? Very interesting position. But the text clearly says that "true salvation is the technique of the divine evolution" of the transfer of the seat of identity. Not something "eternally settled" or achieved or something that comes later or somewhere else. Such an important and profound teaching. True salvation is first and foremost dependent upon the relationship between creator and creature...as designed and accomplished BY the creator! This is not a function of "perception" but of universe reality as presented in the UB.

Even our commitment to eternity and future fusion is or can be assured in this life, or the next, but long before fusion itself. Here's what the UB teaches about fusion and our status as faith children prior to that "achievement". Which....is it an achievement really? Or the natural result of the Divine connections between creator and personality and mind? Interesting.

The subjects of salvation and survival and eternal ascendency are very interrelated and fascinating. Perhaps accuracy of those terms and definitions is desirable? I think so, yes.

Are you saved Maryjo? And yet...not fused? Remember the jubilees? Like true salvation, they are evolutionary steps of progress toward the eternal adventure!! True salvation is not fusion....by any definition delivered by or in the UB.

27:7.8 (305.1) After the attainment of the supreme satisfaction of the fullness of worship, you are qualified for admission to the Corps of the Finality. The ascendant career is well-nigh finished, and the seventh jubilee prepares for celebration. The first jubilee marked the mortal agreement with the Thought Adjuster when the purpose to survive was sealed; the second was the awakening in the morontia life; the third was the fusion with the Thought Adjuster; the fourth was the awakening in Havona; the fifth celebrated the finding of the Universal Father; and the sixth jubilee was the occasion of the Paradise awakening from the final transit slumber of time. The seventh jubilee marks entrance into the mortal finaliter corps and the beginning of the eternity service. The attainment of the seventh stage of spirit realization by a finaliter will probably signalize the celebration of the first of the jubilees of eternity.

40:6.1 (447.5) The mortal races stand as the representatives of the lowest order of intelligent and personal creation. You mortals are divinely beloved, and every one of you may choose to accept the certain destiny of a glorious experience, but you are not yet by nature of the divine order; you are wholly mortal. You will be reckoned as ascending sons the instant fusion takes place, but the status of the mortals of time and space is that of faith sons prior to the event of the final amalgamation of the surviving mortal soul with some type of eternal and immortal spirit.

40:6.2 (448.1) It is a solemn and supernal fact that such lowly and material creatures as Urantia human beings are the sons of God, faith children of the Highest. “Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God.” “As many as received him, to them gave he the power to recognize that they are the sons of God.” While “it does not yet appear what you shall be,” even now “you are the faith sons of God”; “for you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship, whereby you cry, ‘our Father.’” Spoke the prophet of old in the name of the eternal God: “Even to them will I give in my house a place and a name better than sons; I will give them an everlasting name, one that shall not be cut off.” “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into your hearts.”

40:6.3 (448.2) All evolutionary worlds of mortal habitation harbor these faith sons of God, sons of grace and mercy, mortal beings belonging to the divine family and accordingly called the sons of God. Urantia mortals are entitled to regard themselves as being the sons of God because:

40:6.4 (448.3) 1. You are sons of spiritual promise, faith sons; you have accepted the status of sonship. You believe in the reality of your sonship, and thus does your sonship with God become eternally real.

40:6.5 (448.4) 2. A Creator Son of God became one of you; he is your elder brother in fact; and if in spirit you become truly related brothers of Christ, the victorious Michael, then in spirit must you also be sons of that Father which you have in common—even the Universal Father of all.

40:6.6 (448.5) 3. You are sons because the spirit of a Son has been poured out upon you, has been freely and certainly bestowed upon all Urantia races. This spirit ever draws you toward the divine Son, who is its source, and toward the Paradise Father, who is the source of that divine Son.

40:6.7 (448.6) 4. Of his divine free-willness, the Universal Father has given you your creature personalities. You have been endowed with a measure of that divine spontaneity of freewill action which God shares with all who may become his sons.

40:6.8 (448.7) 5. There dwells within you a fragment of the Universal Father, and you are thus directly related to the divine Father of all the Sons of God.

7. Father-Fused Mortals
40:7.1 (448.8) The sending of Adjusters, their indwelling, is indeed one of the unfathomable mysteries of God the Father. These fragments of the divine nature of the Universal Father carry with them the potential of creature immortality. Adjusters are immortal spirits, and union with them confers eternal life upon the soul of the fused mortal.

40:7.2 (448.9) Your own races of surviving mortals belong to this group of the ascending Sons of God. You are now planetary sons, evolutionary creatures derived from the Life Carrier implantations and modified by the Adamic-life infusion, hardly yet ascending sons; but you are indeed sons of ascension potential—even to the highest heights of glory and divinity attainment—and this spiritual status of ascending sonship you may attain by faith and by freewill co-operation with the spiritualizing activities of the indwelling Adjuster. When you and your Adjusters are finally and forever fused, when you two are made one, even as in Christ Michael the Son of God and the Son of Man are one, then in fact have you become the ascending sons of God.


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Yes, my salvation is real, and has been for a long time. But I also know I can go back and reject it at any time prior to fusion.


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