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Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:41 am +0000


To commune with the Divine

It certainly has appeal Iris, Stacey, All,

According to this, worship is with Father. Prayer and communing is with the Son:

...When you deal with the practical affairs of your daily life, you are in the hands of the spirit personalities having origin in the Third Source and Center; you are co-operating with the agencies of the Conjoint Actor. And so it is: You worship God; pray to, and commune with, the Son; and work out the details of your earthly sojourn in connection with the intelligences of the Infinite Spirit operating on your world and throughout your universe.... p66

...He who lives in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit of the spirit and experience the supreme joy of yielding this spiritual harvest. If you will maintain this living spiritual connection with me, you will bear abundant fruit. If you abide in me and my words live in you, you will be able to commune freely with me, and then can my living spirit so infuse you that you may ask whatsoever my spirit wills and do all this with the assurance that the Father will grant us our petition.... p1945

But Jesus communed with Father:

...Much of this time Jesus was alone on the mountain near the camp. Occasionally he took with him Peter, James, or John, but more often he went off to pray or commune alone.... p1618

Michael, Great Brother, show Urantia the way to commune with Father.
Amen. Rick


Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:14 am +0000

The theme of Jesus' teaching on Mount Gerizim was: That he wants all men to see God as a Father-friend just as he (Jesus) is a brother-friend. And again and again he impressed upon them that love is the greatest relationship in the world—in the universe—just as truth is the greatest pronouncement of the observation of these divine relationships. 1615:5

In preaching the gospel of the kingdom, you are simply teaching friendship with God. And this fellowship will appeal alike to men and women in that both will find that which most truly satisfies their characteristic longings and ideals. 1766:05

Do not make the mistake of expecting to become strongly intellectually conscious of the outpoured Spirit of Truth. The spirit never creates a consciousness of himself, only a consciousness of Michael, the Son. From the beginning Jesus taught that the spirit would not speak of himself. The proof, therefore, of your fellowship with the Spirit of Truth is not to be found in your consciousness of this spirit but rather in your experience of enhanced fellowship with Michael. 2061:01-02

As you ascend the personality scale, first you learn to be loyal, then to love, then to be filial, and then may you be free 435:04
Last edited by Bonita on Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:11 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:25 am +0000

Iris wrote:Jesus communed with the Father as a human because his Spirit of Truth was not available to him. He himself is the Spirit of Truth and the Way to the Father. There is no other way for us to get to the Father but through him

Hi Iris and Rick,

Iris I don't think this is quite accurate. The part about the way to the Father through Jesus refers to our physical-travel ascent to Paradise. It does not refer to communication. We can and do communicate directly with God through the presence our Thought Adjusters.

Good thread here! Thanks,


Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:06 am +0000

I would agree with Vann, that in our spiritual life we can and do connect directly with God the Father if that's where our intention lies. We can and do connect with Jesus if Jesus is our focus rather than the Father. Prayer to the Father may not go through Jesus but directly to God -- prayer to Jesus may go through Jesus to the Father. Personally, I loved God and had a relationship with God long before I found Jesus -- Jesus is icing to the cake, but the prayer of the Muslim, Jew or the unbeliever is heard just as well as is the prayer of the devout religionist to whomever they pray. And I expect that sincere prayer, offered up before Jesus' advent on earth, was just as potent as it is since Jesus' time.

I believe that communion, unlike prayer, and as the first quote indicates, is only with the Son aspect of the Trinity although for us the point is pretty moot at this juncture in our spiritual development.

Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:31 am +0000

Thank you Larry, good additional comments.

So now I guess I would ask of Rick what the difference is between {communing} and simply {talking} to God? As I mentioned in another recent thread, we are to learn to relate to God as though He is a person standing right next to us, actually inside us. So we should learn to freely converse with God just as we would a friend standing right next to us. Formal prayers and Christian-styled supplications seem silly. It is as though God is far away and one is sending a message away to be received later, like mailing a letter. The UB wonderfully declares otherwise. The Kingdom of Heaven is inside us Image

Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:44 am +0000

Hello everyone,

Commune--communicate, converse, empathize, feel, connect, be in touch with.

I have been addressing most of my conversation to my TC, but now I will try giving equal time to Michael, and see how that works out. It seems like it would help quite a bit and add another dimension. Great clue, Rick and Iris, thanks.

Love to all,


Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:36 am +0000

When Jesus talked about "the living God," he referred to a personal Deity—the Father in heaven. The concept of the personality of Deity facilitates fellowship; it favors intelligent worship; it promotes refreshing trustfulness. Interactions can be had between nonpersonal things, but not fellowship. The fellowship relation of father and son, as between God and man, cannot be enjoyed unless both are persons. Only personalities can commune with each other, albeit this personal communion may be greatly facilitated by the presence of just such an impersonal entity as the Thought Adjuster. p31:1 1:7.1

"This entire relationship of a son to the Father, I know in perfection, for all that you must attain of sonship in the eternal future I have now already attained. The Son of Man is prepared to ascend to the right hand of the Father, so that in me is the way now open still wider for all of you to see God and, ere you have finished the glorious progression, to become perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." 142:7.13

"I am telling you these things while I am still with you that you may be the better prepared to endure those trials which are even now right upon us. And when this new day comes, you will be indwelt by the Son as well as by the Father. And these gifts of heaven will ever work the one with the other even as the Father and I have wrought on earth and before your very eyes as one person, the Son of Man. And this spirit friend will bring to your remembrance everything I have taught you." p1948:4 180:4.3

The indwelling Thought Adjuster unfailingly arouses in man's soul a true and searching hunger for perfection together with a far-reaching curiosity which can be adequately satisfied only by communion with God, the divine source of that Adjuster. The hungry soul of man refuses to be satisfied with anything less than the personal realization of the living God. 1119:05

The Creator or Sovereign Sons who preside over the destinies of the local universes stand in the place of both the Universal Father and the Eternal Son of Paradise. These Universe Sons receive, in the name of the Father, the adoration of worship and give ear to the pleas of their petitioning subjects throughout their respective creations. To the children of a local universe a Michael Son is, to all practical intents and purposes, God. He is the local universe personification of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son. p66:2 5:3.6

"When the bestowal Sons reveal new ways for man to find God, they are not creating these paths of divinity attainment; rather are they illuminating the everlasting highways of progression which lead through the presence of the Supreme to the person of the Paradise Father."1273:02

He lived this life in the flesh by the same mercy ministry that you all may live your lives on earth; and as he lived his mortal life in his day and as he was, so did he thereby set the example for all of us thus to live our lives in our day and as we are. You may not aspire to live his life, but you can resolve to live your lives even as, and by the same means that, he lived his. Jesus may not be the technical and detailed example for all the mortals of all ages on all the realms of this local universe, but he is everlastingly the inspiration and guide of all Paradise pilgrims from the worlds of initial ascension up through a universe of universes and on through Havona to Paradise. Jesus is the new and living way from man to God, from the partial to the perfect, from the earthly to the heavenly, from time to eternity.1426:00

I offer you the liberty of life and the joy of salvation. I proclaim the new and living way, the deliverance from evil and the breaking of the bondage of sin. I have come that you might have life, and have it eternally. 1792:01

The Eternal Son without reservation joined with the Universal Father in broadcasting that tremendous injunction to all creation: "Be you perfect, even as your Father in Havona is perfect." And ever since, that invitation-command has motivated all the survival plans and the bestowal projects of the Eternal Son and his vast family of co-ordinate and associated Sons. And in these very bestowals the Sons of God have become to all evolutionary creatures "the way, the truth, and the life". 86:02
Last edited by Bonita on Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:16 am +0000, edited 3 times in total.

Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:09 am +0000

Hi Iris,

Yes, while the TA's are pre-personal in being, they are still here as direct representatives of the Father. If we could not contact them in a meaningful way,....then their presence would have much less....meaning.

"The mission of the Thought Adjusters to the human races is to represent, to be, the Universal Father to the mortal creatures of time and space; that is the fundamental (primary) work of the divine gifts." pg 1185

Events Of The Sixth Year

"During this year Joseph and Mary had trouble with Jesus about his prayers. He insisted on talking to his heavenly Father much as he would talk to Joseph, his earthly father. This departure from the more solemn and reverent modes of communication with Deity was a bit disconcerting to his parents, especially to his mother, but there was no persuading him to change; he would say his prayers as he had been taught, after which he would insist on having 'just a little talk with my Father in heaven' " pg 1360

And I could go on to list many other such passages relating the same instances throughout Jesus' life. And this was instruction for us to go and do the same, not just something Jesus did because of who and what He is. Jesus likewise in turn instructed this technique to his apostles and others.

I am not trying to argue or belabor any of these points. Our TA's is God's "personal" presence here with us despite the fact the Adjusters themselves are pre-personal beings. That is how it works. God the Father is here and we can speak to Him and He hears and understands us.

And we can talk to Jesus also and He can hear and understand us. I celebrate this dual association.

Thanks to all !

Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:27 am +0000


So now I guess I would ask of Rick what the difference is between {communing} and simply {talking} to God?

That's one cool emoticon Vann,

What Iris calls communing, I call a hug with God. That's the closest I can get to it in words.

Talking, I do as you do, treat all three Gods as if they inside me. They are. One of these days I'm going to think something that elicits a verbal response and be shocked out my socks. I am at the feeling level, but I am beginning to see the road ahead better.

But in all honesty I can't deny that Father did say one word to me 35 years ago--no. When I asked if I should divorce. I ignored the answer and ended up another prodigal child. Thanks Father, for revelation and mercy.

Communing for me is much akin to that rich family feeling almost everybody senses at some point, a feeling of perfect belonging and acceptance of personal reality.



Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:21 am +0000

In a certain sense, this Spirit of Truth is the spirit of both the Universal Father and the Creator Son. 2061:01

Jesus continued to teach, saying: "When I have gone to the Father, and after he has fully accepted the work I have done for you on earth, and after I have received the final sovereignty of my own domain, I shall say to my Father: Having left my children alone on earth, it is in accordance with my promise to send them another teacher. And when the Father shall approve, I will pour out the Spirit of Truth upon all flesh. Already is my Father's spirit in your hearts, and when this day shall come, you will also have me with you even as you now have the Father. This new gift is the spirit of living truth. The unbelievers will not at first listen to the teachings of this spirit, but the sons of light will all receive him gladly and with a whole heart. And you shall know this spirit when he comes even as you have known me, and you will receive this gift in your hearts, and he will abide with you. You thus perceive that I am not going to leave you without help and guidance. I will not leave you desolate. Today I can be with you only in person. In the times to come I will be with you and all other men who desire my presence, wherever you may be, and with each of you at the same time. Do you not discern that it is better for me to go away; that I leave you in the flesh so that I may the better and the more fully be with you in the spirit? p1948:2 180:4.1

Slowly the apostles and many of the disciples were learning the meaning of Jesus' early declaration: "Unless you are born again, born of the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God." Nevertheless, to all who are honest of heart and sincere in faith, it remains eternally true: "Behold, I stand at the doors of men's hearts and knock, and if any man will open to me, I will come in and sup with him and will feed him with the bread of life; we shall be one in spirit and purpose, and so shall we ever be brethren in the long and fruitful service of the search for the Paradise Father." And so, whether few or many are to be saved altogether depends on whether few or many will heed the invitation: "I am the door, I am the new and living way, and whosoever wills may enter to embark upon the endless truth-search for eternal life."1829:04

The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind. But the mind that really discerns God, hears the indwelling Adjuster, is the pure mind. "Without holiness no man may see the Lord." All such inner and spiritual communion is termed spiritual insight. Such religious experiences result from the impress made upon the mind of man by the combined operations of the Adjuster and the Spirit of Truth as they function amid and upon the ideas, ideals, insights, and spirit strivings of the evolving sons of God. (1104:06)

The seventh circle. This level is entered when human beings develop the powers of personal choice, individual decision, moral responsibility, and the capacity for the attainment of spiritual individuality. This signifies the united function of the seven adjutant mind-spirits under the direction of the spirit of wisdom, the encircuitment of the mortal creature in the influence of the Holy Spirit, and, on Urantia, the first functioning of the Spirit of Truth, together with the reception of a Thought Adjuster in the mortal mind. Entrance upon the seventh circle constitutes a mortal creature a truly potential citizen of the local universe. 1210:08

Mankind can be unified only by the spiritual approach, and the Spirit of Truth is a world influence which is universal.
The coming of the Spirit of Truth purifies the human heart and leads the recipient to formulate a life purpose single to the will of God and the welfare of men. The material spirit of selfishness has been swallowed up in this new spiritual bestowal of selflessness. Pentecost, then and now, signifies that the Jesus of history has become the divine Son of living experience. The joy of this outpoured spirit, when it is consciously experienced in human life, is a tonic for health, a stimulus for mind, and an unfailing energy for the soul. 2065:06-07

Though the Spirit of Truth is poured out upon all flesh, this spirit of the Son is almost wholly limited in function and power by man's personal reception of that which constitutes the sum and substance of the mission of the bestowal Son. The Holy Spirit is partly independent of human attitude and partially conditioned by the decisions and co-operation of the will of man. Nevertheless, the ministry of the Holy Spirit becomes increasingly effective in the sanctification and spiritualization of the inner life of those mortals who the more fully obey the divine leadings.379:04-05
Last edited by Bonita on Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:19 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:36 am +0000

Iris wrote:When we talk to Jesus we are talking to the Father. That's just the way it works, they are one. Try as you might to separate the two, you will be laboring in vain.

Hi Iris,

I understand that Jesus IS God of all Nebadon, the Local Universe of His own creation, and that we must pass through (by) Him on our ascending way to Paradise. And Jesus speaks to us only what His Father has taught Him to say.

But your words as written are not accurate. You are essentially saying that Jesus = The Universal Father, they are the same person. And it is not so. They are separate persons and we can communicate with separately as such. That is my understanding from what the UB relates and I am clear on that....for me. So my labor is not in vain and I separate them just fine.

You are free to be clear on what seems clear to you. And I thank you for all your effort and time just the same.

Rick, yeah, this is the one of the crocks and the zebra from the comic strip, Pearls Before Swine. One of my favorites.

Be well !


Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:42 am +0000

p31:2 1:7.2 Man does not achieve union with God as a drop of water might find unity with the ocean. Man attains divine union by progressive reciprocal spiritual communion, by personality intercourse with the personal God, by increasingly attaining the divine nature through wholehearted and intelligent conformity to the divine will. Such a sublime relationship can exist only between personalities.

The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind. But the mind that really discerns God, hears the indwelling Adjuster, is the pure mind. "Without holiness no man may see the Lord." All such inner and spiritual communion is termed spiritual insight. Such religious experiences result from the impress made upon the mind of man by the combined operations of the Adjuster and the Spirit of Truth as they function amid and upon the ideas, ideals, insights, and spirit strivings of the evolving sons of God. 1104:06
Last edited by Bonita on Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:22 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:09 pm +0000

1:5.6 The natures of the Paradise Creator Sons do not encompass all the unqualified potentials of the universal absoluteness of the infinite nature of the First Great Source and Center, but the Universal Father is in every way divinely present in the Creator Sons. The Father and his Sons are one. These Paradise Sons of the order of Michael are perfect personalities, even the pattern for all local universe personality from that of the Bright and Morning Star down to the lowest human creature of progressing animal evolution.

32:3.6 The farther down the scale of life we go, the more difficult it becomes to locate, with the eye of faith, the invisible Father. The lower creatures—and sometimes even the higher personalities—find it difficult always to envisage the Universal Father in his Creator Sons. And so, pending the time of their spiritual exaltation, when perfection of development will enable them to see God in person, they grow weary in progression, entertain spiritual doubts, stumble into confusion, and thus isolate themselves from the progressive spiritual aims of their time and universe. In this way they lose the ability to see the Father when beholding the Creator Son. The surest safeguard for the creature throughout the long struggle to attain the Father, during this time when inherent conditions make such attainment impossible, is tenaciously to hold on to the truth-fact of the Father's presence in his Sons. Literally and figuratively, spiritually and personally, the Father and the Sons are one. It is a fact: He who has seen a Creator Son has seen the Father.

34:6.2 Although Divinity may be plural in manifestation, in human experience Deity is singular, always one. Neither is spiritual ministry plural in human experience. Regardless of plurality of origin, all spirit influences are one in function. Indeed they are one, being the spirit ministry of God the Sevenfold in and to the creatures of the grand universe; and as creatures grow in appreciation of, and receptivity for, this unifying ministry of the spirit, it becomes in their experience the ministry of God the Supreme.

169:4.2 Jesus never gave his apostles a systematic lesson concerning the personality and attributes of the Father in heaven. He never asked men to believe in his Father; he took it for granted they did. Jesus never belittled himself by offering arguments in proof of the reality of the Father. His teaching regarding the Father all centered in the declaration that he and the Father are one; that he who has seen the Son has seen the Father; that the Father, like the Son, knows all things; that only the Son really knows the Father, and he to whom the Son will reveal him; that he who knows the Son knows also the Father; and that the Father sent him into the world to reveal their combined natures and to show forth their conjoint work. He never made other pronouncements about his Father except to the woman of Samaria at Jacob's well, when he declared, "God is spirit."

184:4.6 These are the moments of the Master's greatest victories in all his long and eventful career as maker, upholder, and savior of a vast and far-flung universe. Having lived to the full a life of revealing God to man, Jesus is now engaged in making a new and unprecedented revelation of man to God. Jesus is now revealing to the worlds the final triumph over all fears of creature personality isolation. The Son of Man has finally achieved the realization of identity as the Son of God. Jesus does not hesitate to assert that he and the Father are one; and on the basis of the fact and truth of that supreme and supernal experience, he admonishes every kingdom believer to become one with him even as he and his Father are one. The living experience in the religion of Jesus thus becomes the sure and certain technique whereby the spiritually isolated and cosmically lonely mortals of earth are enabled to escape personality isolation, with all its consequences of fear and associated feelings of helplessness. In the fraternal realities of the kingdom of heaven the faith sons of God find final deliverance from the isolation of the self, both personal and planetary. The God-knowing believer increasingly experiences the ecstasy and grandeur of spiritual socialization on a universe scale—citizenship on high in association with the eternal realization of the divine destiny of perfection attainment.
Last edited by Bonita on Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:23 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:20 pm +0000

Hi Iris,

You and I are "debating" different points. Your points and the UB passages are not lost on me but apparently my points are lost on you. It doesn't matter. I think everyone gets the spiritual lineage of the Paradise Deities and the functions of the Local Universe Creator Sons.

They are still separate persons, where personality is present, and can be communicated with and to....separately.

I have nothing else to add to this, sorry


Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:24 pm +0000

117:5.8 And so it is with the spiritual circuits: Man utilizes these in his ascent through the universes, but he never possesses them as a part of his eternal personality. But these circuits of spiritual ministry, whether Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit, or superuniverse spirit presences, are receptive and reactive to the emerging values in ascending personality, and these values are faithfully transmitted through the Sevenfold to the Supreme.
Last edited by Bonita on Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:25 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.
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