Switch to full style
A place to discuss how faith experiences have changed your life.
Post a reply

Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:13 am +0000

Hi Tootsie! Good to see you. I think one will look at the book soon.

Thomas a person by the name of Matt Neibaur posted this today on UBRON. I was just wondering sinse you're a geologist if you might know WHEN (waht year) the age of these rocks were determined?
TUB stated there location and age by 1946 when there printing plates were locked in the printer's vault until it was published in 1955.

The article is from today. Thanks in advance Thomas. Peace Brother.

Researchers find oldest rocks on Earth

Canadian bedrock more than four billion years old may be the oldest known section of the Earth's early crust. Scientists at the Carnegie Institution used geochemical methods to obtain an age of 4.28 billion years for samples of the rock, making it 250 million years more ancient than any previously discovered rocks. The findings, which offer scientists clues to the earliest stages of our planet's evolution, are published in the September 26 issue of Science.

Message: 115048
From: matt neibaur
Subject: Oldest rocks on Earth
Date: Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 7:45 PM
Topic: General
Dear Ubron,

This is an interesting article on the ancient rocks found at the Hudson Bay. Compare to the UB below. This article states that 2001 was the date it was first recognized. Perhaps someone with a historical or geological background could give some insight.

Researchers find oldest rocks on Earth

The Nuvvuagittuq greenstone belt is an expanse of bedrock exposed on the eastern shore of Hudson Bay in northern Quebec and was first recognized in 2001 as a potential site of very old rocks. Samples of the Nuvvuagittuq rocks were collected by geologists from McGill University in Montreal and analyzed by Jonathan O'Neil, a PhD student at McGill, and Richard Carlson at the Carnegie Institution's Department of Terrestrial Magnetism.

By measuring minute variations in the isotopic composition of the rare earth elements neodymium and samarium in the rocks, O'Neil and Carlson determined that the rock samples range from 3.8 to 4.28 billion years old. The oldest dates came from rocks termed "faux amphibolite," which the researchers interpret to be ancient volcanic deposits. "There have been older dates from Western Australia for isolated resistant mineral grains called zircons," says Carlson, "but these are the oldest whole rocks found so far."

The oldest zircon dates are 4.36 billion years. Before this study, the oldest dated rocks were from a body of rock known as the Acasta Gneiss in the Northwest Territories, which are 4.03 billion years old. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and remnants of its early crust are extremely rare—most of it has been mashed and recycled into Earth's interior several times over by plate tectonics since the Earth formed.

The rocks are significant not only for their great age but also for their chemical composition, which resembles that of volcanic rocks in geologic settings where tectonic plates are crashing together. "This gives us an unprecedented glimpse of the processes that formed the early crust," says Carlson.

Oldest Rocks on Earth (Phys.org)

From the UB:
P.661 - §4 Shortly after Urantia was first recognized on the universe broadcasts to all Nebadon, it was accorded full universe status. Soon thereafter it was registered in the records of the minor and the major sector headquarters planets of the superuniverse; and before this age was over, Urantia had found entry on the planetary-life registry of Uversa.

P.661 - §5 This entire age was characterized by frequent and violent storms. The early crust of the earth was in a state of continual flux. Surface cooling alternated with immense lava flows. Nowhere can there be found on the surface of the world anything of this original planetary crust. It has all been mixed up too many times with extruding lavas of deep origins and admixed with subsequent deposits of the early world-wide ocean.

P.661 - §6 Nowhere on the surface of the world will there be found more of the modified remnants of these ancient preocean rocks than in northeastern Canada around Hudson Bay. This extensive granite elevation is composed of stone belonging to the preoceanic ages. These rock layers have been heated, bent, twisted, upcrumpled, and again and again have they passed through these distorting metamorphic experiences.
Matt N.

Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:02 pm +0000

Hi Joer...Peace be with you my Brother...Hi Thomas...and also with you...

VERY interesting stuff and perfect timing...what a find...


A crisis of faith... or belief

Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:16 am +0000

Hello again to all!

Thanks for the many fine comments. I do notice a "divide" or bipolar variance in the ideas presented. On the one hand a willingness to "let go" of specific beliefs based on factual information from the UB and concentrate on the fundamental truths. On the other is the compulsion to compile lists of congruencies between UB and conventional science in the hope/belief that science will eventually "catch up" and our book will be shown to be inerrant after all.

I guess I am supporting the former as I am afraid of the latter. By "afraid" I mean that I fear the power of ideas that offer something to the ego. I look around the world and even my community and I see people who hold some (of what seem to me) very wacky beliefs, including all that "washed in the blood" stuff as well as crystals, pyramids, earth grids, you name it. In each and every case there is some powerful payoff for holding a belief... whether it's eternal life or membership in an exclusive club that's "in the know". I recognize that the UB offers a very attractive payoff... that is... I WANT the ascension plan to be real. I WANT to be "special" by being an agondonter. I WANT for the universe and Jesus to be watching our little planet in some special way. And because I want it... I am suspicious of it.

In the end I think I am NOT an agondonter because I cannot believe without seeing. I AM the Doubting Thomas that wants proof. For some years I allowed myself to believe things that my mind rebelled at BECAUSE I WANTED THE PAYOFF and I am shocked to recall how twisted became my mental gymnastis as I avoided facing the dichotomy.

In my earthly geology work I am involved with mineral exploration. It is amazing to see how much faith and belief is involved in the search for valuable minerals! It is a rough business, where misinterpretations, falsehoods, and outright lies must be carefully sifted to reveal what is true. It is axiomatic that no matter how strongly you WANT the mineral to be where you believe it to be... it's either there or not. Your will cannot change that! People that want to invest in mining stocks should think about this. Only the TRUTH matters. In exploration when it comes down to the nitty gritty we drill... we take core samples to examine directly and we find out whether our concept was right or wrong.

In the world of religion there is much sifting yet to be done. It's clear to me now that the science of the UB, while entertaining as a concept frame, cannot be relied on for drawing any sort of real conclusions. Accepting a belief system is like buying a stock... you are investing of yourself in hopes of a payoff later. Again, only the TRUTH matters. It looks to me like the drill results are a bit weaker than hoped-for.

Be well!


Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:28 pm +0000

Hi Thomas. Thanks for replying. Sorry about my focus on the science stuff, I thought that was you interest. But I see your after the REAL GOOD STUFF. The Spiritual Truths. Excellent Choice.

Thomas Wrote:
On the other is the compulsion to compile lists of congruencies between UB and conventional science in the hope/belief that science will eventually "catch up" and our book will be shown to be inerrant after all.

Actually I don’t expect that (TUB shown to be inerrant) at all. It even said itself that in regard to science it couldn’t be. So there would no reason to expect it to be. BUT I do find it interesting that over time SO MANY of it’s scientific statements have been born out. The Rocks in Hudson Bay being the latest. Precisely predicted. That’s why I was trying to investigate to see if that is the case or has it been known since before 1946?

But you’re right this curiosity stuff with Science in nothing when compared to the truths of Salvation expressed in TUB.

The problem seems to be doubt. And I read somewhere in TUB that doubt was the biggest threat to Faith. But I couldn’t find the excerpt. But I found these Thomas. Do any of them touch on anything you are going through in terms of the strength of your Faith?

P.1017 - §10 2. You shall not doubt that faith is the only requirement for eternal salvation.

P.1125 - §2 Belief may not be able to resist doubt and withstand fear, but faith is always triumphant over doubting, for faith is both positive and living.

P.1601 - §3 And if you are the sons of God, then have you been born of the spirit of God; and whosoever has been born of the spirit has in himself the power to overcome all doubt, and this is the victory that overcomes all uncertainty, even your faith.

P.1745 - §1 And there can be no peace in the heart or progress in the mind unless you fall wholeheartedly in love with truth, the ideals of eternal realities. The issues of life and death are being set before you--the sinful pleasures of time against the righteous realities of eternity. Even now you should begin to find deliverance from the bondage of fear and doubt as you enter upon the living of the new life of faith and hope. And when the feelings of service for your fellow men arise within your soul, do not stifle them; when the emotions of love for your neighbor well up within your heart, give expression to such urges of affection in intelligent ministry to the real needs of your fellows."

Even Peter, who loved Jesus dearly and knew him personally had to deal with doubt.

P.2037 - §4 All this day Peter characteristically vacillated emotionally between faith and doubt concerning the Master's resurrection. Peter could not get away from the sight of the grave cloths resting there in the tomb as if the body of Jesus had just evaporated from within. "But," reasoned Peter, "if he has risen and can show himself to the women, why does he not show himself to us, his apostles?"

God's Peace and Faith be with you Thomas! :-)

Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:39 am +0000

Hi Joer:

The first quote that you mentioned is a good example of my problem:

P.1017 - §10 2. You shall not doubt that faith is the only requirement for eternal salvation.

Note the phrasing as a commandment, as in "thou shalt not". We are being asked or commanded to believe something difficult in exchange for the big payoff... the biggest of them all. As I mentioned with regard to mineral exploration... there are LOTS of phony things out there and they have to be sifted very carefully. When any promoter that comes to me with a piece of dirt in Nevada and says "My friend, trust me, have no doubt this is very rich with gold, you must believe this or you will not find it." I run screaming. The payoff is the problem, it's too psychologically compelling to distort the mind in order to obtain the payoff. We humans are masters at that sort of self-deception. That's why con artists proliferate so much... so many people looking for a free ride.

Be well!


Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:53 am +0000

The Con can work both ways ...you can con your self right out of faith and in to a materialistic humanism and loose all truth just to keep your self from dealing with the tough questions.

and by the way ...Christ said ( By Faith Alone ) remember
I have been told ..Just Keep It Simple.

We have the capacity to over think and complicate a thing to death.

So I say to you ... Keep it simple and have faith

Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:09 am +0000

This is a well-said power quote here by JB:

The Con can work both ways ...you can con your self right out of faith and in to a materialistic humanism and lose all truth just to keep your self from dealing with the tough questions.
Last edited by stacey jackson on Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:51 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:34 am +0000

Wow I hear you Stacey. His situation is very sad and pitiable indeed. Hopefully he will be found to have "the tinyist flicker of faith" remaining in his heart and will be advanced to the mansion worlds where he will have a real opportunity to learn the truth and make a decision.

Situations like this persist only because our planet is a rebellion world. Although not impossible, it's much more difficult to deny God and a friendly supporting universe on a normal world where you have a visible, immortal Planetary Prince Staff, an Adam and Eve Material Son duo, ect...present and functioning.

Our present situation could and would be enormously alleviated, in my opinion, if The Urantia Book were openly disseminated sooner rather than later. I can only imagine all of the spiritual longings and sufferings that could be eliminated if only the 5th ER could be the sooner presented to all of these people.

Last edited by Vann on Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:58 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:54 am +0000


I am 100 % for the sooner rather than later. I've heard the argument that the world is not ready for the UB, but it seems to me that the world is more than ready--completely desperate in fact, for the UB.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:59 am +0000

Hey Stacey ...... YOU GO GIRL !!!!!

Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:29 pm +0000

J. Barry wrote:The Con can work both ways ...you can con your self right out of faith and in to a materialistic humanism and loose all truth just to keep your self from dealing with the tough questions. So I say to you ... Keep it simple and have faith
Hi J.B.: So... how do you protect yourself from the one con while avoiding falling into the other? The UB mentions a 'truth response' in the human soul that responds to truth and is a foundation of faith. Yet if you look around you see millions of people believing the most bizarre things. Obviously this 'truth response' is weak or undeveloped in most people. Is it not hypocritical of UB believers to believe that we have found the truth while everybody else is wallowing in falsehood? Doesn't this attitude culminate in our regarding ourselves as somehow special... a chosen people who have all the answers? Does this not seem dangerous to anybody besides me?

For myself I see the UB concept of TBG as the guiding light... TRUTH, BEAUTY, GOODNESS. You measure every idea, every concept, every situation, ever plan... against those orthogonal standards. The ones that measure high in every regard are those which are real, which have 'volume' in spirit space. If an idea fails in even one of them, then it must be demoted to lower status.


Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:52 pm +0000

The "truth response" is not a normal - ingrained thought train or concept in the typical human because this is a rebellion world that is not and has not been evolving along God's intended plan for the last some 250,000 years. UB reader-believers are beginning to incorporate this concept into their thinking...because they have The Urantia Book and have learned these things there. Knowledge is not automatic. Things have to be learned.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:27 pm +0000

I think ... the UB is an epochal revelation. It deserves special status. That does not mean that its readers are "chosen people" because all of us humans are flawed, imperfect, fallible and ordinary mortals from lots of different backgrounds, with lots of different belief systems amalgamated within our consciousness, and we disagree on many things, and we certainly do not have all the answers. Nor does the UB have all the answers and it is gracious enough to say so! The UB itself does not exclude other religions or religionists. In fact, it goes to great lengths to express the value of evolving religions, as well as noble past efforts and exciting future opportunities of the evolving races.

There is truth in all the religions, value in all the cultures, and there is a plethora of beauty and goodness in the beliefs and worship practices of millions of Urantians -- whether they have ever heard of this Book or not. It is only when one gets uppity and snooty and thinks their religion is superior to others' that we run into trouble. This is a point made in Paper 134, on sovereignty, given at Urmia, under Cymboyton. The good news is that we are not a religion.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:00 pm +0000

Thanks for bringing in some balance, Gerdean. I believe that sometimes we can get so full of enthusiasm for the gift that we forget how to share it.

An example:
Picked up my mother on Saturday morning to take her to get groceries for the week, our usual routine. I had grabbed my copy of the UB on my way out the door and had it on the passenger seat. Before I pulled up to the retirement home, I put it on the back seat and tossed a sweatshirt over it.
Why? Because my mother is a life-long Catholic who has struggled with and lived by her beliefs. She has walked the walk, more importantly, she has lived her truth, as she has found it. I have no right to introduce a "better way" to this 85 year old woman, who loves and trusts this Christ.

Isn't it the experiences that count? that teach us? the search that draws us forward?

If there is no doubt, there is no need to search.


Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:16 pm +0000

Yes, Jo. "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it."

It doesn't take long to realize whether our family and friends or the stranger next to us on the bus is open to talk about spiritual matters and whether they are amenable to enlarging their perspective.

One of the benefits of having been indoctrinated into organized religion through Jehovah's Witnesses is having been on both sides of the door when it comes to proselytizing beliefs. It is one thing to want to share what we believe and what we are spiritually excited about, but it is another thing completely to claim it is the one true religion. The minute that happens, no matter how revelatory it is, one is stepping on the toes of the other. Such methods run the risk of forever turning folks off from ever looking. We simply must have tact and tolerance.

My mom long ago curled her upper lip at my book, as she has curled her upper lip at all things spiritual. She refers to my friends as "Ukranians" or sometimes "Tarantulas" just to indicate her disdain, even though she hasn't got a clue of the UB's teachings. I fretted about her disrespect for my theology for a long time. but not as long as I fretted about the survival of her soul. I finally realized that it is none of my business. My task is not to force-feed her or anybody else my articles of religion; it is to love her, as Jesus loves us. And he has never turned me away because of my ignorance, nor chided me for being reticent, nor insisted I adopt beliefs that are foreign to my nature and/or anathema to my free will.

I think it's our faith that counts, and not our beliefs anyway.
Post a reply