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katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
I think a first step is developing an honest and effective review and debate procedure for all major governmental decisions.


Isn't that what regular order in Congress is supposed to achieve? Public debates on the floor followed by voting from our representatives? Isn't that the purpose of C-span? To make these events public? I'm the only person I know who watches that, the nerd that I am, or is it geek?

But more to your point, who reviews the honesty of the public debate? Usually it's the press and occasionally think tanks, but they are completely polarized at this period in time and therefore untrustworthy in my opinion. So it's the public's responsibility to pay attention to these things and decide what is honest and what is fiction. Opinion polls are meant to reflect the public's thinking, but they fail too because they are so easily manipulated. I still think that the truth always wins because it can be acted out. Politicians, and their minions, who peddle in untruth will eventually have to face its unreality. There is a cost.


Personally I don't think we can expect anything in the way of exemplary behavior from the current crop of politicians... I can't believe that any politician that gains national prominence is "innocent". I am supporting one US presidential candidate only because she is taking a very public stand against some nasty stuff and some apparently nasty people, and I like to think that she saw enough to convince her that such things need to be exposed. That in itself is a major milestone, somebody actually bucking the status quo, rocking the boat and calling a spade a spade. I truly believe that this is the beginning of a new mindset regarding politics and public administration.


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In the US and elsewhere, our system is flawed such that only crooks and liars are elected into office. Or even have a desire for the power that being in elected office brings. Ordinary people want nothing to do with participating in politics. A necessary, but not sufficient step for mitigating its many flaws is to eliminate the influence of money from politics. Much easier said than done, but, as Pethuel mentions, there are pockets of active advocates for taking steps in that direction.

As to the media, they are simply a reflection of our society's values. They say what the masses want to hear; what sells; what gets those clicks online. They are like amoebae, moving toward heat. It has ever and always been so; nothing new in that these days.


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katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
I think a first step is developing an honest and effective review and debate procedure for all major governmental decisions.


Isn't that what regular order in Congress is supposed to achieve? Public debates on the floor followed by voting from our representatives? Isn't that the purpose of C-span? To make these events public? I'm the only person I know who watches that, the nerd that I am, or is it geek?

But more to your point, who reviews the honesty of the public debate? Usually it's the press and occasionally think tanks, but they are completely polarized at this period in time and therefore untrustworthy in my opinion. So it's the public's responsibility to pay attention to these things and decide what is honest and what is fiction. Opinion polls are meant to reflect the public's thinking, but they fail too because they are so easily manipulated. I still think that the truth always wins because it can be acted out. Politicians, and their minions, who peddle in untruth will eventually have to face its unreality. There is a cost.


From what I have observed, the entire system has been co-opted, by whom and for whom I can't say. More than one person has pointed out that our "news feed" is actually more like "information ration". All we know about the current world around us is what is fed to us via digital platforms. There are folks who totally embrace this "reality" and there are folks on the other extreme that believe nothing from mainstream media, or corporate media as it is sometimes called. Opinion polls have proven themselves unreliable as they are easily manipulated, yet a large portion of the population unquestioningly gobbles up the poll results as an undeniable truth. Are they manipulating public opinion? Of course they are! But who is it and why are they doing it?

We have the assurance from the Papers that the Most Highs will intervene in a crisis. Does anyone know where that is stated in the Papers?


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114:4.2 (1253.5) There are certain groups of planetary problems which are still under the control of the Most Highs of Edentia, jurisdiction over them having been seized at the time of the Lucifer rebellion. Authority in these matters is exercised by a Vorondadek Son, the Norlatiadek observer, who maintains very close advisory relations with the planetary supervisors. The race commissioners are very active on Urantia, and their various group chiefs are informally attached to the resident Vorondadek observer, who acts as their advisory director.

114:4.3 (1253.6) In a crisis the actual and sovereign head of the government, excepting in certain purely spiritual matters, would be this Vorondadek Son of Edentia now on observation duty. (In these exclusively spiritual problems and in certain purely personal matters, the supreme authority seems to be vested in the commanding archangel attached to the divisional headquarters of that order which was recently established on Urantia.)

114:4.4 (1253.7) A Most High observer is empowered, at his discretion, to seize the planetary government in times of grave planetary crises, and it is of record that this has happened thirty-three times in the history of Urantia. At such times the Most High observer functions as the Most High regent, exercising unquestioned authority over all ministers and administrators resident on the planet excepting only the divisional organization of the archangels.

114:4.5 (1253.8) Vorondadek regencies are not peculiar to rebellion-isolated planets, for the Most Highs may intervene at any time in the affairs of the inhabited worlds, interposing the superior wisdom of the constellation rulers in the affairs of the kingdoms of men.

:idea: :smile:


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pethuel wrote:
From what I have observed, the entire system has been co-opted, by whom and for whom I can't say. More than one person has pointed out that our "news feed" is actually more like "information ration". All we know about the current world around us is what is fed to us via digital platforms. There are folks who totally embrace this "reality" and there are folks on the other extreme that believe nothing from mainstream media, or corporate media as it is sometimes called. Opinion polls have proven themselves unreliable as they are easily manipulated, yet a large portion of the population unquestioningly gobbles up the poll results as an undeniable truth. Are they manipulating public opinion? Of course they are! But who is it and why are they doing it?

We have the assurance from the Papers that the Most Highs will intervene in a crisis. Does anyone know where that is stated in the Papers?


It's my opinion that the love of power is an addiction that destroys men's souls, and they will do anything to maintain it including manipulation, a form of control. It's a sickness. There's a whole lot of hoopla over toxic masculinity, but I think power in the hands of any gender has potential for the greatest toxicity of all.

Everyone loves the notion that the Most Highs rule in the kingdom of men, but their rule is stepped down many times through different agencies with the bulk of their influence coming from the angels. (1250.1) 114:0.1 That being so, a lot hinges on people making their psychic/cosmic circles. I don't think the Most Highs directly intervene in manmade crises, but rather impose their higher wisdom through their agencies which then affect the minds, hearts and souls of men. That means to me that in order for change to occur, people must be tuned in on some level, otherwise the Most Highs would just be performing magic feats. Am I the only one who thinks this?


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Thanks FanofVan!

And yes Katroofjebus. it is amazing how some people covet power, and it appears to be an insatiable addiction driving people to extraordinary acts of cruelty and inhuman behavior. Yet some of these types of people, in spite of their personal weaknesses, have been instruments of global change!?!


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pethuel wrote:
And yes Katroofjebus. it is amazing how some people covet power, and it appears to be an insatiable addiction driving people to extraordinary acts of cruelty and inhuman behavior. Yet some of these types of people, in spite of their personal weaknesses, have been instruments of global change!?!


Maybe that's how the Most Highs rule in the kingdom of men.


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pethuel wrote:
Maybe that's how the Most Highs rule in the kingdom of men.


There's a thought


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I think you cited the wrong author of the quote pethuel. It's funny but that's the third time in two days that I've either been cited for something I never wrote, or denied authorship for something I did write. It's very strange. Nevertheless, I'm glad you like it. Thanks.


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katroofjebus wrote:
It's my opinion that the love of power is an addiction that destroys men's souls, and they will do anything to maintain it including manipulation, a form of control. It's a sickness. There's a whole lot of hoopla over toxic masculinity, but I think power in the hands of any gender has potential for the greatest toxicity of all.


So....you didn't say this???? :roll:

pethuel wrote:
Thanks FanofVan!

And yes Katroofjebus. it is amazing how some people covet power, and it appears to be an insatiable addiction driving people to extraordinary acts of cruelty and inhuman behavior. Yet some of these types of people, in spite of their personal weaknesses, have been instruments of global change!?!


katroofjebus wrote:
I think you cited the wrong author of the quote pethuel. It's funny but that's the third time in two days that I've either been cited for something I never wrote, or denied authorship for something I did write. It's very strange. Nevertheless, I'm glad you like it. Thanks.


"Strange" indeed.... oh dear.


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:53 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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katroofjebus wrote:
I think you cited the wrong author of the quote pethuel. It's funny but that's the third time in two days that I've either been cited for something I never wrote, or denied authorship for something I did write. It's very strange. Nevertheless, I'm glad you like it. Thanks.


I'm sorry about that, I wasn't actually quoting you I was answering a question. I have trouble when I post from my mobile and I think some of my misplaced fingertips are to blame for any confusion, but I don't think there is a conspiracy to misquote you or anything, on this end it was just a loose nut behind the wheel.

My intention was to agree with you and perhaps my addition of the word "insatiable" didn't jive with what you had posted. At any rate, I apologize for any consternation this may have caused.


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pethuel wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:
I think you cited the wrong author of the quote pethuel. It's funny but that's the third time in two days that I've either been cited for something I never wrote, or denied authorship for something I did write. It's very strange. Nevertheless, I'm glad you like it. Thanks.


I'm sorry about that, I wasn't actually quoting you I was answering a question. I have trouble when I post from my mobile and I think some of my misplaced fingertips are to blame for any confusion, but I don't think there is a conspiracy to misquote you or anything, on this end it was just a loose nut behind the wheel.

My intention was to agree with you and perhaps my addition of the word "insatiable" didn't jive with what you had posted. At any rate, I apologize for any consternation this may have caused.


Sorry to be so sensitive about it. I certainly understand. Thanks so much.


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Thanks again FanofVAn for the quotes from Paper 114, those quotes opened the door for a more complete study of Paper 114 and there I found answers to many questions, or good indications of where to look for answers.


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You are welcome. I find 114 to be an exquisite rebuttal to those doubting and fearful souls who come to the UB with false anxieties about the status of the rebellion or of Urantia. Some of whom are here with us and express concerns about our world being in so called isolation and disconnected from the broadcast networks.

We are getting extreme and personalized attention and ministry by a most capable and experienced and empathetic and powerful set of personalities on this Shrine of Nebadon.

Such assurance of affectionate administration and leadership we are given. Some people simply ignore and reject this central truth of the UB....Fear Not! For there is nothing to fear in this friendly universe!


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I've just finished paper 71 so now I'll contribute. I'm going to risk raising points already made because these are my raw thoughts.

I feel paper 70 compliments paper 71 very well in the sense that while the former describes the necessary evolutionary development of government, the latter describes the ideal potential. It was something of a shock reading how slavery and violence of war are necessary steps in developing experienced perfection, but then I am reassured that anyone with a genuine desire to know the Universal Father will obtain salvation despite their shortcomings.

As for the politics of paper 71, I would say that the UB from reading it advocated for a classically liberal government. The emphasis on free trade and private property would not go well with the militant left. When I say militant left, I'm imagining the man in the factory overalls holding a picket sign while throwing stones at the police and singing 'The Internationale' often seen in communist propaganda illustrations. I don't mean ALL people who hold center-left political persuasions.

It's interesting that while I do in fact hold social democratic political views (I'm of the view that the state has a paternal but not overbearing role to play in the lives of the people especially when it comes to environmental issues), the UB might very well be the book that can change my mind! The arguments are very well presented and I read that it is going to require a shift in the minds of the people for them to become more selfless in the future to achieve the ideal and not the government itself making the arguments or worse imposing the ideal. This shift in the minds of the people is going to be through a spiritual realization. This will solve the problems of inequality in the future.

I just have one question though: why is it that some of us have glimpses of the ideal society and long for that day to come while others are trapped in the past? I would NEVER be so self righteous as to say I'm more evolved than somebody else. For example: the common citizen of Uganda still believes that homosexuals should be locked up in prison cells, while most of us here know better. Why is that?

Edit: I suppose it comes down to upbringing in society and access to information. But I still wonder why some of us strive to self improve while others do not.


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