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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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I don't feel insulted, just surprised! But it's okay, I'll take the rebuke to heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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maryjo606 wrote:
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katroofjebus wrote:
gizmo wrote:
you don't do the work of verifying your sources, and reading the UB with a clear and open mind.


I'm sorry, but I see this as a direct attack. The accusation of "YOU" lacking a clear and open mind is extremely insulting. For the record, I think it should be stricken.

Plus, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with the topic.


Again, this was an observation directed to a specific poster, and should be addressed by them, not a second party. This seems like an observation that could be quickly addressed and put to rest. I would think that we are all capable of defending ourselves when we are sincerely participating in the Forum, are we not?

Your insistence on initiating and pursuing this detour is not helping matters, nor helping to get the discussion back on track.

MaryJo




gizmo wrote:
I don't feel insulted, just surprised! But it's okay, I'll take the rebuke to heart.


The problem is that, as MaryJo points out, it was a most unrighteous and uncalled for and inaccurate accusation (rather than a rebuke). Your reply is most gracious. However, I would encourage you to ignore Bonita's gatekeeping criticisms protecting and pandering to those here who defy and contradict the UB. Your opinion was on point and accurate and helpful and was not insulting by any definition.

As a newer poster here, but a seasoned reader of the UB, your voice and perspective are as welcome and relevant as any other's. Do not be cowed or silenced by the loudness and rudeness and arrogance of others here.


Don't be too surprised or disappointed if Bonita decides to block your posts too....it's her go-to approach to avoid dealing with anything real. Oh.....apologies, I'm talking about someone without talking directly to them....but since they block me, I can't speak directly to them. A conundrum. Sigh....Oh well..... :roll:

What was the topic again?


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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katroofjebus wrote:
The "seed of destruction" concept appears twice in the Revelation. I think we are all familiar with this reference to sin:

(611.7) 53:9.8 But for ages the seven prison worlds of spiritual darkness in Satania have constituted a solemn warning to all Nebadon, eloquently and effectively proclaiming the great truth "that the way of the transgressor is hard"; "that within every sin is concealed the seed of its own destruction"; that "the wages of sin is death."

But I was surprised to find this reference as well:

(1457.2) 132:1.3 Unless the moral insight and the spiritual attainment of mankind are proportionately augmented, the unlimited advancement of a purely materialistic culture may eventually become a menace to civilization. A purely materialistic science harbors within itself the potential seed of the destruction of all scientific striving, for this very attitude presages the ultimate collapse of a civilization which has abandoned its sense of moral values and has repudiated its spiritual goal of attainment.

It seems ominous to me. What exactly is a purely materialistic science and how does it inevitably lead to destruction of ALL scientific striving and the collapse of civilization? Is there a way to recognize this phenomenon in today's world, if it is indeed happening? It is written that at the time of the writing of the Revelation the higher scientific minds were not wholly materialistic. Is this still true today?

(2076.9) 195:6.4 At the time of this writing the worst of the materialistic age is over; the day of a better understanding is already beginning to dawn. The higher minds of the scientific world are no longer wholly materialistic in their philosophy, but the rank and file of the people still lean in that direction as a result of former teachings. But this age of physical realism is only a passing episode in man's life on earth. Modern science has left true religion — the teachings of Jesus as translated in the lives of his believers — untouched. All science has done is to destroy the childlike illusions of the misinterpretations of life.


Oh yeah...the topic!!!

I completely disagree with the "ominous" conclusion of Bonita. The quote in question is obviously projecting a purely hypothetical situation - probably an impossible hypothetical...a reduction of the ridiculous or the extension of a fallacy to its ultimate potential limits.

It is not a warning really. It's a form of oxymoron. A purely materialistic science will eventually fail. Science and faith seek the same reality and the same source of reality. Science without faith seeks the unreal and is unreal itself. Like sin, anything that is unreal and irrelevant to reality contains the seeds of its own ultimate destruction - it is destroyed by its irrelevancy and unreality.

Since reality is not simply mechanistic or materialistic, then anything, including science, which is merely mechanistic or materialistic is destined for irrelevancy and self annhilation as being unreal...unrelated to reality.

The second quote above should have relieved any and all of Bonita's or anyone else's anxiety and fear. Over 5 and a half billion souls on Urantia claim belief in God, heaven, angels, and human afterlife!! The quote reassures us that on our world religion and spirituality has plenty of cultural influence and science has merely, and positively, "destroy(ed) the childlike illusions of the misinterpretations of life."

Human science has primarily destroyed superstition and delivered civilization to its current progressive state of specialization and globalization and digitalization and technology but has not destroyed the spirituality of humanity. Consider the timing for the ministry of the Spirit of Truth many centuries before modern science began its formative understandings of material reality.

The apparent conflict between creationism and mechanistic accident is temporary and not general...even among scientists. Science and religion will find reunification eventually. The rejection of evolutionary progress as God's method for creationism by some religionists and the rejection of plan, purpose, method, and management of the evolutionary process are both narrow minded and short sighted examples of ignorance and prejudice which defies reality and the obvious evidence available.

I cannot conceive that science can possibly convince humanity that there is no God and reality is an accident and purely mechanical. Who believes this lie? Less than one person in five. And they are not too sure either. Science is destined to discover reality and to abandon accidental mechanization.

Ominous??? Not getting that at all from the quotes provided. Creationism will soon be gaining much scientific evidence and theory and confirmation as materialistic science fails to explain the reality it so relentlessly pursues!!! The more reality discovered, the more mechanization will fail to explain it. Thusly does mechanistic science carry the seeds of its own destruction.

For Urantia….that destruction of materialistic science will be due to the faith of humanity by the ministry of the Spirit of Truth and the God Fragments to each soul and mortal mind in conjunction, I think, with this Epochal Revelation describing reality and history, and because the scientific method itself demands that science and the scientific method conforms to reality itself.

Human science is not controlled by any authority or institution that can long impose preferred fictions and hoaxes upon humanity. The integrity of the method will protect us from the ultimate collapse of science based on fiction.

Or so I understand the text to teach.....

8) Bradly


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Keep going, Brad; you're right.

What is being considered "ominous" from Bonita's interpretation, I believe what she considers ominous is the "potential destruction" contained within the materialistic science-view. However, my interpretation is not as ominous. We should recognise facts, even facts that are posited from materialism; sometimes facts are important and cannot be ignored in the rational decision-making process. But we can balance the theories of potential destruction, with the working theories and knowledge of Urantia. When someone offers a combative solution, can you offer ways to make those solutions work under a peaceable administration? Can you recognise the final results of the human intention, their demands, in order to know what is wise, and what would be regarded as sinful?

The idea of "seed" being categorized as "of destruction" is of and in itself, a counter-intuitive phrase. There is a sense of seeds, every seed, having the potential within itself to multiply, so how could something so natural be "of a destructive nature"? But the authors put that in quotations, as a citation from the earlier religious history of mankind, separating the words from the personal view. Seeds are being used symbolically as thoughts, "thoughts that one knows are sinful", and therefore "seeds of destruction" are ideas that inherently would not lead to increase or progress in the grand universe. And a person should be intelligent enough to recognise if a thought is sinful, and to be able to "put it down", at least to prune the branches of one's individual mind, "to cut away the branch of sinful human behaviour, so that the vine which nourishes the human's thoughts may only nourish that which is good". Cultivate the patterns that yield greater abundance, but you must also courageously allow God to cut away the mind-patterns that you once used, that actually ended up hurting the world and your own progress of becoming the finalitor. And for society, we have to contend with materialism, and at least offer better solutions where people learn to provide for their own households.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
We should recognise facts, even facts that are posited from materialism; sometimes facts are important and cannot be ignored in the rational decision-making process.


I think facts are essential building blocks of all thought, but the meaning of facts is what matters. Applying the wrong meaning and making decisions based upon those wrong meanings produces chaos, and chaos is not sustainable. Chaos is disorganized, unstable and unspiritual; it will die.

(135.11) 12:6.1 Stability is wholly and always proportional to divinity.

(241:1) 21:5.4 The elevation of a sevenfold bestowal Son to the unquestioned sovereignty of his universe means the beginning of the end of agelong uncertainty and relative confusion. Subsequent to this event, that which cannot be sometime spiritualized will eventually be disorganized; that which cannot be sometime co-ordinated with cosmic reality will eventually be destroyed. When the provisions of endless mercy and nameless patience have been exhausted in an effort to win the loyalty and devotion of the will creatures of the realms, justice and righteousness will prevail. That which mercy cannot rehabilitate justice will eventually annihilate.


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