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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Makalu wrote:
i think in general it's saying the civilization can collapse but not science, philosophy or religion because those are innate reality responses.


Good point.

Makalu wrote:
maybe the transhumanists would be the latest attempt.


Yeah, thank God for ethics, something a machine cannot do even with the most intricate algorithms.

(2079.9) 195:7.14 Machines are never intellectual, emotional, aesthetic, ethical, moral, or spiritual.

Makalu wrote:
they have new technology they dont understand these days lol (a computer is NOT a brain and a brain is not a mind idjit).


That's funny as hell. Thanks for the laugh.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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katroofjebus wrote:
(1220.2) 111:4.3 The advances of true civilization are all born in this inner world of mankind. It is only the inner life that is truly creative. Civilization can hardly progress when the majority of the youth of any generation devote their interests and energies to the materialistic pursuits of the sensory or outer world.

If what you say is true, then scientific striving must include the creativity of the inner world which includes spiritual goals. Then a purely materialistic science is one with a purely materialistic goal? Does the "destruction of all scientific striving" mean the end of all scientific ambition, and the death of science leads to the death of civilization. It seems to mean that civilization is dependent upon scientific striving. And what about morals? Is a purely materialistic science also immoral? I guess it would have to be if it leads to destruction.

It all seems to point to the importance of true science, whatever that may be. I think it might be one motivated by ideals. But what really motivates a scientist? For me it's the curiosity of how things work, cause and effect, which I think is built into our genome. Is the pursuit of this kind of knowledge also materialistic if it has no "ideal" goal other than the simple desire to understand? Admittedly it's an adjutant urge, but I can't see how it can lead to destruction. Does a scientist need to know why he strives, or can he just strive to know for the sake of knowing? Is that materialistic?


I don't believe striving to know is at all a materialistic motivation. It is one of those things we do as we strive for perfection. My interpretation of what the revelators mean by "destruction of all scientific striving" is that there are some who remove certain realms of information or truth from their domain of understanding phenomena. Their efforts cannot lead to understanding real causes then. They have chosen to no longer strive for true understanding. That, apparently to the revelators, defines what science must do.

There is a very entertaining and informative popular book written by a scientist recently that, in one country, goes by the title "The Science Delusion". It delves deeply into exactly this issue that is probably polarizing the community.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Good one Riktare!!

The UB clearly teaches that mind, all mind, has an inherent feature and function - the quest to know and understand. Curiosity is innate and built into our very being. Indeed, the mind will create metaphysical and superstitious explanations for both cause and effect it does not understand to better understand it. We will invent false and fictional explanations...striving to know for the sake of knowing is a gift of the Spirit...not the brain!!!

The brain is materialistic....not the mind. We may poison the mind and pollute the mind and direct the mind to materialism and mechanisms but that is a function of personal choice and freewill....not a function of mind.

Very good point about self-elimination of parameters and information and sources...closing the mind to potential and possibility to limit ones spectrum of consideration to mechanistic options only...Godless science makes this choice which destroys even the potential for ultimate success in understanding and explaining universe reality. Just like religionists who eliminate science and evolution from their metaphysical constructs of reality....the blind opposing the blinder and both in the pit having a blind fight, throwing might blows which whistle in the wind and can never land for the opposition is as empty and formless as the entrenched prejudice on either or both sides of that pointless debate!!! Hahahaha.....

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Riktare wrote:
I don't believe striving to know is at all a materialistic motivation. It is one of those things we do as we strive for perfection.


I agree with that. Curiosity was given to us for a reason, in fact the urge hangs in there all the way to Havona. I think it's at the root of discovery, without which life would be monotonous, maybe even seem to border on mechanistic.

(159.6) 14:5.10 Love of adventure, curiosity, and dread of monotony — these traits inherent in evolving human nature — were not put there just to aggravate and annoy you during your short sojourn on earth, but rather to suggest to you that death is only the beginning of an endless career of adventure, an everlasting life of anticipation, an eternal voyage of discovery.

(159.3) 14:5.7 Not until you traverse the last of the Havona circuits and visit the last of the Havona worlds, will the tonic of adventure and the stimulus of curiosity disappear from your career. And then will the urge, the forward impulse of eternity, replace its forerunner, the adventure lure of time.

Riktare wrote:
My interpretation of what the revelators mean by "destruction of all scientific striving" is that there are some who remove certain realms of information or truth from their domain of understanding phenomena. Their efforts cannot lead to understanding real causes then. They have chosen to no longer strive for true understanding. That, apparently to the revelators, defines what science must do.


Are you saying that true science must strive to discover the interrelationship between facts, philosophy and truth? I agree with that. I think it's about those three reality intuitions of the cosmic mind.

(192.6) 16:6.10 These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.

Riktare wrote:
There is a very entertaining and informative popular book written by a scientist recently that, in one country, goes by the title "The Science Delusion". It delves deeply into exactly this issue that is probably polarizing the community.


I just read a review of the book and it sounds like I might have to get it. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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see if i can string together some quotes/ideas for another way it might work...first a bit on science in general:

Quote:
103:9.8 (1141.6) Science (knowledge) is founded on the inherent (adjutant spirit) assumption that reason is valid, that the universe can be comprehended.


...can be known. but...

Quote:
102:1.3 (1119.2) ....The more of science you know, the less sure you can be;


(because you move farther from laws and mechanisms and uniformities and into theories and anomalies and approximations)

then looking at scientific striving/initiative and mechanists:

Quote:
195:6.16 (2078.2) Freedom or initiative in any realm of existence is directly proportional to the degree of spiritual influence and cosmic-mind control; that is, in human experience, the degree of the actuality of doing “the Father’s will.” And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you.


Quote:
195:6.3 (2076.8) The pursuit of mere knowledge, without the attendant interpretation of wisdom and the spiritual insight of religious experience, eventually leads to pessimism and human despair. A little knowledge is truly disconcerting.


Quote:
195:7.19 (2080.4) Mechanists—humanists—tend to drift with the material currents. Idealists and spiritists dare to use their oars with intelligence and vigor in order to modify the apparently purely material course of the energy streams.


now here's the reality the mechanist is faced with:

Quote:
195:7.22 (2080.7) The universe is not like the laws, mechanisms, and the uniformities which the scientist discovers, and which he comes to regard as science, but rather like the curious, thinking, choosing, creative, combining, and discriminating scientist who thus observes universe phenomena and classifies the mathematical facts inherent in the mechanistic phases of the material side of creation.


so we have someone who's science is constrained by the view that Everything can be reduced to a mechanism when it can't. and the mechanistic scientists will soon reach the end of their simplified subset of science and quit striving if they refuse to see that the universe is much more than they allow for...the universe itself is striving.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Excuse me if I don't address your confusion Agon; I am not trying to mix metaphors or speak to my pet points.


Makalu, how far do you think is the extent of materialistic science in the affairs/disorder of western society? What do you mean materialism has already destroyed/ hurt civilization?

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Materialism science: the power of combustion? The valuation of currency based on potential, but then materialism can limit the potentials the human mind is capable of observing, from that currency? Where do you find instances of the operation of materialism within the deeds of mankind? How do you really identify the consequences of materialistic science, after it has been affirmed by human minds? What do you think its actual effects has been, since the times the Urantia Papers were transcribed/produced? Don't you think that there are actual dangers to the planet, if humanity becomes too technocratic or mechanised? What about the inherent connection with nature, with Urantia, that children have and somehow in the western world, we are led away from, into a more sanitized, sterile environment of facts and rational operations? Can you ever say, that the motives of a human individual, were "purely materialistic" and not bearing any % of a psychological or spiritual or even personal motive? Hm, have I ever been too materialistic in my own motives? What is the difference between selfishness, and materialisticness, then, can you say that selfishness might lead to a tendency to indulge in or agree with "materialistic viewpoint"? How does one compare the actual energetic circuits of the adjutant mind spirits of the Divine Minister, as being considered theoretically real by material standards?

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SEla_Kelly wrote:


Makalu, how far do you think is the extent of materialistic science in the affairs/disorder of western society? What do you mean materialism has already destroyed/ hurt civilization?


uh well science in general has advanced quickly....materialism is a philosophy and in general that's not advanced in stride. so there's an inbalance that's being rectified to some degree...

i'm not aware that i said materialism has already destroyed/hurt civilization...but there's this:

Quote:
For when culture advances overfast, when material achievement outruns the evolution of worship-wisdom, then does civilization contain within itself the seeds of retrogression; and unless buttressed by the swift augmentation of experiential wisdom, such human societies will recede from high but premature levels of attainment, and the “dark ages” of the interregnum of wisdom will bear witness to the inexorable restoration of the imbalance between self-liberty and selfcontrol.


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Makalu wrote:
so we have someone who's science is constrained by the view that Everything can be reduced to a mechanism when it can't. and the mechanistic scientists will soon reach the end of their simplified subset of science and quit striving if they refuse to see that the universe is much more than they allow for...the universe itself is striving.


Ah, okay. I think I get it. Without the appreciation of the elliptical symmetry of all relational concepts, pure materialistic science is destined to follow a linear line of reasoning of cause and effect which eventually leads to "nowhere". Is that it?


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Materialism science: the power of combustion? The valuation of currency based on potential, but then materialism can limit the potentials the human mind is capable of observing, from that currency? Where do you find instances of the operation of materialism within the deeds of mankind? How do you really identify the consequences of materialistic science, after it has been affirmed by human minds? What do you think its actual effects has been, since the times the Urantia Papers were transcribed/produced? Don't you think that there are actual dangers to the planet, if humanity becomes too technocratic or mechanised? What about the inherent connection with nature, with Urantia, that children have and somehow in the western world, we are led away from, into a more sanitized, sterile environment of facts and rational operations? Can you ever say, that the motives of a human individual, were "purely materialistic" and not bearing any % of a psychological or spiritual or even personal motive? Hm, have I ever been too materialistic in my own motives? What is the difference between selfishness, and materialisticness, then, can you say that selfishness might lead to a tendency to indulge in or agree with "materialistic viewpoint"? How does one compare the actual energetic circuits of the adjutant mind spirits of the Divine Minister, as being considered theoretically real by material standards?


All great questions, some of which I've asked earlier in this thread. But to be fair, I think there is a subtle difference between materialism and a purely materialistic science. One is a philosophy the other a science without philosophy, if that makes any sense, which I 'm not sure it does.

I do think materialism is a form of selfishness, or perhaps placing undue importance on physical things, but I'm not sure it has anything to do with a purely materialistic science which is focused solely on cause and effect, mathematical discretion.


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katroofjebus wrote:

Ah, okay. I think I get it. Without the appreciation of the elliptical symmetry of all relational concepts, pure materialistic science is destined to follow a linear line of reasoning of cause and effect which eventually leads to "nowhere". Is that it?


yeah i think that if you can't find a mechanism behind every phenomenon it would lead to "we don't know" and since we're just machines in a machine "we can't know and it doesn't matter" sort of conclusions.


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Makalu wrote:
yeah i think that if you can't find a mechanism behind every phenomenon it would lead to "we don't know" and since we're just machines in a machine "we can't know and it doesn't matter" sort of conclusions.


I guess that could lead to a really bad case of nihilism.


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yeah...

Quote:
195:6.8 (2077.4) Materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.


for what its worth i wouldnt describe the purely materialistic science as "science without a philosophy"...it's a philosophy that regards itself as scientific and claims to be science but of course isn't...that's technically impossible.

Quote:
195:7.9 (2079.4) A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific.


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Makalu wrote:
for what its worth i wouldnt describe the purely materialistic science as "science without a philosophy"...it's a philosophy that regards itself as scientific and claims to be science but of course isn't...that's technically impossible.

Quote:
195:7.9 (2079.4) A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific.


I see your point, but it works only if "purely materialistic" is always synonymous with "mechanistic", which it may be. I don't know for sure, which is why I started this thread. The above reference speaks of a philosophy of mechanism. Would a purely materialistic science even have a philosophy? It would be entirely robotic and incapable of such a thing, which I suppose is your point, though I'm not exactly sure. If so, then a purely materialistic science is impossible, it could never happen. Which makes me wonder why they bother to warn us that it can lead to the collapse of civilization. It seems that it's not impossible, or am I confused? (that is possible) Why the warning?


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katroofjebus wrote:

I see your point, but it works only if "purely materialistic" is always synonymous with "mechanistic", which it may be. I don't know for sure, which is why I started this thread. The above reference speaks of a philosophy of mechanism. Would a purely materialistic science even have a philosophy? It would be entirely robotic and incapable of such a thing, which I suppose is your point, though I'm not exactly sure. If so, then a purely materialistic science is impossible, it could never happen. Which makes me wonder why they bother to warn us that it can lead to the collapse of civilization. It seems that it's not impossible, or am I confused? (that is possible) Why the warning?



yes that's right...a purely materialistic science is impossible...it's a logical fallacy. but we can't separate science from scientists in reality and people have constructed fallacious philosophies. the papers are trying to point out the basic fault in the whole concept of materialistic science and even in idealistic science there in paper 133 too:

Quote:
132:1.2 (1457.1) .... The scientist, as such, is limited to the discovery of the relatedness of material facts. Technically, he has no right to assert that he is either materialist or idealist, for in so doing he has assumed to forsake the attitude of a true scientist since any and all such assertions of attitude are the very essence of philosophy.


...it's humans not differentiating between their materialistic philosophy and science in human experience...the way i see it at the moment anyway which might not be too clear lol. those sections on materialism in paper 195 go on to point out a number of practical examples of faults in the logic. maybe its all just wanting to clarify that people can attempt to construct a valid purely materialistic philosophy and warning them of the pitfalls ahead if they attempt it?

hope this clarifies something a bit somewhere anyhow...


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