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Stephen says above: "How did Jesus fulfill the request of Herod & his plotters who scoured the hills of Galilee, by riding voluntarily into Jerusalem on the colt? Where is the truth, that Jesus fulfilled his own version of Urantia's history, without indulging in the Daniellian version of "Son of Man",
or even to fully conform with his mother Mary's expectation? He did it by being an exemplary Roman Emperor, without participating in party or group demands. He conformed with the demands of the spirit in man's own mind."


Herod was no Roman Emperor. Indeed, none of the Herods were Roman. In any case, the one called "that fox" is a most curious and unworthy hero Stephen. You know, the adulterer and murderer of John and his father who murdered a whole generation of young boys. Which was exemplary Stephen? Which was so responsive to Spirit?


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I can't explain that to you, but I think Herod was really a governor of a Roman Province?? Not a rank to be scoffed at, and indeed foxes are considered to be very "cunning" creatures, yeah? Also, you appear to be confusing two distinct generations, or human individuals, of Herodians, a supposive dynasty? I was actually referring to this passage 132:0.1 SINCE Gonod carried greetings from the princes of India to Tiberius, the Roman ruler, on the third day after their arrival in Rome the two Indians and Jesus appeared before him. The morose emperor was unusually cheerful on this day and chatted long with the trio. And when they had gone from his presence, the emperor, referring to Jesus, remarked to the aide standing on his right, “If I had that fellow's kingly bearing and gracious manner, I would be a real emperor, eh?” The appraisal of one emperor to another.


What quality was exemplary of the ruler Herod?
If you ask me, then, haha what an outrageously embroiled question, the truth is that Herod the latter was exemplary because "he decided to lay hands on the person of Jesus, and sent his followers, searched many avenues, but due to the exemplary service of David Zebedee, that weren't possible until the father's hour for Jesus had come." At least that is my observation according to Urantia Book IV, before Jesus instructed his followers and he fled with his Apostles northly. [154:3.1, 177:0.3]

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Katro, since you wrote that, what do you think is the meaning of such actual sacrifice? The sacrifice of expectation based on premonition? The sacrifice of knowledge, or of hypothesis?


Are you asking me to explain what the midwayer meant by conquest through sacrifice of one's own pride and selfishness? To me it means returning goodness for evil. If when your personality is attacked you attack back then you're responding with negativity in defense of yourself which is prideful and selfish. In order to return goodness for evil one must be willing to put all that aside and only think of truth, beauty and goodness in fulfilling the Father's will. Life becomes less centered around the self and more centered on the Father and this enables one to see others through his eyes thus promoting fatherly love toward others, which is selfless.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
How does one consider the advice of others, the prophecies, and the expectation of what may be possible, in the minds of believers, without indulging in indulgences, such as the cultural view that John the Baptist represented the return of the prophet Elijah?? How did Jesus fulfill the request of Herod & his plotters who scoured the hills of Galilee, by riding voluntarily into Jerusalem on the colt? Where is the truth, that Jesus fulfilled his own version of Urantia's history, without indulging in the Daniellian version of "Son of Man", or even to fully conform with his mother Mary's expectation? He did it by being an exemplary Roman Emperor, without participating in party or group demands. He conformed with the demands of the spirit in man's own mind.


I think it was the other way around actually. After Jesus' death his followers conformed their mythos to apply to the life of Jesus. Jesus well knew all the myths, and perhaps he didn't object to some of them, but his only focus was doing the will of his Father. Sometimes it does no good to attempt to excise deeply imbedded beliefs, in fact it can do more harm than good. In such cases I think Jesus, and other celestials, attempt to offer new revelatory truth which closely conforms to evolutionary thinking. In this way truth eventually crowds out erroneous ideas without causing a psychic upheaval. There are many references to this in the Revelation which I can provide if you like.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Also, to know that the plans that God has laid for the human individual, are or should be considered "as sacred" as the post-settled status of Urantia. I think it's enough to encourage everyone to forget who you think I am, to forget who they think you ought to be, and to forget even your highest beliefs in what God thinks you ought to make of this day, in order to dive into the chance to help the supreme being, through an unknowable characteristic.


I don't think self-forgetfulness requires an active attempt to remove everything about the self. It simply means being so engrossed in others, both human and divine, that there is no time to think about one's own self. Have you ever been so absorbed by a project, a movie, or book that time seems to vanish and you completely forget about everything else except the thing your mind is focused on? That's how self-forgetfulness occurs when your only thought is the Father, his will and serving others. You lose yourself in it, but not like a drop of water in the ocean. It's a conscious give and take between the true self in the soul and the Thought Adjuster. All goodness comes from that relationship and it is an unconscious outpouring into one's life.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Don't you want that? Then you have to learn under the supreme guidance of the Thought Adjuster within the human individual. You have to trust God, the inner realm of Paradise that is even bigger than all creation, "as a child draws from his mother the impressions of the material universe", in order to love what you are doing, and in this to set aside all scripture and find the works that are revealed by the father.


Yes, yes. There's no question that self-forgetfulness, the sacrifice of pride and selfishness, involves total trust in the Father. As I see it, there's no other way to accomplish such a thing.


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Well, the only thing is that we are thinking about the work of Jesus, what he did and what he was willing to "set aside" for others to accomplish. But in terms of Aposleship, we know that each Apostle worked in twos, often enough, that the first six Apostles were allowed to select one new member of the Apostles. But were they not fathers, with households of their own to help rear and attend? The emperor had an aide "to his right", but in terms of God, we remember the adage "who is like God? there is none beside Him." i.e. "There is no ruler besides Jesus/Christ Michael, at least in Nebadon, that Master Son who allows his servants to become like masters themselves, sons of God."
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Well, the only thing is that we are thinking about the work of Jesus, what he did and what he was willing to "set aside" for others to accomplish. But in terms of Aposleship, we know that each Apostle worked in twos, often enough, that the first six Apostles were allowed to select one new member of the Apostles. But were they not fathers, with households of their own to help rear and attend? The emperor had an aide "to his right", but in terms of God, we remember the adage "who is like God? there is none beside Him." i.e. "There is no ruler besides Jesus/Christ Michael, at least in Nebadon, that Master Son who allows his servants to become like masters themselves, sons of God."


It's beautiful isn't it? How the Creator shares so much of himself and makes us in his own image? I think it's actually the definition of beauty.

(646:4) 56:10.3 Philosophy you somewhat grasp, and divinity you comprehend in worship, social service, and personal spiritual experience, but the pursuit of beauty—cosmology—you all too often limit to the study of man's crude artistic endeavors. Beauty, art, is largely a matter of the unification of contrasts. Variety is essential to the concept of beauty. The supreme beauty, the height of finite art, is the drama of the unification of the vastness of the cosmic extremes of Creator and creature. Man finding God and God finding man—the creature becoming perfect as is the Creator—that is the supernal achievement of the supremely beautiful, the attainment of the apex of cosmic art.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I can't explain that to you, but I think Herod was really a governor of a Roman Province?? Not a rank to be scoffed at, and indeed foxes are considered to be very "cunning" creatures, yeah? Also, you appear to be confusing two distinct generations, or human individuals, of Herodians, a supposive dynasty? I was actually referring to this passage 132:0.1 SINCE Gonod carried greetings from the princes of India to Tiberius, the Roman ruler, on the third day after their arrival in Rome the two Indians and Jesus appeared before him. The morose emperor was unusually cheerful on this day and chatted long with the trio. And when they had gone from his presence, the emperor, referring to Jesus, remarked to the aide standing on his right, “If I had that fellow's kingly bearing and gracious manner, I would be a real emperor, eh?” The appraisal of one emperor to another.


What quality was exemplary of the ruler Herod?
If you ask me, then, haha what an outrageously embroiled question, the truth is that Herod the latter was exemplary because "he decided to lay hands on the person of Jesus, and sent his followers, searched many avenues, but due to the exemplary service of David Zebedee, that weren't possible until the father's hour for Jesus had come." At least that is my observation according to Urantia Book IV, before Jesus instructed his followers and he fled with his Apostles northly. [154:3.1, 177:0.3]


Actually Stephen you don't need to explain it as the UB does that. But it would help if you read the UB to eliminate all the confusions and errors in your posts. The quote you now reference has absolutely nothing at all to do with Herod - none of them - father and 2 sons. When Jesus called the younger Herod Antipas (who murdered John later) a fox, it was no compliment Stephen. Herod refused to pay Jesus the wages owed to Joseph upon his death on the job. None of the 3 named Herod were Roman Stephen. None were exemplary. None were Spirit led. All were cruel killers of children, prophets, disciples and Apostles of Jesus, and Jesus himself - and unjust rulers according to the UB. The elder Herod killed his own wife and other sons of his besides Antipas and Archaleus. Quite the viper's den of sin and iniquity to uphold and admire there Stephen!!

For those who wish to know the actual facts and truth of the Herod's of the Bible and the times of Jesus:

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

Another example of how helpful it would be Stephen if you were to ever choose to post text in support of your preaching and so called teaching. Just sayin'.....

Bradly


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To me, "foxo" is a compliment, or actually both a compliment and a duplicitous insult: as a fox is part of the canins family, i.e. Rome, Romulus the father of Roma whose mother was a great wolfette. So, Herod as "that fox" is a great allusion towards the harassment, the wild sleuthing, that Herod paid to Jesus, his flock. i.e. "foxes are in the wolf family, just as Judah is a house of Rome (after Simon/Jonathan)."

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To me, "foxo" is a compliment, as a fox is part of the canins family, i.e. Rome, Romulus the father of Roma whose mother was a great wolfette. So, Herod as "that fox" is a great allusion towards the harassment, the wild sleuthing, that Herod paid to Jesus, his flock. i.e. "foxes are in the wolf family, just as Judah is a house of Rome (after Simon/Jonathan)."


HAHA! I doubt very seriously whether young Jesus - cheated out of his father's back pay - was giving Herod a compliment.


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brooklyn_born wrote:
Holy texts, scriptures and the like I do not think are a problem. The individual can read these writings and formulate opinions on them. Unfortunately certain figures within organized religions, religious factions, groups, fellowships, communities, etc, however, which have a history of attempting to and/or succeeding at usurping power of their respective collectives, either by force or compliance, to control the interpretation of said texts is the issue. In fact, Urantia fellowships are not exempt from this. And I would say that you have probably observed this on our bulletin board.

The human social-psychology is such that we want to control and dominate others, traits we have yet to socialize, fully.

I think we would have to go through the experience of organized religion if we desire a strict and uniform interpretation of UB. I used to desire it because I miss going to Church and experiencing that religious communion. Experiences I have had over the years in UB circles have left me with a distaste for it though.

I think your daughter could come to embrace TUB independently if she found its content interesting enough, and resonating with her.

I believe interpretation of holy texts, scriptures, etc., should be left to the individual, and not the organization. Admittedly if there are people who want to form a fellowship, there should be a basic understanding to which they all agree. And that understanding would be the foundation of the group.



While I agree with much of what you wrote, I find it unfortunate how you feel toward UB fellowships. Sure, there are groups that could exploit members through their love of the Urantia Book, but the beauty of the UB is that unlike the Bible, there is no strong language demanding obedience to any collective within the text. The UB encourages personal experience and unlike the Bible, nobody can twist the writing to make people believe obedience and the surrender of your independent thinking to an individual or group is the only way to obtain salvation.

The book meets one's immediate spiritual need and does not impose itself on anyone. Any individual claiming to have exclusive truth claims is lying even when using the UB. Any destructive or abusive UB based group won't hold together for very long unlike Bible based destructive and abusive groups.

I personally hope that one day financially permitting I will be able to attend a UB reading group or convention. I feel a sense of loneliness of a sort knowing I am probably the only reader in my hometown.


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I agree. One's low opinions and expectations of others is primarily relevant to the one with such low opinions.

There is a fable about the old man who sat daily near the gated entrance to an ancient walled city who loved watching all the coming and going and daily parade of activity of friends and strangers.

One day a family in a wagon arrived at the gate, obviously moving their household. The man driving stopped the wagon and announced they were seeking a new home and inquired as to the nature of those who lived in the city.

The old man asked about the nature of the folks where they had just left and was told that they were lowly and unfriendly and untrustworthy. The old man thought a moment and declared they would also find such folk here and would probably be unhappy here. The householder grunted he figured as much and declared they would move on and try somewhere else.

Later, another householder also stopped and made the same inquiry and was asked the same question. This time the family spoke glowingly of the friends and neighbors they left behind. The old man smiled and embraced them and declared that the family would find the same wonderful folk here and so they happily stayed.

One most often finds what one looks for...even when untrue.

Things may not be as they appear to us...but how can they be different?? Only by changing the viewer does or can the view also change. Those unhappy with the view mistakenly blame the view for their unhappiness.

The UB teaches the viewer determines the view. As the viewer changes...so does the view!!

:idea: :!: 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
One most often finds what one looks for...even when untrue.

Things may not be as they appear to us...but how can they be different?? Only by changing the viewer does or can the view also change. Those unhappy with the view mistakenly blame the view for their unhappiness.

The UB teaches the viewer determines the view. As the viewer changes...so does the view!!

:idea: :!: 8)



If the viewer determines the view, then the viewer is spiritually blind. He is only seeing what he chooses/wants to see. The viewer does not need to change; he needs to clean his lense.

If I blame something I see for my unhappiness, I would have to think that which I have blamed is also unhappy. Do I think that God is unhappy?

Also, "changing the viewer" is a phrase, depending on your interpretation, that could either imply self-growth, or "replacing one viewer with another".

Anyhow, robust souls of Urantia know that their role in this universe is to be doers, not viewers. Honestly, do you grasp, Bradley, what kind fate you put on yourself with your self-defeating attitude?

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
One most often finds what one looks for...even when untrue.

Things may not be as they appear to us...but how can they be different?? Only by changing the viewer does or can the view also change. Those unhappy with the view mistakenly blame the view for their unhappiness.

The UB teaches the viewer determines the view. As the viewer changes...so does the view!!

:idea: :!: 8)



If the viewer determines the view, then the viewer is spiritually blind. He is only seeing what he chooses/wants to see. The viewer does not need to change; he needs to clean his lense.

If I blame something I see for my unhappiness, I would have to think that which I have blamed is also unhappy. Do I think that God is unhappy?

Also, "changing the viewer" is a phrase, depending on your interpretation, that could either imply self-growth, or "replacing one viewer with another".

Anyhow, robust souls of Urantia know that their role in this universe is to be doers, not viewers. Honestly, do you grasp, Bradley, what kind fate you put on yourself with your self-defeating attitude?


"If the viewer determines the view, then the viewer is spiritually blind."

A false statement Stephen. Hmmm.... And you cannot replace "one viewer with another"...another false statement. Or at least both contradict the Teachings we share here together!!

No matter how educated, experienced, and enlightened we may become still will our view of reality remain relative and partial and subjective....even if less and less subjective over time and by experiential wisdom, still will my view depend upon me as the viewer. I cannot see the universe AS someone else Stephen and neither can you. So....you are correct that the statement implies "self-growth". The view changes as the viewer, or one who views, also changes.

Reality itself does not change. The view or perspective of reality is unique to the viewer - the one who views.

I have no fate...and I choose my destiny and act accordingly. And my view changes constantly as I grow and mature gaining experience and perspective. It is not I who doubts and shares despair and low expectations for my future or that of my fellow tadpoles! I am filled with assurance and confidence of our adventure and outcomes in this friendly universe. I don't know what you're smoking cousin...

As to the view...yes, the viewer limits the view according to their own maturity, knowledge of reality, objectivity, and experiential wisdom....all of which takes time during which borh the viewer and the view will change...simultaneously.

8)


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
If the viewer determines the view, then the viewer is spiritually blind. He is only seeing what he chooses/wants to see. The viewer does not need to change; he needs to clean his lense.


It is true that the Thought Adjuster is the pilot, the one with the right and best view. The ability to view the world as the Father sees it is the goal. I agree that cleaning or purifying the lens helps as long as the lens is angled in the direction of the Father. Outward looking lenses only see the outer world. It's the inner world where one can find the best view of both.

(1217.4) 111:1.9 Mind is your ship, the Adjuster is your pilot, the human will is captain. The master of the mortal vessel should have the wisdom to trust the divine pilot to guide the ascending soul into the morontia harbors of eternal survival.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
If I blame something I see for my unhappiness, I would have to think that which I have blamed is also unhappy. Do I think that God is unhappy?


That's called projection. It happens all the time. People with evil and immature ways of thinking generally believe that everyone else thinks in the same manner as they. That's how people get falsely accused for having evil motivations when they actually don't. I think it's at the root of suspicion. The Revelation even acknowledges this as a reality.

(1918.2) 176:3.9 How prone is man, when he is confronted with the failures of his own making, to put the blame upon others, oftentimes upon those who least deserve it!


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fanofVan wrote:
I agree. One's low opinions and expectations of others is primarily relevant to the one with such low opinions.

There is a fable about the old man who sat daily near the gated entrance to an ancient walled city who loved watching all the coming and going and daily parade of activity of friends and strangers.

One day a family in a wagon arrived at the gate, obviously moving their household. The man driving stopped the wagon and announced they were seeking a new home and inquired as to the nature of those who lived in the city.

The old man asked about the nature of the folks where they had just left and was told that they were lowly and unfriendly and untrustworthy. The old man thought a moment and declared they would also find such folk here and would probably be unhappy here. The householder grunted he figured as much and declared they would move on and try somewhere else.

Later, another householder also stopped and made the same inquiry and was asked the same question. This time the family spoke glowingly of the friends and neighbors they left behind. The old man smiled and embraced them and declared that the family would find the same wonderful folk here and so they happily stayed.

One most often finds what one looks for...even when untrue.

Things may not be as they appear to us...but how can they be different?? Only by changing the viewer does or can the view also change. Those unhappy with the view mistakenly blame the view for their unhappiness.

The UB teaches the viewer determines the view. As the viewer changes...so does the view!!

:idea: :!: 8)



That's a great parable. By the way, just to be clear; I don't necessarily have a problem with practicing traditional Christians. And I don't necessarily blame the church institution I was raised in, but it did not fulfill my spiritual needs. I needed more answers to my inquiries and the Church was unable to provide them. I'm sure you could find lots of unconditional love and a sense of fulfillment where I came from, but I just needed more of "something else" if that makes any sense.

And yes, there are actual destructive groups, but that is not an indictment on all their members and beliefs, just the leadership and maybe SOME of their beliefs.


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William says above: "That's a great parable. By the way, just to be clear; I don't necessarily have a problem with practicing traditional Christians. And I don't necessarily blame the church institution I was raised in, but it did not fulfill my spiritual needs. I needed more answers to my inquiries and the Church was unable to provide them. I'm sure you could find lots of unconditional love and a sense of fulfillment where I came from, but I just needed more of "something else" if that makes any sense."


Makes perfect sense. I felt the same way. And while I have not returned to attending the Christian church, I still really love to visit occasionally. I miss the hymns especially and Sunday School....preaching, not so much. When I left the church, all I could see was hypocrisy and error....my viewer was narrow and judgmental. Now I see the hope and the sincerity and light of faith shine within and am glad. Still not satisfying enough for my regular attendance but.....

I gave birth to soul and learned much in that fold. I have learned since that neither disbelief or false beliefs can prevent spiritization and relationship to God, for faith and truth in this life can be so well disguised and distorted by ignorance, confusion, doubts, distortions, misunderstandings, self importance, metaphysical fictions, blindness, impatience and all other forms of immaturity, inexperience, and lack of wisdom!!

I think the hunger and the yearn and thirst for knowledge, understanding, experience, and wisdom are the same in origin but not the same in personal appetite from one to another. The reality that you continue to seek more and greater understanding is a good thing...but not so universal as one might hope! Some people settle and some are distracted and some become entrenched and become resistant to paradigm shifts and growth of perspective....the view only expands as the viewer grows!!

So glad you are with us here....and best wishes as you study further and get deeper into the Papers. You will find an inexplicable rhythm and cadence and integrated perspective presented by the many different authors. I began to see the UB as a symphonic work or great tapestry of color, pattern, texture whereby the whole work slowly began to emerge from the notes and refrains and instruments introduced one by one and as the threads became woven into a clear pattern and picture of the grand reality it describes!! I hope you have this same experience. I can testify that many readers, I think all readers, find this to be true if they read long enough!!

Bradly 8)

Glad you liked and appreciated the fable/parable. Evidently one here did not get it...…oh well. It goes so well with my favorite Zen saying:

Things are not as they appear...and neither are they different. Ommm…

A few more for fun:

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

“Where there are humans,
You'll find flies,
And Buddhas.”
― Kobayashi Issa

“The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.”
― Masanobu Fukuoka, The One-Straw Revolution

“If you are unable to find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?”
― Dogen

“The more you know, the less you need.”
― Yvon Chouinard, Let My People Go Surfing: The Education of a Reluctant Businessman

“The things I carry are my thoughts. That's it. They are the only weight. My thoughts determine whether I am free and light or burdened.”
― Kamal Ravikant, Live Your Truth

“He knows not where he's going,
For the ocean will decide,
Its not the destination,
It's the glory of the ride”
― Edward Monkton, Zen Dog

“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion.”
― SENG-TS'AN

If asked, and if needed, I am happy to relate each saying above to the UB...or the parable about the old man at the gate!

:biggrin:


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