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This expression comes from the fact that you cannot feed a baby solids before they grow teeth.

Anyway, it means you cannot teach somebody more advanced concepts until you teach basics. That's how education works and the UB even concurs with the progression to Paradise plan.

Uncontroversial enough right? Here's the problem: destructive groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientology use this as an excuse to draw people deeper in and trap them. Even the Latter-Day Saints do this.

Some examples: the LDS will not give people a copy of the Pearl of Great Price until AFTER they are baptized and then you are locked in to believing the existence of a Heavenly Grandfather. Jehovah's Witnesses will tell you that you can attain salvation on a paradise earth but leave out until later that part of it requiring the brutal annihilation of billions of souls. Scientology requires you to pay higher and higher payments for more esoteric knowledge.

We in the UB reader community are given the freedom to seek knowledge out ourselves and not be dependent on a human institution to print the next edition of a magazine therefore we are not a destructive group.

With that in mind, is there a sweet middle compromise?

Do UB readers have to go through the experience of organized religion before being introduced to the UB? If I raised my daughter as a free thinker and never required her to sit in church pews, could she embrace the UB later in life if she chooses to do so?

edit: The LDS might say that starting life as a Protestant is a good stepping stone to learning about the Heavenly Grandfather. But I say that is an insult to my intelligence.


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The Master addressed your (important) point at least a couple of times:

…Said Jesus: “Give the milk of truth to those who are babes in spiritual perception. In your living and loving ministry serve spiritual food in attractive form and suited to the capacity of receptivity of each of your inquirers….” (1474:2) 133:4.2

…Jesus introduced the evening’s conference by saying. “My beloved, you must always make a difference in teaching so as to suit your presentation of truth to the minds and hearts before you….” (1692:0) 151:3.1

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rick warren wrote:
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The Master addressed your (important) point at least a couple of times:

…Said Jesus: “Give the milk of truth to those who are babes in spiritual perception. In your living and loving ministry serve spiritual food in attractive form and suited to the capacity of receptivity of each of your inquirers….” (1474:2) 133:4.2

…Jesus introduced the evening’s conference by saying. “My beloved, you must always make a difference in teaching so as to suit your presentation of truth to the minds and hearts before you….” (1692:0) 151:3.1

.


Ah yes, well I suppose teaching truths that suit the immediate need is the right way to go. Then later one can learn of more difficult truths to swallow if they are more spiritually aware and have a greater yearning.

However, my concern is the price a student must pay as they advance. Suppose a mainstream Baptist for instance gets his spiritual uplift in his church. When he/she picks up the UB, the price for that greater truth is family tensions when some of them declare the UB to be the "work of Satan" This is just one example of what I mean.

I should also add my earlier examples in this: the problem is the degree of commitment one must give to learning harder truths. Destructive groups will introduce so called "truths" the student cannot accept at any stage of their education but then are already paying the price by joining the destructive group.


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William S. wrote:

However, my concern is the price a student must pay as they advance. Suppose a mainstream Baptist for instance gets his spiritual uplift in his church. When he/she picks up the UB, the price for that greater truth is family tensions when some of them declare the UB to be the "work of Satan" This is just one example of what I mean.

I should also add my earlier examples in this: the problem is the degree of commitment one must give to learning harder truths. Destructive groups will introduce so called "truths" the student cannot accept at any stage of their education but then are already paying the price by joining the destructive group.


That's a legitimate concern I think. About ten or fifteen years ago an enthusiastic new reader, and truly a good familyman, called saying he was a Jehovah Witness when he found the UB. We welcomed him to our study group and encouraged his reading/understanding. But his wife and kids, who he had brought into the JW's, rejected his new discovery and 'shunned' him, broke off all contact. He was terribly conflicted and got depressed. In spite of our efforts to help, he took his life in a lonely motel after about six months. It was sickening, and a harsh testament to the validity of your concern.

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Last edited by rick warren on Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:53 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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There is a problem when people decide to embrace certain religious beliefs, like those cited in this thread. But this is part of each individual's search for truth. It is what it is. It takes a lot of courage to oppose some traditional religions because they are so restrictive as to what a believer may even think. But many prefer to stick with traditional religions because that is the best they can do. The truthseeker has to think outside all traditional religious boxes.

Quote:
155:5.10 And for a long time there will live on earth those timid, fearful, and hesitant individuals who will prefer thus to secure their religious consolations, even though, in so casting their lot with the religions of authority, they compromise the sovereignty of personality, debase the dignity of self-respect, and utterly surrender the right to participate in that most thrilling and inspiring of all possible human experiences: the personal quest for truth, the exhilaration of facing the perils of intellectual discovery, the determination to explore the realities of personal religious experience, the supreme satisfaction of experiencing the personal triumph of the actual realization of the victory of spiritual faith over intellectual doubt as it is honestly won in the supreme adventure of all human existence—man seeking God, for himself and as himself, and finding him.

155:5.11 The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind—the theology of authority—requires little or none of these exertions from its formal believers. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy path for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with those faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search for the farther shores of spiritual realities as they may be discovered by the progressive human mind and experienced by the evolving human soul.


https://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-155-fleeing-through-northern-galilee#U155_5_10

But I believe that our merciful God does honor even these attempts to find him in traditional and institutionalized religions.

I have lost one Catholic sister because of my attachment to The Urantia Book. She never ceased to try and scare me with threats of hell and damnation, and refused to even discuss my experiences with God, claiming that I was being led astray, lied to, and in service to the devil. For her, her Catholic faith allowed NO compromise whatsoever. We no longer speak. It is so sad.

I am having a little trouble with the search today, but somewhere - maybe someone else knows where - Jesus talks about how antagonisms can arise between family members when one member believes in Jesus' teachings and others do not.

MaryJo


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maryjo606 wrote:
There is a problem when people decide to embrace certain religious beliefs, like those cited in this thread. But this is part of each individual's search for truth. It is what it is. It takes a lot of courage to oppose some traditional religions because they are so restrictive as to what a believer may even think. But many prefer to stick with traditional religions because that is the best they can do. The truthseeker has to think outside all traditional religious boxes.

But I believe that our merciful God does honor even these attempts to find him in traditional and institutionalized religions.

I have lost one Catholic sister because of my attachment to The Urantia Book. She never ceased to try and scare me with threats of hell and damnation, and refused to even discuss my experiences with God, claiming that I was being led astray, lied to, and in service to the devil. For her, her Catholic faith allowed NO compromise whatsoever. We no longer speak. It is so sad.

I am having a little trouble with the search today, but somewhere - maybe someone else knows where - Jesus talks about how antagonisms can arise between family members when one member believes in Jesus' teachings and others do not.

MaryJo


That raises an interesting question. Are institutionalized religions good stepping stones at all for the truthseeker yearning for more?

I'm going to speak in metaphors here so please bear with me:

Is the milk (traditional religions) regressive rather than progressing us to the meat (the Urantia Book)?


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Is the milk (traditional religions) regressive rather than progressing us to the meat (the Urantia Book)?


This probably depends upon the individual. I was raised Catholic, just like all my siblings, but I am (I think) the only one who has stepped up to the "meat" that I found in The Urantia Book. My Catholic upbringing did introduce me to Jesus and to God (good milk), but the surrounding hypocrisy and fear tactics drove me to abandon it. I just never could buy the idea that God cared all that much whether I ate meat on Friday or that there was a hell, or that he willed that Jesus be murdered for my sins. I instinctively thought that God was above all of that. But devoted Catholics do believe that stuff and some will fight you tooth and nail over it. Like my sister...it defies reason, but there it is. Or maybe it just depends upon what one thinks is reasonable.


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rick warren wrote:

That's a legitimate concern I think. About ten or fifteen years ago an enthusiastic new reader, and truly a good familyman, called saying he was a Jehovah Witness when he found the UB. We welcomed him to our study group and encouraged his reading/understanding. But his wife and kids, who he had brought into the JW's, rejected his new discovery and 'shunned' him, broke off all contact. He was terribly conflicted and got depressed. In spite of our efforts to help, he took his life in a lonely motel after about six months. It was sickening, and a harsh testament to the validity of your concern.



That almost brought me to tears. And it's conflicting. On the one hand I would say never to encourage people down paths that might make them pay such a high price. And yet I would also say to pursue the truth with more resolve than ever after hearing such a story. Then I remember that high control groups use that same argument for their version of what is true. We need to be different. How is the difficult question to answer.


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William S. wrote:
rick warren wrote:

That's a legitimate concern I think. About ten or fifteen years ago an enthusiastic new reader, and truly a good familyman, called saying he was a Jehovah Witness when he found the UB. We welcomed him to our study group and encouraged his reading/understanding. But his wife and kids, who he had brought into the JW's, rejected his new discovery and 'shunned' him, broke off all contact. He was terribly conflicted and got depressed. In spite of our efforts to help, he took his life in a lonely motel after about six months. It was sickening, and a harsh testament to the validity of your concern.



That almost brought me to tears. And it's conflicting. On the one hand I would say never to encourage people down paths that might make them pay such a high price. And yet I would also say to pursue the truth with more resolve than ever after hearing such a story. Then I remember that high control groups use that same argument for their version of what is true. We need to be different. How is the difficult question to answer.


I might have done a better job persuading him to somehow reconcile with his family, that beliefs divide but faith unites, that family is number one, and truth will eventually conquer all. Maybe everyone involved wishes they had done more. I learned revelation, wrongly applied, can bring disaster. The only comfort, oblique as it might be, is his death wasn't a real death. His faith was strong, so he and his faither family will reunite on mansonia.

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Do UB readers have to go through the experience of organized religion before being introduced to the UB? If I raised my daughter as a free thinker and never required her to sit in church pews, could she embrace the UB later in life if she chooses to do so?

Don't “require” her to sit in a pew or anywhere else. As a cultural experience and shared experiment, just sit in one with her and let her have her experience without your expectations. If she's receptive to the ideas and concepts you share with her, she may embrace the UB later, but you shouldn't care about that. It's not important compared to your daughter finding her own way with the help of her Teacher.

The UB should help free us from all unreasoned worry about our eternal future, and the future of others. Recommend it to others selectively, with no concern with their interest. If your relationship with them isn't a reflection of the good you've gotten from it, why would they want to read it?


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some of the papers are pretty meaty for sure, but also a lot is concerned with tossing out "sour milk" errors in past religious thought, and some is just gravy for the advanced. to the extent that the revelation deals with correcting errors i guess we could say it provides a stepping stone from institutional religions, just as confusion often follows growth as well as destruction...but probably not a necessary provision.

anyway here's a few bits from the papers that you may, or may not, find applicable to the questions about children:

Quote:
92:7.6 (1013.1) The quality of a religion is indicated by:

92:7.7 (1013.2) 1. Level of values—loyalties. *

92:7.8 (1013.3) 2. Depth of meanings—the sensitization of the individual to the idealistic appreciation of these highest values.

92:7.9 (1013.4) 3. Consecration intensity—the degree of devotion to these divine values.

92:7.10 (1013.5) 4. The unfettered progress of the personality in this cosmic path of idealistic spiritual living, realization of sonship with God and never-ending progressive citizenship in the universe.

92:7.11 (1013.6) Religious meanings progress in self-consciousness when the child transfers his ideas of omnipotence from his parents to God. And the entire religious experience of such a child is largely dependent on whether fear or love has dominated the parent-child relationship.


Quote:
100:1.3 (1094.5) Give every developing child a chance to grow his own religious experience; do not force a ready-made adult experience upon him.


Quote:
167:6.6 (1840.5) .....Beauty is most religious when it is most simple and naturelike. How unfortunate that little children should have their first introduction to concepts of public worship in cold and barren rooms so devoid of the beauty appeal and so empty of all suggestion of good cheer and inspiring holiness! The child should be introduced to worship in nature’s outdoors and later accompany his parents to public houses of religious assembly which are at least as materially attractive and artistically beautiful as the home in which he is daily domiciled.


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177:2.4 (1922.2) ....."Your whole afterlife will be more happy and dependable because you spent your first eight years in a normal and well-regulated home. You possess a strong and well-knit character because you grew up in a home where love prevailed and wisdom reigned. Such a childhood training produces a type of loyalty which assures me that you will go through with the course you have begun.”

177:2.5 (1922.3) For more than an hour Jesus and John continued this discussion of home life. The Master went on to explain to John how a child is wholly dependent on his parents and the associated home life for all his early concepts of everything intellectual, social, moral, and even spiritual since the family represents to the young child all that he can first know of either human or divine relationships. The child must derive his first impressions of the universe from the mother’s care; he is wholly dependent on the earthly father for his first ideas of the heavenly Father. The child’s subsequent life is made happy or unhappy, easy or difficult, in accordance with his early mental and emotional life, conditioned by these social and spiritual relationships of the home. A human being’s entire afterlife is enormously influenced by what happens during the first few years of existence.


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William S. wrote:
Is the milk (traditional religions) regressive rather than progressing us to the meat (the Urantia Book)?

I think that milk implies something within the household that the child matures from, delivered directly from the breast of the mother so to speak, and to me it symbolises "the understanding of God's will". The meat sounds like "the doing of God's will". Sorry I just wanted to offer another simile towards what you are speaking of. Children of Urantia are not universally born into traditional religious cultures; some are fatherless; but the culture of the home is where the child learns, and the city-at-large (or the pastur/verdant farm) is where man must mete his ends.

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Holy texts, scriptures and the like I do not think are a problem. The individual can read these writings and formulate opinions on them. Unfortunately certain figures within organized religions, religious factions, groups, fellowships, communities, etc, however, which have a history of attempting to and/or succeeding at usurping power of their respective collectives, either by force or compliance, to control the interpretation of said texts is the issue. In fact, Urantia fellowships are not exempt from this. And I would say that you have probably observed this on our bulletin board.

The human social-psychology is such that we want to control and dominate others, traits we have yet to socialize, fully.

I think we would have to go through the experience of organized religion if we desire a strict and uniform interpretation of UB. I used to desire it because I miss going to Church and experiencing that religious communion. Experiences I have had over the years in UB circles have left me with a distaste for it though.

I think your daughter could come to embrace TUB independently if she found its content interesting enough, and resonating with her.

I believe interpretation of holy texts, scriptures, etc., should be left to the individual, and not the organization. Admittedly if there are people who want to form a fellowship, there should be a basic understanding to which they all agree. And that understanding would be the foundation of the group.





William S. wrote:
This expression comes from the fact that you cannot feed a baby solids before they grow teeth.

Anyway, it means you cannot teach somebody more advanced concepts until you teach basics. That's how education works and the UB even concurs with the progression to Paradise plan.

Uncontroversial enough right? Here's the problem: destructive groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientology use this as an excuse to draw people deeper in and trap them. Even the Latter-Day Saints do this.

Some examples: the LDS will not give people a copy of the Pearl of Great Price until AFTER they are baptized and then you are locked in to believing the existence of a Heavenly Grandfather. Jehovah's Witnesses will tell you that you can attain salvation on a paradise earth but leave out until later that part of it requiring the brutal annihilation of billions of souls. Scientology requires you to pay higher and higher payments for more esoteric knowledge.

We in the UB reader community are given the freedom to seek knowledge out ourselves and not be dependent on a human institution to print the next edition of a magazine therefore we are not a destructive group.

With that in mind, is there a sweet middle compromise?

Do UB readers have to go through the experience of organized religion before being introduced to the UB? If I raised my daughter as a free thinker and never required her to sit in church pews, could she embrace the UB later in life if she chooses to do so?

edit: The LDS might say that starting life as a Protestant is a good stepping stone to learning about the Heavenly Grandfather. But I say that is an insult to my intelligence.

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The one thing I love about the religion of Jesus is that salvation does not require any sacrifice other than the sacrifice of our own self-importance. What a blessing to know that a full life of faith can be lovingly lived without ever being required to mention the Revelation directly. Just living selflessly is sufficient.

(1590:03) 141:3.8 Jesus portrayed conquest by sacrifice, the sacrifice of pride and selfishness.

If my family wanted to disown me because I read the Urantia Book, then I would only read in secret and let my life be a testament to my faith in truth. I would work to keep the peace. I think it would be horribly selfish to insist that my loved ones think and act like I do, or to uproot their entire faith and world-view to adopt something new just so I could have things the way I want them to be. It's an abomination and very alien to my way of thinking.


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"Self-forgetfulness" as the technique from Jesus, in what the midwayers observe as "sacrifice of self-pride"?
If you can forget everything you have done, you will be more able to perform feats/assignments. The moral imperative, or the doing of God's will according to the human individual's wisdom, should not be conditioned ultimately by the facts of human experience? How do we each learn to set down our earthly experiences in favour of the service that would be eternal? Katro, since you wrote that, what do you think is the meaning of such actual sacrifice? The sacrifice of expectation based on premonition? The sacrifice of knowledge, or of hypothesis?

How does one consider the advice of others, the prophecies, and the expectation of what may be possible, in the minds of believers, without indulging in indulgences, such as the cultural view that John the Baptist represented the return of the prophet Elijah?? How did Jesus fulfill the request of Herod & his plotters who scoured the hills of Galilee, by riding voluntarily into Jerusalem on the colt? Where is the truth, that Jesus fulfilled his own version of Urantia's history, without indulging in the Daniellian version of "Son of Man", or even to fully conform with his mother Mary's expectation? He did it by being an exemplary Roman Emperor, without participating in party or group demands. He conformed with the demands of the spirit in man's own mind.

Also, to know that the plans that God has laid for the human individual, are or should be considered "as sacred" as the post-settled status of Urantia. I think it's enough to encourage everyone to forget who you think I am, to forget who they think you ought to be, and to forget even your highest beliefs in what God thinks you ought to make of this day, in order to dive into the chance to help the supreme being, through an unknowable characteristic. Don't you want that? Then you have to learn under the supreme guidance of the Thought Adjuster within the human individual. You have to trust God, the inner realm of Paradise that is even bigger than all creation, "as a child draws from his mother the impressions of the material universe", in order to love what you are doing, and in this to set aside all scripture and find the works that are revealed by the father.

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