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I agree. It could get gruesome...in a hurry! The Midwest is having 100 year floods....every year. New records....every year. Tornadoes in the deep south and the northeast. US media is not really telling us what's going on elsewhere. China releases no bad news ever. So yes the consequences are upon us I think. Hopefully we will get some cyclical relief but the trends seem clear enough.

I'm afraid we'll be combatting the effects too much and at too high a cost to address the causes if we even can address the natural causes and there's plenty of those. And personally, I think human activity and priorities the past two centuries has been an accelerant and contribution to the result but I don't think science has or can prove industrialization and carbon are the actual or principal cause. We shall see. The consequences and effects do not care about causes regardless.

There are some very creative and interesting scientific theories and inventions for removal of carbon from the atmosphere but I lack confidence in the Frankenstein solutions to problems early in their development and experimentation. Could we cause a snow that will not stop as a mechanical or scientific solution to global warming?? Probably. Oh dear.

For now, Canada might think about building a wall!! Sorry....political humor. :-$


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katroofjebus wrote:
William S. wrote:
The approaching era of light and life is of little comfort when trying to prevent massive human suffering.


Although I laud your concern over "massive human suffering", I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. Are you referring to an apocalyptic event? An event of great urgency?


What I mean is that telling me of a possibly distant future utopia age is of no reassurance when in the more near future people are to suffer often on a massive scale.

Years ago people categorized countries as developing and developed. They lamented the state of affairs and the lives of people in developing countries despite the label developing giving the suggestion that progress is being made.

Today Rwanda is one of the most prosperous countries in Africa with the capital Kigali praised as one of the most clean and orderly cities on the continent. That does not mean I would say the 1994 genocide was part of the grand plan to get to where they are now.


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William S. wrote:
What I mean is that telling me of a possibly distant future utopia age is of no reassurance when in the more near future people are to suffer often on a massive scale.


I understand how silly that sounds and I agree that it makes no sense at all to stand by and do nothing when you clearly see such danger, that knowledge of a potentially idyllic future of this planet is not pertinent to the situation as you see it right now. I also understand that an enormous number of the people on this planet truly believe that this cataclysmic event is guaranteed to happen within their own lifetimes which gives it stupendous urgency. I am not one of those people, but I do understand and have sympathy for your concerns.

Here's my position, for what it's worth: I'm 100% confident that there will be no sudden ruination of the planet or worldwide flooding. I'm 100% confident in the course of physical evolution which occurs according to the laws of physics. There's one thing we know about the laws of physics, they are immutable and nature responds to the laws of physics. Humans cannot change the laws of physics. There is nothing anyone can do about the laws of physics other than learn to understand them and work with them. I think this requires education, knowledge and research. Politics and activism don't offer those things. So, if I were truly concerned about this issue, the very best thing I could do is dive deeply into studying the laws of physics and understand how they affect the planet. I would not get my information from the media because they are not physicists, they are in the business of making money.


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fanofVan states that "the atmosphere is an organism" I hope you are being metaphorical otherwise I disagree.

but katroof explains a few times here,
[quote = "katroofjebus"]
If we take care of one another, the planet will take care of itself. There are far more important things to worry about than mother nature. She already has a ton of helpers from the Divine Minister. I'm not saying we should ignore or abuse mother nature, I'm saying we should not obsess over her.[/quote]

How can simply take care of one another, if environmental stewardship is not our own customs? That is to say you have too much concern for other people than to worry about the planet. How can you say that you care about your children if you do not teach them to take care of the planet?

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Katroofjebus used the phrase "this cataclysmic event" when referring to climate change. But the reason climate change is so complex and difficult to wrap our heads around as a society is because it is a loonnnnnnnnnng, drawn-out process of almost imperceptible incremental change.

The urgency has come into play because that slow, incremental slide down the slippery slope has at last brought its impacts home to a large number of people in the form of frequent and more severe hurricanes, drought, wildfires, glacier melting, famine, etc. And it most definitely is happening in our lifetimes. Today in the news are multiple stories about farmers in the Midwest US who are unable to plant their corn crops because their fields are standing in water due to the changing climate and more severe weather patterns.

I don't know of anyone who sees climate change as a single event. I'm curious where you draw that from. You also say, "sudden ruination of the planet or worldwide flooding". Again, I have not seen or heard of anyone building Noah's Ark v.2 because of climate change. Climate change exhibits in many forms; yes, regional flooding in some geographies is one of them, but there are many others. Worldwide famine may be one of the more cataclysmic outcomes, but even that wouldn't happen suddenly.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
The urgency has come into play because that slow, incremental slide down the slippery slope has at last brought its impacts home to a large number of people in the form of frequent and more severe hurricanes, drought, wildfires, glacier melting, famine, etc. And it most definitely is happening in our lifetimes. Today in the news are multiple stories about farmers in the Midwest US who are unable to plant their corn crops because their fields are standing in water due to the changing climate and more severe weather patterns.


And what exact laws of physics are causing all of this? What law of physics do you think we can work with in order to change the situation? Are you absolutely sure none of this happened at any other time in the planet's extremely loooooong history? I found some references that blame nature's imperfection on three things: 1.imperfections of progressive evolution; 2. rebellion; and 3. misthinking creatures. There it is! Humans are responsible. I think you can take that to the bank.

(57.2) 4:2.5 God is not personally present in nature or in any of the forces of nature, for the phenomenon of nature is the superimposition of the imperfections of progressive evolution and, sometimes, the consequences of insurrectionary rebellion, upon the Paradise foundations of God's universal law. As it appears on such a world as Urantia, nature can never be the adequate expression, the true representation, the faithful portrayal, of an all-wise and infinite God.

(57.5) 4:2.8 And nature is marred, her beautiful face is scarred, her features are seared, by the rebellion, the misconduct, the misthinking of the myriads of creatures who are a part of nature, but who have contributed to her disfigurement in time. No, nature is not God. Nature is not an object of worship.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
I don't know of anyone who sees climate change as a single event. I'm curious where you draw that from. You also say, "sudden ruination of the planet or worldwide flooding". Again, I have not seen or heard of anyone building Noah's Ark v.2 because of climate change. Climate change exhibits in many forms; yes, regional flooding in some geographies is one of them, but there are many others. Worldwide famine may be one of the more cataclysmic outcomes, but even that wouldn't happen suddenly.


So what is your solution? I've seen people absolutely convinced this devastation will make earth an unlivable planet in their lifetimes. There are some very rich people who are planning to move to Mars or the moon. Some of our politicians assure us there are only twelve years left before life as we know it comes to a screeching halt. But, if we immediately pass a certain law which outlaws cow flatulence and airplanes, among other things, this "loonnnnnnnnnng, drawn-out process of almost imperceptible incremental change," can be stopped on a dime. That doesn't fit with any law of physics I understand.


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There IS no magic solution. C’mon, Kat, you’re an intelligent person. Why do you insist on seeing this so simplistically? You have expressed an almost obsessive fixation on the proposals put forward by one or two politicians but don’t worry, it’s not gaining traction. But hey, at least they are trying something.

Like any other complex, global problem, it requires everyone, every person, every nation, to work together. And everyone. Everyone. Will have to give up some things .... make sacrifices... for the good of the whole. There’s no magic bullet; it’s extremely difficult.

Physics? The physics are there in the weather, in the power of the wind, the heat of the wildfires, the rising of the oceans. No lack of physics, here.


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Oh, and it's the BURPING of ruminant animals, much moreso than their flatulence, that is harming the atmosphere. If you're going to criticize political proposals, at least know what you're talking about. :lol:

But it's not just the cow burps. All agricultural practices have been found to have a variety of effects on the environment. Some of the environmental effects that have been associated with meat production are pollution through fossil fuel usage, effluent waste, and water and land consumption that is disproportionate to the amount of food yield per animal.

From the Guardian newspaper:
Quote:
Prof Tim Benton, at the University of Leeds, said the new work is based on national US data, rather than farm-level studies, and provides a useful overview. “It captures the big picture,” he said, adding that livestock is the key to the sustainability of global agriculture.

The biggest intervention people could make towards reducing their carbon footprints would not be to abandon cars, but to eat significantly less red meat,” Benton said. “Another recent study implies the single biggest intervention to free up calories that could be used to feed people would be not to use grains for beef production in the US.”


Does that mean everyone has to give up eating red meat? No. People have a wide variety of things to choose from if they wish to reduce their carbon footprint. No one is expected to live a spartan existence and give up everything. The idea is to select a few things that work for each individual: driving a low emission vehicle; reduce single-use plastics; reduce energy consumption in the home; grow a vegetable garden; plant trees; encourage your region or community to make a gradual transition from coal to renewable energy and help the regional workforce train for these cleaner energy industries. Lots and lots of things to choose from.


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Well, Agon that is a good question. I see this as an issue of erosion and of retention versus dissipation. Now, we must rely on society as a whole to institute proper engineering goals to keep creeks and rivers along course, to retain soil before these enter the ocean, and to make work so as to increase the arable fields in our own property holdings. This seems optionable to some, but it seems like the only way: to focus on retaining the shorelines (to draw a new line if need be) and increase the total lands that exist on Urantia, along with the great game to decrease the ratio of land to person.

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well the papers mention some sudden climate changes so it's not always some slow evolutionary process...the bronze age collapse was rather quick. and the papers mention the importance of the thin layer of ozone that protects us from deadly radiation:

Quote:
58:2.2 (665.5) The earth’s atmosphere is all but opaque to much of the solar radiation at the extreme ultraviolet end of the spectrum. Most of these short wave lengths are absorbed by a layer of ozone which exists throughout a level about ten miles above the surface of the earth, and which extends spaceward for another ten miles. The ozone permeating this region, at conditions prevailing on the earth’s surface, would make a layer only one tenth of an inch thick; nevertheless, this relatively small and apparently insignificant amount of ozone protects Urantia inhabitants from the excess of these dangerous and destructive ultraviolet radiations present in sunlight. But were this ozone layer just a trifle thicker, you would be deprived of the highly important and health-giving ultraviolet rays which now reach the earth’s surface, and which are ancestral to one of the most essential of your vitamins.


and humans have upset that balance rather quickly with emissions not so long ago.

it really doesn't take any deep study in physics to understand that co2 warms the atmosphere and humans add co2 to the environment...the ice cores and tree rings show the co2 has accelerated drastically since the industrial revolution...go figure!

no doubt the ocean current and jet stream where i live has changed....farmers are adapting best they can at least...papers say we have to adapt in order to progress. i think we should be prepared.


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What do you think this reference means? If the ice caps melt are we going to have another glacial age? Did I read that right?

(702.1) 61:7.11 100,000 years ago, during the retreat of the last glacier, the vast polar ice sheets began to form, and the center of ice accumulation moved considerably northward. And as long as the polar regions continue to be covered with ice, it is hardly possible for another glacial age to occur, regardless of future land elevations or modification of ocean currents.


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Exactly my point above about the atmospheric response to a warming cycle....the opposite one. The north polar ice cap is gone and the south pole is in melt down. Greenland is losing glaciers...full planetary deglaciation is happening now...or so it appears.

Makalu points out that not all cycles and responses are slow and incremental either. Things could get real interesting and, perhaps, suddenly so.

I am certain of our planetary evolution and progress and destiny but I do not predict or expect a smooth or uneventful future for our world. We are told we are shaped and progress by the hammer and anvil and by adversity and vicissitudes and conflict. This is true individually, locally, regionally, nationally, and globally and even universally.

How will we respond to such adversity and suffering? For it is our response to whatever happens, and not what happens, that reveals our spiritual progress and need for additional growth. That's why all things "happen"...the effects of prior causes delivers the circumstances and situations and intersections of decisions and responses by which reality is created and further effected and our response is how we are measured.

Life is an endless loop of lineal cause and effects and all free will choice responses set off new causes for new effects and more and new potentials for actualization. An endless self perpetuating and progressive feedback system that results in a continuous perfecting and creative process.

We tend to repeat errors or make incremental improvements that appears to make history repeat itself but always, or usually, there are some elements of improvement in decisions which results in some progress. I think of it like a slinky toy. Around and round the links may go but every link leads forward if by a very circular route. The links represent the quantity of decisions while the space or distance between the links represents the quality of decisions. Ever notice how far a slinky can stretch and the potential progress by that quality space between the circular links?



:idea: 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:56 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Quote:
What do you think this reference means? If the ice caps melt are we going to have another glacial age? Did I read that right?


no, not necessarily. the polar ice caps could melt without there being another center of accumulation to the south, but as long as they remain they are the center. the north pole was open sea during the ice ages, the glaciers were vast but still a very regional event.


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Things that are said to be "sudden" when viewed from a cosmic timeframe would feel long and drawn out on a human 80-year lifespan timeframe. So it depends on what timeframe one views it from. I agree with Bradly and others that, while climate change has been ongoing for decades (the slow, incremental change part), things could change quite suddenly. That's the point: this is all very unpredictable.

Yes, there has been climate change on this planet before, certainly. But one cannot expect it to occur in exactly the same manner in the future (or now). Too many variables have changed. We have never been in this specific set of conditions before, so all assumptions that things will be as they were are not realistic.


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This reference is amazing. it is all about pressure and density. What are the laws of physics here? Is global warming of the air (gases) contributing to the pressure of continental masses? It seems unlikely. It looks to me as though land masses are continuously sliding down into the sea.

(668.9) 58:5.7 The weight of the oceans is also a factor in the increase of pressure on the sea beds. The lower but comparatively heavier ocean beds, plus the weight of the overlying water, approximate the weight of the higher but much lighter continents. But all continents tend to creep into the oceans. The continental pressure at ocean-bottom levels is about 20,000 pounds to the square inch. That is, this would be the pressure of a continental mass standing 15,000 feet above the ocean floor. The ocean-floor water pressure is only about 5,000 pounds to the square inch. These differential pressures tend to cause the continents to slide toward the ocean beds.


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