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fanofVan wrote:

What a curious post William. It has been said here that environmentalism and resource stewardship and natural beauty and enhanced beauty and abundance are all ideals of all planetary leadership and management. Are you anti-environment then? Perhaps more time in study would lead to less disappointment in the answers to your questions by your fellow students....although I found the responses both accurate and encouraging regarding the question asked.



I'm not anti-environment. I'm just disappointed when emphasis is placed on what not to do or what cannot be done regarding environmentalism. There are of course parts of the book which do encourage an active role in environmentalism as others have highlighted, but stating that we should not have a sense of urgency regarding the environment dampens my faith and enthusiasm. I'm only on paper 39 so I'll leave my final judgement until much later.


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Just remember that what you see posted here are various peoples’ interpretations of isolated parts of the UB limited to a narrow topic. As you read the entire book, you will have the ability to make your own interpretations; and what you believe about what it is saying is what is important for YOUR journey.


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William S. wrote:
fanofVan wrote:

What a curious post William. It has been said here that environmentalism and resource stewardship and natural beauty and enhanced beauty and abundance are all ideals of all planetary leadership and management. Are you anti-environment then? Perhaps more time in study would lead to less disappointment in the answers to your questions by your fellow students....although I found the responses both accurate and encouraging regarding the question asked.



I'm not anti-environment. I'm just disappointed when emphasis is placed on what not to do or what cannot be done regarding environmentalism. There are of course parts of the book which do encourage an active role in environmentalism as others have highlighted, but stating that we should not have a sense of urgency regarding the environment dampens my faith and enthusiasm. I'm only on paper 39 so I'll leave my final judgement until much later.


I understand. I attended the first Earth Day and read Rachel Carson's Silent Spring that same year. The Kaw and Missouri rivers caught on fire the year before. 10 years of agent orange in Nam, the pheasant and quail and eagles and hawks all disappearing. Acid rain killing lakes and rivers and mining poisening fisheries and clear cutting deforestation including the ancient giant sequoia and redwoods over 1000 years old. Yes...many of us know of environmental urgency...and madness.

The UB is certainly not indifferent to beauty, stewardship, and wise applications of the sustainable utilization of resources ...and neither are its readers and believers. Get active, become an activist, chain yourself to a tree or whatever you think right and effective. Who said otherwise?


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William S. wrote:
but stating that we should not have a sense of urgency regarding the environment dampens my faith and enthusiasm.


I may be wrong, but I think the only urgency the Revelation informs us of is the need for religion. I don't think attaching religious fervor to the climate is what they had in mind. It's the right emotion but the wrong target, in my opinion.

(1087.1) 99:1.4 Religion has no new duties to perform, but it is urgently called upon to function as a wise guide and experienced counselor in all of these new and rapidly changing human situations. Society is becoming more mechanical, more compact, more complex, and more critically interdependent. Religion must function to prevent these new and intimate interassociations from becoming mutually retrogressive or even destructive. Religion must act as the cosmic salt which prevents the ferments of progression from destroying the cultural savor of civilization. These new social relations and economic upheavals can result in lasting brotherhood only by the ministry of religion.

It is also written that mankind has an incomplete grasp of science, which tells me that putting all of civilization's eggs in that one basket is not wise. Don't forget that climate predictions are made by computers which calculate with an incomplete set of data points. Think of the Mayan Calendar, a calculated set of data points, and how that turned out.

(1137.2) 103:6.12 Out of his incomplete grasp of science, his faint hold upon religion, and his abortive attempts at metaphysics, man has attempted to construct his formulations of philosophy. And modern man would indeed build a worthy and engaging philosophy of himself and his universe were it not for the breakdown of his all-important and indispensable metaphysical connection between the worlds of matter and spirit, the failure of metaphysics to bridge the morontia gulf between the physical and the spiritual. Mortal man lacks the concept of morontia mind and material; and revelation is the only technique for atoning for this deficiency in the conceptual data which man so urgently needs in order to construct a logical philosophy of the universe and to arrive at a satisfying understanding of his sure and settled place in that universe.

It is my assumption that mankind's sense of urgency comes from a deeper fear of the potential reality of a Doomsday, which is even more deeply rooted in the very human fear of death. The good news of the Revelation is that there is no such thing as a doomsday and death itself is nothing to fear for anyone with faith in a loving God. The only think left to say is to repeat what Jesus said:

(1916.2) 176:3.2 What more shall I say? The downfall of nations, the crash of empires, the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, the end of an age, even the end of the world, what have these things to do with one who believes this gospel, and who has hid his life in the surety of the eternal kingdom? You who are God-knowing and gospel-believing have already received the assurances of eternal life. Since your lives have been lived in the spirit and for the Father, nothing can be of serious concern to you. Kingdom builders, the accredited citizens of the heavenly worlds, are not to be disturbed by temporal upheavals or perturbed by terrestrial cataclysms. What does it matter to you who believe this gospel of the kingdom if nations overturn, the age ends, or all things visible crash, since you know that your life is the gift of the Son, and that it is eternally secure in the Father? Having lived the temporal life by faith and having yielded the fruits of the spirit as the righteousness of loving service for your fellows, you can confidently look forward to the next step in the eternal career with the same survival faith that has carried you through your first and earthly adventure in sonship with God.


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I would certainly agree that social, political, or 'environmental' "urgency" is worthy of its own consideration and is symptomatic of deeper, underlying issues. There is a reason we are taught that the work of the soul is most important and most urgent when compared to these others, for the only true and lasting solutions to all other human and material problems and issues has a religious solution. It is the religionist expressing their religious experience by love of and service to others that leads to all meaningful and lasting reforms, evolution, and social transformation and progress. Environmentalism does not deliver religious progress but religious experience does deliver environmental progress....and all progress over time. True religionists become good citizens...eventually if not sooner. They will do so by their growing obligation to serve others and make choices for the greater good.

This notion of urgency reminds me of the teachings on immaturity and impatience and disappointment and how personal religious experience changes the world two ways....by the aggregation effect of another good citizen's efforts in service...but also and even more importantly, perhaps, is the change in attitude and perspective and perception and how the fruits of the Divine Spirit changes the lens of view with which we 'see' the world itself. It's like the difference is blurry black and white becoming focused cinema color!! Personal religious transformation changes the world radically....and our greater faith experience and truth assurance delivers confidence in the future that is truly in the hands of the Most Highs and Creators after all! Maturity, patience, trust, and perspective does not remove importance in issues and solutions and actions but it does reduce the related anxieties and urgencies and impatience of tadpole immaturities.

Jesus always displayed absolute confidence in the ability and power and ultimate outcomes of the work of the Most Highs, no matter how calamitous the material world's woes and sufferings. And this example is so important for Jesus did not find material problems indifferent or unimportant to just let happen whatever happens. No, not that. He simply had absolute confidence in the rulers and managers and leaders of this world, and all worlds, and always expected progress and results from the ministries of those charged with planetary care. He trusted them as he trusted God for his personal safety and spiritual and eternal future. He did not doubt planetary and material outcomes over time and so the material and local outcomes near at hand were of no great concern either. His personal trust in God's love, power, plan, purpose, and care delivered him from doubt, anxiety, fear....and any material or social or political urgencies!

1. Time and Eternity

118:1.1 (1295.1) It is helpful to man’s cosmic orientation to attain all possible comprehension of Deity’s relation to the cosmos. While absolute Deity is eternal in nature, the Gods are related to time as an experience in eternity. In the evolutionary universes eternity is temporal everlastingness—the everlasting now.

118:1.2 (1295.2) The personality of the mortal creature may eternalize by self-identification with the indwelling spirit through the technique of choosing to do the will of the Father. Such a consecration of will is tantamount to the realization of eternity-reality of purpose. This means that the purpose of the creature has become fixed with regard to the succession of moments; stated otherwise, that the succession of moments will witness no change in creature purpose. A million or a billion moments makes no difference. Number has ceased to have meaning with regard to the creature’s purpose. Thus does creature choice plus God’s choice eventuate in the eternal realities of the never-ending union of the spirit of God and the nature of man in the everlasting service of the children of God and of their Paradise Father.

118:1.3 (1295.3) There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

118:1.4 (1295.4) Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

118:1.5 (1295.5) In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.

118:1.6 (1295.6) Patience is exercised by those mortals whose time units are short; true maturity transcends patience by a forbearance born of real understanding.

118:1.7 (1295.7) To become mature is to live more intensely in the present, at the same time escaping from the limitations of the present. The plans of maturity, founded on past experience, are coming into being in the present in such manner as to enhance the values of the future.

118:1.8 (1295.8) The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present—the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.

Patience and perspective and trust and maturity do not make issues like environmentalism less important or excuse the religionist from duty and obligation to serve and to act for the greater good....but it does remove the anxiety and impatience and urgency associated with the immature perspective. Or so we are taught and so I have found.

The Serenity Prayer comes to mind: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference."



8)


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It’s curious that here in assumed “progressive” California, in the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas how environmental (supposed) management by well meaning bureaucrats has unfolded.
Years ago Smoky the Bear mentality was the way to go, we even had a song that captured Smokies Forrest management concept and how as individuals we should be responsible when living in or visiting this wilderness.
The unintended consequences were massive buildup of dead vegetation and underbrush and when lightning struck what would have been a natural self controlling and beneficial Forrest fire became a devistating Forrest fire that completely destroyed tens of thousands of acres of Forrest completely followed by massive soil erosion in the following wet season.
Now, in this day and age more people live up here and last year there were so many deviststing Forrest fires that entire communities were destroyed and it’s not coincidental but one community was “Paradise”.
This just about bankrupted insurance companies and many people living up here had their fire insurance cancelled.
Now all of the well meaning bureaucrats are singing a different tune. Large swaths of land are being bulldozed to create fire breaks and land owners are overzealously clearing their land of everything that they think may contribute to fires.
When I first moved here years ago I had a friend help with clearing a building site and his family lived here since before the gold rush. Stories handed down and evidence shown me “burn scars on very old oak trees” about how the Indians and how they would deliberately toarch the land in the late fall just before the rains came. It cleared rig posion oak, manzanita, chaparral, and grasses and other dead wood while maintaining healthy trees.
Seems the Indians really understood nature and our politicians ignored these people.
Anyway, thought it was interesting enough to post.
For what it’s eorth.
And now these same bureaucrats want people to get behind their ravings and supposed new ideas about environmental management. I don’t think so.
I’ll add this
Land clearing now, no matter how it’s done or how wise the method, because of laws that bureaucrats have created, the work is all done mechanically. Burning much of the fossil fuels that environmentalists say should not be burnt but they don’t seem to be concerned about it.
And I’ll add even more:
The same sort of self serving bureaucrats now tell us that we will all die in 12 years if we fail to elect them into office so that they can implement their new progressive ideas oabut environmental management.
I wouldn’t let myself get too hyped up because if their rhetoric.


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Yes indeed...got to watch those do-gooder inclinations and not make choices which only create new problems or make the original ones worse. Here in the midwest, we have the levee system. Removed ox-bows, straightening and dredging river channels deeper and adding dams and levees. Result? Loss of wetlands and bogs and swamps and cane breaks and miles wide flood plains which spread and slow and hold flood waters (all so called solutions highly planned and highly engineered), turned into flash flood factories with incredible and destructive currents unknown prior to the environmental "solution ".

When standing up on the Mississippi River levee at the edge of that massive torrent and looking down upon the rooftops of New Orleans spread out below, you have to wonder what the heck are we doing here?

Good intentions are not always educated or wise in their execution. Evolution is a learning and response process of progress. We must often patiently await for best solutions to problems and the problems we cause as humans deliver science and solutions that help move us forward in new and important ways in new directions. We are told: "Evolution may be slow but it is unerringly effective."

There is a reader here who preaches against species extinction, a form of popular environmentalism today. Save all species at all costs and social disruptions. What a short sighted and unwise and illogical position. There would be no mammals or people at all if the forces and process of evolution did not include species extinction...still dinosaurs though!

Stop evolution? Resist life's impulses to adapt and perfect snd compete and survive? The Sahara was, not long ago, a giant grassland. Would we today oppose and fight against desertification? Urgent environmentalism is an interesting issue that reflects many economic, social, and political aspects of our planetary evolution and progress.

Our environment and atmosphere and climate is a responsive organism and dynamic engine of adjustment to cycles of ever changing inputs from 3 sources...internal to the planet, the surface of the planet, and radiation/gravitational off-planet causes of effects and responses to those inputs. Are we helping or hurting and do we really know the difference?


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no sophist wrote:
The same sort of self serving bureaucrats now tell us that we will all die in 12 years if we fail to elect them into office so that they can implement their new progressive ideas oabut environmental management.
I wouldn’t let myself get too hyped up because if their rhetoric.


The AI, and the risk analysis, of civil beaurocrats, has led to monocultures: have we increased the yield of the land. Our American Leaders allowed to deny the existence of world climate change, even when our government has well-fueled instutitions such as HAARP and cloud generation. The responsibility of environmental stewardship falls on parents, and I see that children are depressed, emotionally disturbed, asthmatic at higher incidence, because this generational problem has not been solved adequately.

In tUB there is little instruction to explain how to cure these issues that threaten our population! But we know that the highest calling of man in society is that of farmer, and thus we should always look at productivity as what man may reap from the land, as renewable resources. Jesus says that we are seeds of time in the likeness of mortal flesh, and when he explains the nature of investment, he implies that one's talents should increase. In other words, in the philosophy of Jesus, I see currency not in terms of coinage but in terms of resources that can "be fruitful and multiply".

This is in the sense of Japanese feudalism, the intention of the daimyo was always to regard the total array of gifts, that can bless the land. The strategy of implantation, and maintenance, was based on the principle "how do I make the best use out of the lands I have been given?" If we look mathematically, over the long course, a person has better profit potential investing in trees on his land, than in extracting the catalogue of world's history in the form of liquid/gas petrol. Then there is the value of loyalty: that if you teach children to love the same things that you love to do, they will be happier and more enthusiastic, less doubtful more zealous, when it comes time to apply their own instructions as adults.

The saga about the Babylonian culture from tUB, cities built upon their own refuse, is totally difference from the plastics society that we live in today. When the percentage of % plastics mass in a product, increases above 20% per product, then you see this symptom in society: "exterior Landfills", the great beacons of society's aggregate self-repression. We need to look at waste management, return to biodegradable consummables, and anything that is not regarded as bioconsummable should be decommissioned as preferred production items. Since the block chain became the modus of accountants in the fourth industrial estate, but we need to look at the waste generated by every process along that chain, and to demand from a personal level, an intrinsic level, instead of recyclable materials, durable reusable materials.

With all this accretion, I nevertheless believe that preservation of biodiversity is more important than the total wastes of mankind. But if we could embrace the scattology, look at our own feces as an asset rather than a liability. In the modern day, a person will use mortar and pestle, or a disposable template, to mix chemicals like concrete. In the ancient times, I assume that such men would use their own mouths to create pastes, spitting, as it were, mortar into the joints of their carpentry, a man as a sufficient laboratory of itself. But in the modern, it almost seems like an obligation, to buy extra packages, extraneous tools, and you know just think about the input cost of production energy involved in each item you are buying a product.

But people become overcontented, when nationally, there is subsidy that helps corporation pay for some of these input-energy costs, which create a discounted item that appears in the marketplace, and as consummers select such products, they see the price as a reflection of the cost, and do not notice the subsidy that generated such conflation. Hence, we are taught to worry less about it.

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I don't know if I like this community very much now...


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William S. wrote:
I don't know if I like this community very much now...


Why so?


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fanofVan wrote:
William S. wrote:
I don't know if I like this community very much now...


Why so?


Because 2 of the 3 posts before this one discussed what not to do instead of what can and must be done regarding environmentalism. Without even quoting the UB.

My father spent most of his life finding solutions to protect rain forests here in Indonesia. He has fought against rain forest clearing (both logging and burning) for palm oil plantations and agriculture but at the same time promoted alternative solutions for the livelihood of the people.


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The eastern Japanese feudal system, is important because the daimyo had vowed to increase the quality of life for all existing beings within the land he was given to tend. I know that I have supported the destruction of Indonesian rainforests in my wanton consumer habits. I see that in america, the hardwood from the 1920's construction lasts longer than fields of new growth harvests that given to the regular local markets at Home Depot. When you look at the continuation of quality, in the succession of the types of advancement for mankind, horticulturally or culturally, well maybe I comprehend what you are saying, but I am sad and regretful to admit this that I perpetuating the loss of environmental assets, and seek to restore the quality of lumbers, through better selection of cultivation, better diversity per acre, and increased mass and overall fertility of the soils.

81:3.3-4 About twelve thousand years ago the era of the independent cities was dawning. And these primitive trading and manufacturing cities were always surrounded by zones of agriculture and cattle raising. While it is true that industry was promoted by the elevation of the standards of living, you should have no misconception regarding the refinements of early urban life. The early races were not overly neat and clean, and the average primitive community rose from one to two feet every twenty-five years as the result of the mere accumulation of dirt and trash. Certain of these olden cities also rose above the surrounding ground very quickly because their unbaked mud huts were short-lived, and it was the custom to build new dwellings directly on top of the ruins of the old.
The widespread use of metals was a feature of this era of the early industrial and trading cities. You have already found a bronze culture in Turkestan dating before 9000 B.C., and the Andites early learned to work in iron, gold, and copper, as well. But conditions were very different away from the more advanced centers of civilization. There were no distinct periods, such as the Stone, Bronze, and Iron Ages; all three existed at the same time in different localities.

I feel that people like Charles Eisenstein have raised the right points, but have not delivered proper methods that I should employ in achieving their goals. In other words, he set the benchmark for landowners to follow, but his standard assumes that one must already have become an expert in order to do that work (of his policy of carbon sequestration, which is remarkably similar to the organic increase of ancient cities). I think that as a scientific variable, "the rise or sink of land", due to the influence of mankind, even neighbourhoods, is important to observe. Such rise is not just as historical observation from tUB, but an actual demand/goal from modern scientists, to see increase of biomass on one's property.


But I would pray ask for you to explain a little more about the means and actual recommendations, that your father has taught others, that you remember? Even if I do perpetuate the total loss of environmental resources via consumption habits, but I want to learn better how I may add back.

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Last edited by SEla_Kelly on Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:25 am +0000, edited 4 times in total.

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I fear you misunderstood my post and no sophist too. No one has suggested that deforestation or strip mining or chemicalization of agriculture and manufacturing or polution or land fill or disposable consumerism or worker exposure to danger, etc. are good or nothing should be done about them.

You seem very quick to judge...and miscalculate. Environmental stewardship is keenly important. No one has said otherwise. Your father might be wise enough to know that more science and less emotionalism would serve environmentalism better. Neither my example of levy construction nor no sophist on fire prevention suggested doing nothing.

Both suggest experience and wisdom are important to manage outcomes.


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The Urantia book does not give us instructions for environmental management but reading between the lines there is a clear path to just that.
Think about all of the derivatives of Truth, Beauty and Goodness.
Try Fact, Meaning and Value.
Facts can only come from true science. Do we have true science? Are meanings and values part of today’s secular scientific community? When some politician states the environment will collapse in 12 years are they in possession of true scientific facts, a corresponding philosophy and religious quest for values associated with these meaningful facts?
Also there is much about self mastery and altruistic service.
The book addresses the foundations that must be there in order to be effective Stewart’s of our planet.
I like paper 55 and 56 that gets into unity.
Of the three actualities - spirit, matter and mind, all are absolutely separate. The one thing that unifies is mind.
Think about this - we touch something, does our fingers feel what we are touching? Does our brain? No, fingers and brain are matter and matter cannot feel, it is our mind that feels and the quality of the feeling depends on the quality of the mind. Our free will choice can corrupt or enhance this feeling, it is a double edged sword.
How we interact with our environment and spirit is the same. Quality mind = quality perception, corrupted mind = corrupted perception.
Who works on self mastery?
Don’t you think this should come before we try to manage our very complex environment?


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Thanks no sophist. I created this post while you were creating yours, and I add it in agreement:

Quote:
4:2.8 And nature is marred, her beautiful face is scarred, her features are seared, by the rebellion, the misconduct, the misthinking of the myriads of creatures who are a part of nature, but who have contributed to her disfigurement in time.


Environmentalism, in my opinion, is - or should be - a function of the brotherhood of all mankind. We all share this one home, and when one suffers, we all suffer to some degree. Climate change aside, the plundering of earth's resources by industrialists for profit is something that we are all now seeing can have disastrous effects on all of us. For example, deforestation, as William has pointed out. Clear cutting rainforests is like tearing out the planet's lungs that supply oxygen, and further increase the degradation of our common home. This is an attitude that must be confronted, whether as regard logging, but also the continuation of pulling fossil fuels out of the earth when we now have the technology for cleaner forms of energy.

The one thing stopping that march toward better energy sources is the struggle between the petrochemical interests and the right of people to live a life that is not polluted by plastics, oil, and gasoline fumes. When we know better, we might want to do better. Plastics alone are a monumental mess that is threatening our oceans and its life.

But climate change as a topic is having far-reaching effects, too. I just heard an NPR piece today about increased coastal flooding and the dilemma that people face when considering whether they should rebuild or just scrap their home and let nature take its course.

As Urantia Book students, we might want to discuss what stewardship means. Managing wealth means more than just managing money. Each of us are stewards of our little piece of the planet. How are we doing in that regard? Are we "misthinking" creatures? Just because the revelation does not say a lot in this regard, we might be able to extrapolate a position that mandates us to be better stewards of what we've been given. Conspicuous consumption does not seem to me to be an ideal with much value.


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