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From the quotes MaryJo has shared, especially the need to maintain the profit motive in spite of greed, further highlights the City of Chicago during the 1930's, perhaps 1933-1954, as a technical component of America's incredible power to mobilise communities in terms of solidarity, industry, and cooperation.

Bradley: greed as a result of materialism? I think maybe it could be a result of the adaptive forces, the adjutant mind spirits, reaching a certain eschalon within the human psyche, and then "falling back down", retrograde activity of the human intellect which creates false attributions and associations based on the limited capacity of individual awareness (choosing to fixate on a set of known ends, and temporary severing consideration for future unknown possibilities.) I am using imagery to explain my theory, that when such retrograde mindal activity, the adjutant mind spirits might dissipate, drawing nearer to the human psyche when the human increases focus on the doing of God's will, and fleeing from minds that become locked into narrow intents.

I think from a Freudian perspective, it is important to denote the applicable theory of interactive adjutant spirits, to theorise or visualise it, how these spirits find the impersonal crescendo and decrescendo (or syncopation and dissipation) of mindal activities based on adaptation to creature-intent, or "the creature's will to survive". so that Children might one day identify these circuits, can notice the patterns within their mind observationally at least. (Hey that is an important cultural element of the Urantia Foundation too: its leader being a pupil of Freud and thus introducing the new science of Psychiatry to America).

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maryjo606 wrote:
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But the impact of greed is great, and especially a generation of people younger than I realise that the cost of Greed has been to commoditize the very foods populations consume, and to go to obsurd lengths to provide these goods in quantity, which has depleted our arable lands and much of our petrol resources economically. In taking wheat and corn from our fields to our city marketplaces, we have left the future generations in a very perillous position, seeing wealth in a coinage and not an endowment from the universe.


When I think of greed, I think of the worst aspects of capitalism. The points you make here about the food industry are concerning to me, also. We sure do have some terrible examples of poor stewardship there - both misuse of the land and of manipulation of Nature for profit. But I do think that there are some companies that are learning a better way - that they can have profit AND serve people - without greed.

In the ideal "Urantian" culture of true brotherhood, I would hope that the following would be considered:

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71:6.1 Present-day profit-motivated economics is doomed unless profit motives can be augmented by service motives. Ruthless competition based on narrow-minded self-interest is ultimately destructive of even those things which it seeks to maintain. Exclusive and self-serving profit motivation is incompatible with Christian ideals—much more incompatible with the teachings of Jesus.

71:6.2 In economics, profit motivation is to service motivation what fear is to love in religion. But the profit motive must not be suddenly destroyed or removed; it keeps many otherwise slothful mortals hard at work. It is not necessary, however, that this social energy arouser be forever selfish in its objectives.

71:6.3 The profit motive of economic activities is altogether base and wholly unworthy of an advanced order of society; nevertheless, it is an indispensable factor throughout the earlier phases of civilization. Profit motivation must not be taken away from men until they have firmly possessed themselves of superior types of nonprofit motives for economic striving and social serving—the transcendent urges of superlative wisdom, intriguing brotherhood, and excellency of spiritual attainment.


"Depletion" is an interesting concept...a belief in shortages and zero-sum economics that defies reality and basic economic theories and outcomes. Money, prosperity, wealth, etc. is no more limited than is the resource of love itself. It is this shortage mentality that actually is the very source of greed. The belief that there is only so much of something drives the false needs of hoarders and profiteers...both groups driven by the concept of shortage and limited resources as a motive for behaviors.

Oil is given by Stephen as an example. An excellent choice!!! For today there is more oil available and oil reserves than any time in history!! Despite the extraction of billions of barrels of the stuff the past century +, never has there been so much oil as today! How so?? Progress. Evolution. Technology. Science! Illogical you say? Not at all. There is more oil today because we can find more oil and we can extract oil from places we could never find or reach before. We will never run out of oil before we evolve beyond oil and all carbon sources for energy in the coming centuries. In the meantime, science delivers technologies to deliver carbon based energy far more efficiently and far cleaner than any other time. The gains in efficiency alone are helping to create oil surpluses and depressed prices.

This illustrates the problem of people here ranting and raving about politics and economics who really know so very little about that which they rant and rave about. Rather than see with context and perspective and objectivity and true understanding and education and expertise, they merely vocalize limited, biased, prejudiced opinions. Global energy has turned a significant corner...about 20 years ago!! We now have giant buildings which create all their own heating and cooling and electricity as well as homes. Renewable and clean energies are the fastest growing industries in the world today creating a growing demand for employees and manufacturing....clean and green manufacturing. China is spending more than any other country on renewable energy. Why? The consequences of dirty carbon dependence. Necessity is still the mother of invention (and change)!

Agriculture is apparently another blind spot for some of us. 200 years ago it required over 80% of the world's population to feed 100% while many starved due to local shortages and floods, droughts, plant disease, etc. Today only 10% of us feeds the 100%. Today, every day, enough food is thrown away by growers, stores, restaurants, and households to feed the world! Our waste is sufficient to feed us all! This is the agricultural reality that is so reviled here by some. It is not the producers of food that are greedy...it is the processing and distribution system. It is also the capital/banking system and the chemical and seed providers and equipment makers. Not the growers. But like the consequences of dirty, carbon based energy, Western (and it is primarily a Western saga - again a point of blind bias by the whiners) agriculture is also responding with regulations and profit based rewards for organic ag, intensive/micro farming, sustainable ag, low water ag, local food to table industry development and demand, increased variety and nutrition, etc. which is actually improving the foods available to more and more people.

There are also many people and nonprofit companies dedicated to food delivery to anywhere anytime people are in need no matter the cause of that need. Food distribution disparity and food as a weapon do still exist and it is shameful. But to believe or say that agriculture is a greed based system is to demonstrate a significant ignorance of reality. Agriculture is one of the most amazing and important economic, social, and industrial transformations in our planet's history. It will be one of the easiest to transition to a service based model I think. Energy will take longer.

Greed has consequences. Everyone know this. Those consequences will deliver change and progress....it always does so. So those who become so fixated on the problems of our world tend to become blind to the developing solutions already at hand and so obviously working to move us all forward toward and into our inevitable future. Most people are blinded to that reality of an actual planetary destiny. The UB community and culture should CERTAINLY be able to identify and be encouraged by all the obvious changes all around us that give obvious evidence and proof of the teachings we share here together...at least so for those who actually believe the claims and teachings found in the Papers.

There are so many signs and proofs of epochal progress and evolutionary success on our world. We are told the UB itself has been given due to our progress and readiness and anticipated blossoming by the flower buds already on the branches of time. For example, every decade of the past 7 has seen a reduction in the rate per 1000 of violence of every kind. Each of those decades has also seen an increase per capita of free will cash donations and volunteer service time donated by individuals and by governments on behalf of others. Every decade has seen an increase in public awareness by communications technology of disaster victims and a corresponding increase in disaster relief and long term aid for victims. Every decade has experienced more and more people migrating to other countries and attending school in other countries and becoming bi, even multi-lingual. Corporations are becoming multi-national and trade and borders are more open and co-dependence and inter-dependence globally and by region have gone from zero to extensive and completely normal.

The Americas are a great example...from Chile to Canada, the amount of food, raw materials, manufactured goods, and services flowing freely over borders increases every year and make us all richer and more stable and more agreeable!! The world changes. It evolves. Its potential and its reality are so much greater than the whiners and complainers and the blamers would have us believe. They preach failure and politics, while the world races forward into its destiny. But the blind do not see it and they are so intent to share their blindness and prejudice with the rest of us...as if they actually knew anything at all about what they obviously do not.

No UB community should be subjected to such malarkey IMO. And certainly should not swallow this camel! Just sayin'.....

8)

81:6.6 2. Capital goods. Culture is never developed under conditions of poverty; leisure is essential to the progress of civilization. Individual character of moral and spiritual value may be acquired in the absence of material wealth, but a cultural civilization is only derived from those conditions of material prosperity which foster leisure combined with ambition.

81:6.20 7. Effectiveness of mechanical devices. The progress of civilization is directly related to the development and possession of tools, machines, and channels of distribution. Improved tools, ingenious and efficient machines, determine the survival of contending groups in the arena of advancing civilization.

81:6.21 In the early days the only energy applied to land cultivation was man power. It was a long struggle to substitute oxen for men since this threw men out of employment. Latterly, machines have begun to displace men, and every such advance is directly contributory to the progress of society because it liberates man power for the accomplishment of more valuable tasks.

81:6.22 Science guided by wisdom, may become man's great social liberator. A mechanical age can prove disastrous only to a nation whose intellectual level is too low to discover those wise methods and sound techniques for successfully adjusting to the transition difficulties arising from the sudden loss of employment by large numbers consequent upon the too rapid invention of new types of laborsaving machinery.

81:6.29 10. Co-ordination of specialists. Civilization has been enormously advanced by the early division of labor and by its later corollary of specialization. Civilization is now dependent on the effective co-ordination of specialists. As society expands, some method of drawing together the various specialists must be found.

81:6.30 Social, artistic, technical, and industrial specialists will continue to multiply and increase in skill and dexterity. And this diversification of ability and dissimilarity of employment will eventually weaken and disintegrate human society if effective means of co-ordination and co-operation are not developed. But the intelligence which is capable of such inventiveness and such specialization should be wholly competent to devise adequate methods of control and adjustment for all problems resulting from the rapid growth of invention and the accelerated pace of cultural expansion.

81:6.44 This is the gist of the long, long struggle of the peoples of earth to establish civilization since the age of Adam. Present-day culture is the net result of this strenuous evolution. Before the discovery of printing, progress was relatively slow since one generation could not so rapidly benefit from the achievements of its predecessors. But now human society is plunging forward under the force of the accumulated momentum of all the ages through which civilization has struggled.


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri May 10, 2019 8:19 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
From the quotes MaryJo has shared, especially the need to maintain the profit motive in spite of greed, further highlights the City of Chicago during the 1930's, perhaps 1933-1954, as a technical component of America's incredible power to mobilise communities in terms of solidarity, industry, and cooperation.

Bradley: greed as a result of materialism? I think maybe it could be a result of the adaptive forces, the adjutant mind spirits, reaching a certain eschalon within the human psyche, and then "falling back down", retrograde activity of the human intellect which creates false attributions and associations based on the limited capacity of individual awareness (choosing to fixate on a set of known ends, and temporary severing consideration for future unknown possibilities.) I am using imagery to explain my theory, that when such retrograde mindal activity, the adjutant mind spirits might dissipate, drawing nearer to the human psyche when the human increases focus on the doing of God's will, and fleeing from minds that become locked into narrow intents.

I think from a Freudian perspective, it is important to denote the applicable theory of interactive adjutant spirits, to theorise or visualise it, how these spirits find the impersonal crescendo and decrescendo (or syncopation and dissipation) of mindal activities based on adaptation to creature-intent, or "the creature's will to survive". so that Children might one day identify these circuits, can notice the patterns within their mind observationally at least. (Hey that is an important cultural element of the Urantia Foundation too: its leader being a pupil of Freud and thus introducing the new science of Psychiatry to America).


Baloney.

Greed is a natural and progressive element of human and social evolution....according to the UB. It is not retrograde at all. It is progressive!!

Slavery is progressive - it ends cannibalism and begins the age of leisure and city building. Looking backward into time, one might claim slavery to be a great evil (and it is) but isn't evolution the process of replacing greater evil/error with lesser evil/error? To learn by consequence and repercussion to keep improving and progressing?

69:8.6 Slavery was an indispensable link in the chain of human civilization. It was the bridge over which society passed from chaos and indolence to order and civilized activities; it compelled backward and lazy peoples to work and thus provide wealth and leisure for the social advancement of their superiors.

69:8.7 The institution of slavery compelled man to invent the regulative mechanism of primitive society; it gave origin to the beginnings of government. Slavery demands strong regulation and during the European Middle Ages virtually disappeared because the feudal lords could not control the slaves. The backward tribes of ancient times, like the native Australians of today, never had slaves.

69:8.8 True, slavery was oppressive, but it was in the schools of oppression that man learned industry. Eventually the slaves shared the blessings of a higher society which they had so unwillingly helped create. Slavery creates an organization of culture and social achievement but soon insidiously attacks society internally as the gravest of all destructive social maladies.

69:8.9 Modern mechanical invention rendered the slave obsolete. Slavery, like polygamy, is passing because it does not pay. But it has always proved disastrous suddenly to liberate great numbers of slaves; less trouble ensues when they are gradually emancipated.

And why, still and again, are we to discuss your "theory" of anything at all Stephen?? I'd much rather consider the facts and truth presented in the UB...which is the actual reason we are gathered here. The UB is exhaustive and explicit as to the nature of greed Stephen...it is no mystery needing solution or theoretical consideration. Would you like to study greed or just invent stuff that is quite fictional and irrelevant - speaking of "narrow intents"? I hope and would rather that any and all leaders of the UB movement would be students of the Revelation and the Master, not Freud. We are told that psychology is simply the study of someone else's religion.

103:6.1 Theology is the study of the actions and reactions of the human spirit; it can never become a science since it must always be combined more or less with psychology in its personal expression and with philosophy in its systematic portrayal. Theology is always the study of your religion; the study of another's religion is psychology.

I am interested in some text which might support the idea that the influence of the adjutants might "dissipate" and more examples and specifics of "retrograde mindal activity"....what is that?

We certainly seem to have taken a hard turn away from William's original question.

I find wiffinzebe's post so clearly important...no UB community of believers will be consumed by blame, anxiety, disappointment, fear, impatience, and blindness I do not think. Idealism, hope, confidence, aspiration, ambition, cooperation, innovation, group coordination, and a sense of certainty of outcome and destiny would surely abide among any such a group of any size of UB believers. Or so I would hope and so I have been privileged to witness and share.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri May 10, 2019 10:32 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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But what do you think Bradley, Oil/Brent Petrol is no longer considered solely as a fuel, but rapidly has become the "product of choice" in manufacturing, due to its malleability, versatility, and close chemical composition to expandable resources such as wood and diatomaceous matter. My question is: does the gradual "phasing out" of input-resources such as cotton used in manufacturing, in favour of crude as an input "of choice" or preference, represent an adaptation of the industrial practices by mankind and civilisation, or a retrogression?

I know people say that recycling is great, but to me this is a total myth, a false-promise of the post-modern conflation capitalism. The purity of a resource is diminished when it falls into the consumer's hands. The dirt and other inevitable things accrete on the total mass of a product-to-be-returned-to-the-manufacturers. There is a cost to clean, to transport the product back to an incinerator in order to reclaim the crude substance. And I think that the energy consumption necessary to reclaim such substance is too high: where is the milk-man and the crate with the glass bottles anymore? Perhaps there are secondary issues of trauma created by "the immediate satisfaction of economic demand", children maybe too emotionally unstable to use glass products, or parents/educators unwilling to provide this, a lack of standardization in the shape and durability of packaging, all leading to an alarming acceleration in the post-consumer waste % within the measurable or financial economy.

What would those manufacturers of you know plastic dust-pans think, if they were to hold themselves responsible for the total waste due to human activities, post-sale?

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Which and what is it that requires and is the result of more science and technology and which is the most available resource requiring the least amount of human and capital inputs and cost to create and deliver? Profit delivers efficiency and is the device of natural selection in all things economic Stephen. Nothing theoretical about it. Economics are purely practical and responsive - an eloquent form of expression of human evolution. As presented in the UB...to those who read it....and for those who believe it.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
But what do you think Bradley, Oil/Brent Petrol is no longer considered solely as a fuel, but rapidly has become the "product of choice" in manufacturing, due to its malleability, versatility, and close chemical composition to expandable resources such as wood and diatomaceous matter. My question is: does the gradual "phasing out" of input-resources such as cotton used in manufacturing, in favour of crude as an input "of choice" or preference, represent an adaptation of the industrial practices by mankind and civilisation, or a retrogression?

I know people say that recycling is great, but to me this is a total myth, a false-promise of the post-modern conflation capitalism. The purity of a resource is diminished when it falls into the consumer's hands. The dirt and other inevitable things accrete on the total mass of a product-to-be-returned-to-the-manufacturers. There is a cost to clean, to transport the product back to an incinerator in order to reclaim the crude substance. And I think that the energy consumption necessary to reclaim such substance is too high: where is the milk-man and the crate with the glass bottles anymore? Perhaps there are secondary issues of trauma created by "the immediate satisfaction of economic demand", children maybe too emotionally unstable to use glass products, or parents/educators unwilling to provide this, a lack of standardization in the shape and durability of packaging, all leading to an alarming acceleration in the post-consumer waste % within the measurable or financial economy.

What would those manufacturers of you know plastic dust-pans think, if they were to hold themselves responsible for the total waste due to human activities, post-sale?


And again and still....another topic is hijacked by the irrelevancy of a preacher whose prognostication and pontifications are completely irrelevant...and uninformed opinions offering no insight or value...to anything at all. This should not be pointed out? I suppose not. We should all simply endure it in silence with clenched jaw? Sigh...…

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I think the overuse of petrol in manufacturing represents a retrogression of the economy. And the profits and efficiency increase you espouse are not factually verifiable.
92:3.7 But while calling attention to the fact that religion was essential to the development and preservation of civilization, it should be recorded that natural religion has also done much to cripple and handicap the very civilization which it otherwise fostered and maintained. Religion has hampered industrial activities and economic development; it has been wasteful of labor and has squandered capital; it has not always been helpful to the family; it has not adequately fostered peace and good will; it has sometimes neglected education and retarded science; it has unduly impoverished life for the pretended enrichment of death.

This quote expresses what I meant culturally: that it was the intent of both the Authors and the Urantia Foundation, during its onset, to transform religion into something profitable to the human condition. Culturally, that is at least how I approach the world after completing my own religious upbringing and scholarship of the UP's.

Maybe Americans have a culture of praising adaptation, advancement, and despising retrogression. And over the past 70 years, we are so afraid of retrogression, so accepting of "business as usual" (despite selective subsidy), that in effect people are tuning into commentators who merely assuage their real concerns. Maybe our culture is so afraid to hear the truth, you know, that our people actually prefer assuagement to counsel :-& ? You want to say that a manufacturing sector dominated by the easy access to petrol, the "mad grab" for its last basins, and considering fewer and fewer "potential inputs" is profitable :-s ? Let me dredge and affix some of that total national debt that may be attributable to the ventures you are mentioning objectively, and see how unprofitable how detrimental machine-made petrolproducts have become to the world and especially society?

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Interesting answers given so far. Skipping all the back and forth with Kelly (sorry about that), If I can summarize the answers (correct me if I misunderstood):

fanofVan (in brief summary): UB readers are optimistic and positive thinking people based on the teachings of the UB.

maryjo606: Urantia is not ready just yet for the real culture to come because it is the ultimate culture that is the Kingdom of God; a culture free of greed and hence UB readers are Utopians.

wiffinzebe: UB readers are free from fear of progress and by extension fear of death because it is considered progress. UB readers will have absolute equality of the sexes. UB readers will frown upon superstitions that holds society back and especially frown upon people who claim they have special gifts (giving them the "first seats in the kingdom")

alwilliams767: The culture is not a culture of social norms but a new way of understanding life's meaning, a new way of treating fellow humans and how to live. And because of there is no established norms yet, it is we who have the opportunity to create that culture.

I'm liking all of this very much. There is so much opportunity and potential of building the ideal society and we get to do it!


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SEla_Kelly:

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But what do you think Bradley, Oil/Brent Petrol is no longer considered solely as a fuel, but rapidly has become the "product of choice" in manufacturing, due to its malleability, versatility, and close chemical composition to expandable resources such as wood and diatomaceous matter. My question is: does the gradual "phasing out" of input-resources such as cotton used in manufacturing, in favour of crude as an input "of choice" or preference, represent an adaptation of the industrial practices by mankind and civilisation, or a retrogression?

I know people say that recycling is great, but to me this is a total myth, a false-promise of the post-modern conflation capitalism. The purity of a resource is diminished when it falls into the consumer's hands. The dirt and other inevitable things accrete on the total mass of a product-to-be-returned-to-the-manufacturers. There is a cost to clean, to transport the product back to an incinerator in order to reclaim the crude substance. And I think that the energy consumption necessary to reclaim such substance is too high: where is the milk-man and the crate with the glass bottles anymore? Perhaps there are secondary issues of trauma created by "the immediate satisfaction of economic demand", children maybe too emotionally unstable to use glass products, or parents/educators unwilling to provide this, a lack of standardization in the shape and durability of packaging, all leading to an alarming acceleration in the post-consumer waste % within the measurable or financial economy.

What would those manufacturers of you know plastic dust-pans think, if they were to hold themselves responsible for the total waste due to human activities, post-sale?


This sidetrack is not pertinent to the discussion at hand. And even the originator of the topic says:

Quote:
Interesting answers given so far. Skipping all the back and forth with Kelly (sorry about that)


Why does he say that? Because it is not relevant!

When you introduce side-topics to the one at hand, it is confusing and off-putting to others, some of whom feel compelled to counter every one of your posts. Can you understand what I am saying here, SEla_Kelly? Please stick to the topic at hand, and remember it is someone else's topic - not yours. Try to fit into the discussion as it pertains to the original topic, and nothing else...unless you want to start your own thread.

MaryJo


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William S. wrote:
Interesting answers given so far. Skipping all the back and forth with Kelly (sorry about that), If I can summarize the answers (correct me if I misunderstood):

fanofVan (in brief summary): UB readers are optimistic and positive thinking people based on the teachings of the UB.

maryjo606: Urantia is not ready just yet for the real culture to come because it is the ultimate culture that is the Kingdom of God; a culture free of greed and hence UB readers are Utopians.

wiffinzebe: UB readers are free from fear of progress and by extension fear of death because it is considered progress. UB readers will have absolute equality of the sexes. UB readers will frown upon superstitions that holds society back and especially frown upon people who claim they have special gifts (giving them the "first seats in the kingdom")

alwilliams767: The culture is not a culture of social norms but a new way of understanding life's meaning, a new way of treating fellow humans and how to live. And because of there is no established norms yet, it is we who have the opportunity to create that culture.

I'm liking all of this very much. There is so much opportunity and potential of building the ideal society and we get to do it!


I am uncertain of the precision of the restatements....however, I find every point to be positive and true and hopeful and idealistic. We are taught that the entire world will eventually share a singular perspective of reality, philosophy for living, and religion. Enlightenment itself delivers "its own culture". The era of Light and Life will certainly be a time of sublime agreement and cooperation and unity.

Paper 55 The Spheres of Light and Life give so many wondrous promises for our world. What a culture to contemplate. A culture each believer can create within and share with others even today!! The one may achieve L&L sooner than the group which can attain it before the entire world does so...it is a model and ideal for each of us right now! When Jesus said the Kingdom is at hand, he meant right NOW and right HERE for those who can see and hear and believe.

But for those of us who will not live to see planetary L&L (all of us!), the Mansion Worlds take us through those stages of culture upon our resurrection too. Just as certain as we breath today, we will know such a cultural reality of the friendly universe ruled by love!! The transition from here to there is a journey of joy everlasting!

55:3.1 (624.7) During this age of light and life the world increasingly prospers under the fatherly rule of the Planetary Sovereign. By this time the worlds are progressing under the momentum of one language, one religion, and, on normal spheres, one race. But this age is not perfect. These worlds still have well-appointed hospitals, homes for the care of the sick. There still remain the problems of caring for accidental injuries and the inescapable infirmities attendant upon the decrepitude of old age and the disorders of senility. Disease has not been entirely vanquished, neither have the earth animals been subdued in perfection; but such worlds are like Paradise in comparison with the early times of primitive man during the pre-Planetary Prince age. You would instinctively describe such a realm—could you be suddenly transported to a planet in this stage of development—as heaven on earth.


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