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No one can have experience or wisdom without first having personality Stephen. Who would have the experience? Who would learn or remember or grow by experience if not a person first? Personality is required to experience and to express love, truth, beauty, goodness, relationships, understanding, growth, experience, discernment, worship, etc. Are not Material Sons and Daughters persons?

0:5.4 (8.4) All subinfinite orders and phases of personality are associative attainables and are potentially cocreational. The prepersonal, the personal, and the superpersonal are all linked together by mutual potential of co-ordinate attainment, progressive achievement, and cocreational capacity. But never does the impersonal directly transmute to the personal. Personality is never spontaneous; it is the gift of the Paradise Father. Personality is superimposed upon energy, and it is associated only with living energy systems; identity can be associated with nonliving energy patterns.

0:5.5 (8.5) The Universal Father is the secret of the reality of personality, the bestowal of personality, and the destiny of personality. The Eternal Son is the absolute personality, the secret of spiritual energy, morontia spirits, and perfected spirits. The Conjoint Actor is the spirit-mind personality, the source of intelligence, reason, and the universal mind. But the Isle of Paradise is nonpersonal and extraspiritual, being the essence of the universal body, the source and center of physical matter, and the absolute master pattern of universal material reality.

1:7.1 When Jesus talked about “the living God,” he referred to a personal Deity—the Father in heaven. The concept of the personality of Deity facilitates fellowship; it favors intelligent worship; it promotes refreshing trustfulness. Interactions can be had between nonpersonal things, but not fellowship. The fellowship relation of father and son, as between God and man, cannot be enjoyed unless both are persons. Only personalities can commune with each other, albeit this personal communion may be greatly facilitated by the presence of just such an impersonal entity as the Thought Adjuster.

1:7.3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, the concept of beauty may exist without personality, but the concept of divine goodness is understandable only in relation to personality. Only a person can love and be loved. Even beauty and truth would be divorced from survival hope if they were not attributes of a personal God, a loving Father.

1:7.6 The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation. And these characteristics further imply fellowship with other and equal personalities, such as exists in the personality associations of the Paradise Deities. And the absolute unity of these associations is so perfect that divinity becomes known by indivisibility, by oneness. “The Lord God is one.” Indivisibility of personality does not interfere with God's bestowing his spirit to live in the hearts of mortal men. Indivisibility of a human father's personality does not prevent the reproduction of mortal sons and daughters.

2:1.8 In these ways and in many others, in ways unknown to you and utterly beyond finite comprehension, does the Paradise Father lovingly and willingly downstep and otherwise modify, dilute, and attenuate his infinity in order that he may be able to draw nearer the finite minds of his creature children. And so, through a series of personality distributions which are diminishingly absolute, the infinite Father is enabled to enjoy close contact with the diverse intelligences of the many realms of his far-flung universe.

2:1.11 Divinity and eternity the Father shares with large numbers of the higher Paradise beings, but we question whether infinity and consequent universal primacy is fully shared with any save his co-ordinate associates of the Paradise Trinity. Infinity of personality must, perforce, embrace all finitude of personality; hence the truth—literal truth—of the teaching which declares that "In Him we live and move and have our being." That fragment of the pure Deity of the Universal Father which indwells mortal man is a part of the infinity of the First Great Source and Center, the Father of Fathers.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
How does the Adam & Eve, the prepattern of Material Sons & Daughters,factor into the thoughts and the ideas of Adam & Eve of Jerusem's children?


There is no such thing as a "prepattern". Adam and Eve are not "prepatterns" for Material Sons and Daughters. Adam is a Material Son and Eve is a Material Daughter.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
And how do the 48 sets of trait determinors factor into the ultimate mind capacity of the human individual?


Chromosomes determine mental capacity, glandular chemistry and behavior tendencies.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
How does the associative intellect operate upon the platform of these predetermined (or inheritable) traits, and as in its ideal expression through human-adjuster personality?


Through the ministry of the adjutant mind spirits, along with the spirit presences within the soul.


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fanofVan wrote:
Are not Material Sons and Daughters persons?

:?

As persons, they are like heroes to me. But their children Adam and Eve of Urantia who defaulted have a distinct personality, in a finite and relationship sense. I feel like I can know and understand them, relate to, them better. Adam & Eve of Jerusem are, by and by, two distinct creatures whom I greatly admire as the Parents of the humans of Satania. They are supernal, whereas I am finite and mortal.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Are not Material Sons and Daughters persons?

:?

As persons, they are like heroes to me. But their children Adam and Eve of Urantia who defaulted have a distinct personality, in a finite and relationship sense. I feel like I can know and understand them, relate to, them better. Adam & Eve of Jerusem are, by and by, two distinct creaturepreses whom I greatly admire as the Parents of the humans of Satania. They are supernal, whereas I am finite and mortal.


It is a rather grotesque misrepresentation to claim Adam & Eve, any or all of them, to be the parents of the mortal races - but especially those who do not serve on the evolutionary worlds. Such claims perpetuate the mythology of the Bible and the fall from grace fiction. The Material Sons and Daughters are not human but celestial beings whose importance and story should be told truthfully.

Andon and Fonta are our original and ancestral parents. Our racial history on this world began a million years ago, not 35,000 years ago. This also should be told truthfully. This falsehood claimed by you also diminishes and conceals the true and wondrous struggles of the life carriers and the adjutants who take billions of years to methodically bestow and evolve life from the single cell life forms to self aware and Spirit responsive mortal life with eternal potential. They may also be considered our parents in a way, at least they are the originators, designers, modifiers, nurturers, and evolvers of all life on our and every evolutionary inhabited world in time, including those of Satania. And what of the Sangiks and the Nodites?

Reality is fascinating as presented in the Papers. It's too bad Stephen feels the need for "embellishments" and interpretive misrepresentations of that presentation of reality. Especially when you perpetuate human myths and deny reality as presented. Reality is not a metaphor for your personal inventions and theories Stephen...at least not here.

Read the Book. Post text. Answer questions. Acknowledge error. Be a student. Please.



:roll:


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51:6.8 (One of the seven fathers to be recognised by ascenders is) the Planetary Adam & Eve.

Well, it was intended that the Planetary Adam & Eve of Urantia did not die, but they did. Oh I am just compensating for some need here. I am theorizing "what is the intention for man to recognise the Planetary Adams?" Then I found the actuality, the fact of Adam & Eve of Jerusem's existence, their divine natures, and I probe deeper: what are the patterns that were not incorporated into Urantia-Society, intrinsic to their culture, which are still meant as eventuational possibilities for us human individuals. I "look past" the temporality of Adam and Eve of Urantia, and I see that overall, God's Plan for the Planetary Adams, has been successful. You can say that I am wrong in this approach or how pathetic it seems, but my deplorability and embarassment at the intellectual-theodurgical or theological implications, cannot prevent my soul from actually identifying in this manner, though clumsily.

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But how is it that the original Adam and Eve of Satania and other System capitals are proclaimed by you to be the "parents" of all mortals born on all worlds in all Systems????!!! Ridiculous!! How biblical and how contradictory to the UB. Excuse it however you wish. Please quit making declarations of fantasy as if they are factual or sourced within the UB.

Theodurgical???????????????????????????? :roll: :roll: :-# =; :-$ :-& :(

How about textual accuracy rather than pure fictionalized inventions?? Where are the System Adam and Eve in the list below?? Do you intend then to replace the father of the spheres??? And this quote does not say that the Material Son and Daughter who are on-planet even are the "parents" of humanity, but rather, "the common ancestors of mankind". Do you understand the difference?

51:6.6 (587.4) With the passing of centuries, through the amalgamation of their progeny with the races of men, this same Material Son and Daughter become accepted as the common ancestors of mankind, the common parents of the now blended descendants of the evolutionary races. It is intended that mortals who start out from an inhabited world have the experience of recognizing seven fathers:

51:6.7 (587.5) 1. The biologic father—the father in the flesh.
51:6.8 (587.6) 2. The father of the realm—the Planetary Adam.
51:6.9 (587.7) 3. The father of the spheres—the System Sovereign.
51:6.10 (587.8) 4. The Most High Father—the Constellation Father.
51:6.11 (587.9) 5. The universe Father—the Creator Son and supreme ruler of the local creations.
51:6.12 (587.10) 6. The super-Fathers—the Ancients of Days who govern the superuniverse.
51:6.13 (587.11) 7. The spirit or Havona Father—the Universal Father, who dwells on Paradise and bestows his spirit to live and work in the minds of the lowly creatures who inhabit the universe of universes.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I "look past" the temporality of Adam and Eve of Urantia, and I see that overall, God's Plan for the Planetary Adams, has been successful.


I agree with this. It is written that Urantia is just now experiencing the post-Adamic epoch. It may have taken an extraordinarily long time, but the gift of Adamic plasma, regardless of how small, has succeeded in evolving mankind as planned. Reference:

(593.5) 52:3.6 The result of the gift of the Adamic life plasm to the mortal races is an immediate upstepping of intellectual capacity and an acceleration of spiritual progress. There is usually some physical improvement also. On an average world the post-Adamic dispensation is an age of great invention, energy control, and mechanical development. This is the era of the appearance of multiform manufacture and the control of natural forces; it is the golden age of exploration and the final subduing of the planet. Much of the material progress of a world occurs during this time of the inauguration of the development of the physical sciences, just such an epoch as Urantia is now experiencing. Your world is a full dispensation and more behind the average planetary schedule.


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What is the difference between the Parents and the common ancestor? :cry: Adam & Eve of Jerusem are the Parents of Adam & Eve of Urantia. Whereas the order of Michael is the common ancestors of the Material Sons and Daughters, but it may be equally true that Adam & Eve of Jerusem are the common ancestors of the human individuals being from roughly 1000 inhabited worlds.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
What is the difference between the Parents and the common ancestor? :cry: Adam & Eve of Jerusem are the Parents of Adam & Eve of Urantia. Whereas the order of Michael is the common ancestors of the Material Sons and Daughters, but it may be equally true that Adam & Eve of Jerusem are the common ancestors of the human individuals being from roughly 1000 inhabited worlds.


Come on Stephen! Being a common ancestor is NOT being the parent of all mortals. What did Adam and Eve have to do with Andon and Fonta for example? Or all those born over 1 million years (less 35,000) prior to the Garden. They are not only not their parents, they are not their ancestors either. Violet blood makes them an ancestor....but not parents.

Did Eve give birth to every human? Please....

You do realize that Adams and Eves do not normally ever procreate with humans and neither do their children I do not think. Urantia is very unusual in that peculiar regard. It is the pure blood grandchildren of Adam and Eve that mix with the native populations.

51:3.3 (583.2) A Planetary Adam and Eve are, in potential, the full gift of physical grace to the mortal races. The chief business of such an imported pair is to multiply and to uplift the children of time. But there is no immediate interbreeding between the people of the garden and those of the world; for many generations Adam and Eve remain biologically segregated from the evolutionary mortals while they build up a strong race of their order. This is the origin of the violet race on the inhabited worlds.

51:5.2 (585.6) Usually the violet peoples do not begin to amalgamate with the planetary natives until their own group numbers over one million. But in the meantime the staff of the Planetary Prince proclaims that the children of the Gods have come down, as it were, to be one with the races of men; and the people eagerly look forward to the day when announcement will be made that those who have qualified as belonging to the superior racial strains may proceed to the Garden of Eden and be there chosen by the sons and daughters of Adam as the evolutionary fathers and mothers of the new and blended order of mankind.

51:5.3 (585.7) On normal worlds the Planetary Adam and Eve never mate with the evolutionary races. This work of biologic betterment is a function of the Adamic progeny. But these Adamites do not go out among the races; the prince’s staff bring to the Garden of Eden the superior men and women for voluntary mating with the Adamic offspring. And on most worlds it is considered the highest honor to be selected as a candidate for mating with the sons and daughters of the garden.


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Have you ever considered how wonderful it is that two humans are needed to procreate? The idea of pairing goes all the way down to our genes. Humans need a complement in order to replicate since each sex has only half of the necessary chromosomes. I'm sure the reason for this has to do with the potential diversity of expression of the gene pool, but one cannot ignore the fact that pairing is a dominant theme of creation. It would be a much different world if humans could self-fertilize. The idea of members of the violet race eventually pairing with members of the Urantia races is likely more meaningful than merely expanding the genomic expression of human potential. It certainly has psychic, cultural and spiritual meaning as well.


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However, how is it that it came to be, that Andonic human evolutionary life came to be compatible with the Adamic protoplasm? Even evolutionary creatures might identify Adam of Jerusem perhaps in this manner. He and Eve are the adoptive Parents of the evolved mortal human individuals as well as the common ancestor of own children, just as Michael of Nebadon is our spiritual father and creator.

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fanofVan wrote:
...It is the pure blood grandchildren of Adam and Eve that mix with the native populations.


Adamson (A&E's first born) married Ratta.

.


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rick warren wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
...It is the pure blood grandchildren of Adam and Eve that mix with the native populations.


Adamson (A&E's first born) married Ratta.

.


Greetings Rick!!

As I said...Urantia is very unusual. The default led to all manner of peculiarities. Adamson did not marry Ratta until long after default and even after the second Garden (The parents of the first two secondary Midwayers!). Adamson already had over 100 pure line violet children prior to his marriage to Ratta. But you are right. The text posted says that normally Adam and Eve produce one million pure line progeny prior to interbreeding and that Adam and Eve do not participate in that element at all. But they did that here too.

The quotes do not say their children do not take mortal spouses (my bad). We are told the one million includes grandchildren and great grandchildren and even great-great grandchildren and more, to reach a million in population. Each mating/pairing results in a monogamous coupling and family whereby the children of the couple return to the mortal parent's tribe and family as a leader and teacher. Paper 51 is a great read!

51:3.3 (583.2) A Planetary Adam and Eve are, in potential, the full gift of physical grace to the mortal races. The chief business of such an imported pair is to multiply and to uplift the children of time. But there is no immediate interbreeding between the people of the garden and those of the world; for many generations Adam and Eve remain biologically segregated from the evolutionary mortals while they build up a strong race of their order. This is the origin of the violet race on the inhabited worlds.

8)


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
However, how is it that it came to be, that Andonic human evolutionary life came to be compatible with the Adamic protoplasm? Even evolutionary creatures might identify Adam of Jerusem perhaps in this manner. He and Eve are the adoptive Parents of the evolved mortal human individuals as well as the common ancestor of own children, just as Michael of Nebadon is our spiritual father and creator.


You will have to ask the Life Carriers when you get the chance. But obviously ALL mortal life forms on ALL evolutionary worlds are compatible with the Adamic biology and genetic material bodies. This functionality is designed and built in from the beginning of time and the very first inhabited world and first Adam and Eve to serve as bio/cultural planetary uplifters. There may also be some adaptations applied to each Material Son and Daughter pair based on their world of assignment which is completed at that time.

51:2.4 (582.4) Upon arrival at their planetary destination the Material Son and Daughter are rematerialized under the direction of the Life Carriers. This entire process takes ten to twenty-eight days of Urantia time. The unconsciousness of the seraphic slumber continues throughout this entire period of reconstruction. When the reassembly of the physical organism is completed, these Material Sons and Daughters stand in their new homes and on their new worlds to all intents and purposes just as they were before submitting to the dematerializing process on Jerusem.


We are told that the progeny of Adam and Eve on each material/evolutionary world are biologically different from their parents and the children of their parents born on the System Capital. This difference is to enhance the compatibility for coupling with the planet mortals.

51:1.8 (581.5) On Jerusem the loyal children of any Adam and Eve are immortal, but the offspring of a Material Son and Daughter procreated subsequent to their arrival on an evolutionary planet are not thus immune to natural death. There occurs a change in the life-transmitting mechanism when these Sons are rematerialized for reproductive function on an evolutionary world. The Life Carriers designedly deprive the Planetary Adams and Eves of the power of begetting undying sons and daughters. If they do not default, an Adam and Eve on a planetary mission can live on indefinitely, but within certain limits their children experience decreasing longevity with each succeeding generation.

We know that the material races of time are not uniform in appearance. Indeed, I think there is quite a spectrum of differential variety. I wonder if each Adam and Eve are physically and biologically transformed to resemble the appearance of the mortal life forms of each planet? I would imagine the body forms to be important to their mission of being attractive and desirable to the peoples of all the populated worlds.

51:1.2 (580.5) The material order of sonship is not uniform throughout the local universe. The Creator Son produces only one pair of these beings in each local system; these original pairs are diverse in nature, being attuned to the life pattern of their respective systems. This is a necessary provision since otherwise the reproductive potential of the Adams would be nonfunctional with that of the evolving mortal beings of the worlds of any one particular system. The Adam and Eve who came to Urantia were descended from the original Satania pair of Material Sons.

8) Bradly


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Greetings Rick!!

As I said...Urantia is very unusual. The default led to all manner of peculiarities. Adamson did not marry Ratta until long after default and even after the second Garden. Adamson already had over 100 pure line violet children prior to his marriage to Ratta. But you are right. The text posted says that normally Adam and Eve produce one million pure line progeny prior to interbreeding and that Adam and Eve do not participate in that element at all. But they did that here too.

The quotes do not say their children do not take mortal spouses (my bad). We are told the one million includes grandchildren and great grandchildren and even great-great grandchildren and more, to reach a million in population. Each mating/pairing results in a monogamous coupling and family whereby the children of the couple return to the mortal parent's tribe and family as a leader and teacher. Paper 51 is a great read!

51:3.3 (583.2) A Planetary Adam and Eve are, in potential, the full gift of physical grace to the mortal races. The chief business of such an imported pair is to multiply and to uplift the children of time. But there is no immediate interbreeding between the people of the garden and those of the world; for many generations Adam and Eve remain biologically segregated from the evolutionary mortals while they build up a strong race of their order. This is the origin of the violet race on the inhabited worlds.


Good point about Urantia and 'normal', Bradley. A couple of corrections, Adamson had 32 kiddos in the first garden, 67 with Ratta in the Violet center north of the Second Garden, beginning when he was ONLY 123!!!

77:5.3 (861.3) Adamson was 120 years old at this time and had been the father of thirty-two pure-line children of the first garden.

77:5.6 (861.6) Adamson and Ratta had a family of sixty-seven children.

77:5.7 (862.1) Adamson lived for 396 years. Many times he returned to visit his father and mother. Every seven years he and Ratta journeyed south to the second garden...

What's it like to have 99 kids?!


*


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