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Long paragraph or sentence quoted so cant parse it out. But for perspective it’s good to read the entire quote.
Just interested in the very last part where the author states some very compelling information that can certainly upset the hypothetical Big Bang theory:
Think about what he stated about the possible destiny of stationary orders of citizenship:
They stand ready to welcome the incoming stream of Paradise pilgrims pouring through Orvonton as a torrent from the now uncharted outer space galaxies (in my own words).
For today’s typical astronomer these vast uncharted distant galaxies are billions of years in the past as we observe them. But the author reveals that these same creations have yet to be inhabited and put to use and migration to these distant galaxies won’t happen until our 7 super universes are settled in the far distant future.
Can someone resolve this for me?
In my (metaphysical) interpretation the author confirms that matter comes into existence out there as opposed to the Big Bang idea where matter comes into existence from a point, a singularity, and expands out there.
How does this change your concept of time and space? Of the size and scope of the known universe? Of how we should consider these far distant galaxies scientifically and astronomically? Of how old they really are, even of how far away they really are?
Anybody??


453.3) 40:10.8 What the ultimate destiny of these stationary orders of local and of superuniverse citizenship will be we do not know, but it is quite possible that, when the Paradise finaliters are pioneering the expanding frontiers of divinity in the planetary systems of the first outer space level, their Son- and Spirit-fused brethren of the ascendant evolutionary struggle will be acceptably contributing to the maintenance of the experiential equilibrium of the perfected superuniverses while they stand ready to welcome the incoming stream of Paradise pilgrims who may, at that distant day, pour in through Orvonton and its sister creations as a vast spirit-questing torrent from these now uncharted and uninhabited galaxies of outer space.


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Lots of interesting concepts and questions!!

Just to clarify, the text you posted has to do primarily with the outer space levels (the first one of an endless number) which is the future-creation arena for the finaliters of the current 7 Superuniverses of time and space. Pre-creation conditions are afoot out there but nothing specifically material yet I do not think. The quote is talking about that far distant time when the Supreme is experientially fulfilled in this dimension of time and space and all 7 Supers have experienced the Grand Jubilee of being fully settled in Light and Life - the "perfected Super Universes".

Anything visible in the outerspace levels may be more of a primordial soup than anything specific in formation. I don't know.

The actual creation format (including energy, force, gravity, and materials) out there may well be very different than in the existing 7 Supers! As far as the 7 Supers are concerned every single Local Universe is a separately created entity from all others in time and in some forms of creation potentials although all utilize the same forces and elements. Each Local may start with a mini-bang, the UB does not say but of course there has never been a singularity for all of creation. First came Havona, then the 7, and then began the Locals within each of the 7. Many worlds are not fully formed for life implantation and it can take a very long time for a world to be declared inhabited and the a million or more years before it achieves Light and Life and every world and System of worlds, and Constellation, and Local Universe, and Super Universe must achieve L&L before the text posted even begins to have relevance in time.

Those mortals who achieve Son or Spirit fusion rather than Father fusion will remain in the 7 Supers and Locals in residential service to the original universes of time and space. Father fused mortals and many, many celestials from the 7 Supers/Locals will go forth in the Corps of Finality to embrace the creation on whole new levels of existence and adventure in the outer space levels still to come.

As to how big it all is? It is infinitely big. It is immeasurably big. It is endless in its enormity and in its eternal adventure to come!! And we are on the way to that level of eternal and infinite adventure. Yahooooo!!!!

8)

The Urantia Book

Paper 31
The Corps of the Finality

31:0.1 (345.1) THE Corps of Mortal Finaliters represents the present known destination of the ascending Adjuster-fused mortals of time. But there are other groups who are also assigned to this corps. The primary finaliter corps is composed of the following:

31:0.2 (345.2) 1. Havona Natives.
31:0.3 (345.3) 2. Gravity Messengers.
31:0.4 (345.4) 3. Glorified Mortals.
31:0.5 (345.5) 4. Adopted Seraphim.
31:0.6 (345.6) 5. Glorified Material Sons.
31:0.7 (345.7) 6. Glorified Midway Creatures.

31:0.8 (345.8) These six groups of glorified beings compose this unique body of eternal destiny. We think we know their future work, but we are not certain. While the Corps of the Mortal Finality is mobilizing on Paradise, and while they now so extensively minister to the universes of space and administer the worlds settled in light and life, their future destination must be the now-organizing universes of outer space. At least that is the conjecture of Uversa.

31:10.11 (353.7) We venture the forecast of future and greater outer universes of inhabited worlds, new spheres peopled with new orders of exquisite and unique beings, a material universe sublime in its ultimacy, a vast creation lacking in only one important detail—the presence of actual finite experience in the universal life of ascendant existence. Such a universe will come into being under a tremendous experiential handicap: the deprivation of participation in the evolution of the Almighty Supreme. These outer universes will all enjoy the matchless ministry and supernal overcontrol of the Supreme Being, but the very fact of his active presence precludes their participation in the actualization of the Supreme Deity.

31:10.12 (353.8) During the present universe age the evolving personalities of the grand universe suffer many difficulties due to the incomplete actualization of the sovereignty of God the Supreme, but we are all sharing the unique experience of his evolution. We evolve in him and he evolves in us. Sometime in the eternal future the evolution of Supreme Deity will become a completed fact of universe history, and the opportunity to participate in this wonderful experience will have passed from the stage of cosmic action.

31:10.13 (353.9) But those of us who have acquired this unique experience during the youth of the universe will treasure it throughout all future eternity. And many of us speculate that it may be the mission of the gradually accumulating reserves of the ascendant and perfected mortals of the Corps of the Finality, in association with the other six similarly recruiting corps, to administer these outer universes in an effort to compensate their experiential deficiencies in not having participated in the time-space evolution of the Supreme Being.

31:10.14 (353.10) These deficiencies are inevitable on all levels of universe existence. During the present universe age we of the higher levels of spiritual existences now come down to administer the evolutionary universes and minister to the ascending mortals, thus endeavoring to atone for their deficiencies in the realities of the higher spiritual experience.

31:10.15 (354.1) But though we really know nothing about the plans of the Architects of the Master Universe respecting these outer creations, nevertheless, of three things we are certain:

31:10.16 (354.2) 1. There actually is a vast and new system of universes gradually organizing in the domains of outer space. New orders of physical creations, enormous and gigantic circles of swarming universes upon universes far out beyond the present bounds of the peopled and organized creations, are actually visible through your telescopes. At present, these outer creations are wholly physical; they are apparently uninhabited and seem to be devoid of creature administration.

31:10.17 (354.3) 2. For ages upon ages there continues the unexplained and wholly mysterious Paradise mobilization of the perfected and ascendant beings of time and space, in association with the six other finaliter corps.

31:10.18 (354.4) 3. Concomitantly with these transactions the Supreme Person of Deity is powerizing as the almighty sovereign of the supercreations.

31:10.19 (354.5) As we view this triune development, embracing creatures, universes, and Deity, can we be criticized for anticipating that something new and unrevealed is approaching culmination in the master universe? Is it not natural that we should associate this agelong mobilization and organization of physical universes on such a hitherto unknown scale and the personality emergence of the Supreme Being with this stupendous scheme of upstepping the mortals of time to divine perfection and with their subsequent mobilization on Paradise in the Corps of the Finality—a designation and destiny enshrouded in universe mystery? It is increasingly the belief of all Uversa that the assembling Corps of the Finality are destined to some future service in the universes of outer space, where we already are able to identify the clustering of at least seventy thousand aggregations of matter, each of which is greater than any one of the present superuniverses.

31:10.20 (354.6) Evolutionary mortals are born on the planets of space, pass through the morontia worlds, ascend the spirit universes, traverse the Havona spheres, find God, attain Paradise, and are mustered into the primary Corps of the Finality, therein to await the next assignment of universe service. There are six other assembling finality corps, but Grandfanda, the first mortal ascender, presides as Paradise chief of all orders of finaliters. And as we view this sublime spectacle, we all exclaim: What a glorious destiny for the animal-origin children of time, the material sons of space!

31:10.21 (354.7) [Jointly sponsored by a Divine Counselor and One without Name and Number authorized so to function by the Ancients of Days on Uversa.]

:wink: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: 8) :!:


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fanofVan wrote:
Lots of interesting concepts and questions!!

Just to clarify, the text you posted has to do primarily with the outer space levels (the first one of an endless number) which is the future-creation arena for the finaliters of the current 7 Superuniverses of time and space. Pre-creation conditions are afoot out there but nothing specifically material yet I do not think. The quote is talking about that far distant time when the Supreme is experientially fulfilled in this dimension of time and space and all 7 Supers have experienced the Grand Jubilee of being fully settled in Light and Life - the "perfected Super Universes".

Anything visible in the outerspace levels may be more of a primordial soup than anything specific in formation. I don't know.

The actual creation format (including energy, force, gravity, and materials) out there may well be very different than in the existing 7 Supers! As far as the 7 Supers are concerned every single Local Universe is a separately created entity from all others in time and in some forms of creation potentials although all utilize the same forces and elements. Each Local may start with a mini-bang, the UB does not say but of course there has never been a singularity for all of creation. First came Havona, then the 7, and then began the Locals within each of the 7. Many worlds are not fully formed for life implantation and it can take a very long time for a world to be declared inhabited and the a million or more years before it achieves Light and Life and every world and System of worlds, and Constellation, and Local Universe, and Super Universe must achieve L&L before the text posted even begins to have relevance in time.

Those mortals who achieve Son or Spirit fusion rather than Father fusion will remain in the 7 Supers and Locals in residential service to the original universes of time and space. Father fused mortals and many, many celestials from the 7 Supers/Locals will go forth in the Corps of Finality to embrace the creation on whole new levels of existence and adventure in the outer space levels still to come.

As to how big it all is? It is infinitely big. It is immeasurably big. It is endless in its enormity and in its eternal adventure to come!! And we are on the way to that level of eternal and infinite adventure. Yahooooo!!!!

8)

The Urantia Book

Paper 31
The Corps of the Finality

31:0.1 (345.1) THE Corps of Mortal Finaliters represents the present known destination of the ascending Adjuster-fused mortals of time. But there are other groups who are also assigned to this corps. The primary finaliter corps is composed of the following:

31:0.2 (345.2) 1. Havona Natives.
31:0.3 (345.3) 2. Gravity Messengers.
31:0.4 (345.4) 3. Glorified Mortals.
31:0.5 (345.5) 4. Adopted Seraphim.
31:0.6 (345.6) 5. Glorified Material Sons.
31:0.7 (345.7) 6. Glorified Midway Creatures.

31:0.8 (345.8) These six groups of glorified beings compose this unique body of eternal destiny. We think we know their future work, but we are not certain. While the Corps of the Mortal Finality is mobilizing on Paradise, and while they now so extensively minister to the universes of space and administer the worlds settled in light and life, their future destination must be the now-organizing universes of outer space. At least that is the conjecture of Uversa.

31:10.11 (353.7) We venture the forecast of future and greater outer universes of inhabited worlds, new spheres peopled with new orders of exquisite and unique beings, a material universe sublime in its ultimacy, a vast creation lacking in only one important detail—the presence of actual finite experience in the universal life of ascendant existence. Such a universe will come into being under a tremendous experiential handicap: the deprivation of participation in the evolution of the Almighty Supreme. These outer universes will all enjoy the matchless ministry and supernal overcontrol of the Supreme Being, but the very fact of his active presence precludes their participation in the actualization of the Supreme Deity.

31:10.12 (353.8) During the present universe age the evolving personalities of the grand universe suffer many difficulties due to the incomplete actualization of the sovereignty of God the Supreme, but we are all sharing the unique experience of his evolution. We evolve in him and he evolves in us. Sometime in the eternal future the evolution of Supreme Deity will become a completed fact of universe history, and the opportunity to participate in this wonderful experience will have passed from the stage of cosmic action.

31:10.13 (353.9) But those of us who have acquired this unique experience during the youth of the universe will treasure it throughout all future eternity. And many of us speculate that it may be the mission of the gradually accumulating reserves of the ascendant and perfected mortals of the Corps of the Finality, in association with the other six similarly recruiting corps, to administer these outer universes in an effort to compensate their experiential deficiencies in not having participated in the time-space evolution of the Supreme Being.

31:10.14 (353.10) These deficiencies are inevitable on all levels of universe existence. During the present universe age we of the higher levels of spiritual existences now come down to administer the evolutionary universes and minister to the ascending mortals, thus endeavoring to atone for their deficiencies in the realities of the higher spiritual experience.

31:10.15 (354.1) But though we really know nothing about the plans of the Architects of the Master Universe respecting these outer creations, nevertheless, of three things we are certain:

31:10.16 (354.2) 1. There actually is a vast and new system of universes gradually organizing in the domains of outer space. New orders of physical creations, enormous and gigantic circles of swarming universes upon universes far out beyond the present bounds of the peopled and organized creations, are actually visible through your telescopes. At present, these outer creations are wholly physical; they are apparently uninhabited and seem to be devoid of creature administration.

31:10.17 (354.3) 2. For ages upon ages there continues the unexplained and wholly mysterious Paradise mobilization of the perfected and ascendant beings of time and space, in association with the six other finaliter corps.

31:10.18 (354.4) 3. Concomitantly with these transactions the Supreme Person of Deity is powerizing as the almighty sovereign of the supercreations.

31:10.19 (354.5) As we view this triune development, embracing creatures, universes, and Deity, can we be criticized for anticipating that something new and unrevealed is approaching culmination in the master universe? Is it not natural that we should associate this agelong mobilization and organization of physical universes on such a hitherto unknown scale and the personality emergence of the Supreme Being with this stupendous scheme of upstepping the mortals of time to divine perfection and with their subsequent mobilization on Paradise in the Corps of the Finality—a designation and destiny enshrouded in universe mystery? It is increasingly the belief of all Uversa that the assembling Corps of the Finality are destined to some future service in the universes of outer space, where we already are able to identify the clustering of at least seventy thousand aggregations of matter, each of which is greater than any one of the present superuniverses.

31:10.20 (354.6) Evolutionary mortals are born on the planets of space, pass through the morontia worlds, ascend the spirit universes, traverse the Havona spheres, find God, attain Paradise, and are mustered into the primary Corps of the Finality, therein to await the next assignment of universe service. There are six other assembling finality corps, but Grandfanda, the first mortal ascender, presides as Paradise chief of all orders of finaliters. And as we view this sublime spectacle, we all exclaim: What a glorious destiny for the animal-origin children of time, the material sons of space!

31:10.21 (354.7) [Jointly sponsored by a Divine Counselor and One without Name and Number authorized so to function by the Ancients of Days on Uversa.]

:wink: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: 8) :!:


Thank you for the reinforcing quotes. But you missed my metaphysic.
Whatever we observe out there in the outer space levels came into being out there.
Current science says it migrated out there.
Reading paper 40:10 implies such a metaphysical thought indirectly - for me anyway. The author is exercising metaphysic about the destiny of spirit and son fused beings but I'm on about the material creation that future beings will call home.
Dont it make you think about how concepts of distance, age, size, motion etc would change for or scientific community if their concept changed about how matter comes into existence out there as opposed to migrating out there? Its going to happen at some point in our future.


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Got it...thanks for the clarification.

Doesn't change anything for me...I've always been a creationist by evolution and have never considered the big bang anything but another failure of scientific theory which explains one small subset of observed phenomena while completely disregarding other observations and measurements.

Science itself does not take the big bang seriously and hasn't for quite awhile. Modern science will never discover reality or its physics until it begins to approach science as it originally did...as the quest to find and understand God and God's creation.

Godless science will devour itself, like a snake swallowing itself, until that inevitable day that it begins to assume a creator with design, thought, personality, and management by mind. Along the way the scientific method will destroy the BB theory and determine that the universes of time and space have no uniform singularity of time or event or space which defines the beginning.

Will they theorize space respiration by more sophisticated observation and measurement? Probably. How confounding will that be? Hahhahaha.

:wink:


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fanofVan wrote:
Got it...thanks for the clarification.

Doesn't change anything for me...I've always been a creationist by evolution and have never considered the big bang anything but another failure of scientific theory which explains one small subset of observed phenomena while completely disregarding other observations and measurements.

Science itself does not take the big bang seriously and hasn't for quite awhile. Modern science will never discover reality or its physics until it begins to approach science as it originally did...as the quest to find and understand God and God's creation.

Godless science will devour itself, like a snake swallowing itself, until that inevitable day that it begins to assume a creator with design, thought, personality, and management by mind. Along the way the scientific method will destroy the BB theory and determine that the universes of time and space have no uniform singularity of time or event or space which defines the beginning.

Will they theorize space respiration by more sophisticated observation and measurement? Probably. How confounding will that be? Hahhahaha.

:wink:


The Big Bang is the magic man of science - analogous to the magic man of religion where some people need that sign, the miracle in order to believe.
But the revelation certainly teases our minds with so many indirect bits of information that seems to make it very compelling and attractive to think into the distant future with similar awe and reverence as the authors.
We metaphysic now but as Father fused beings to be, it’s our destiny to find the truth and facts.


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couple of big differences between the papers and modern science:

to newton space is an absolute empty container that holds things, to einstein space is a relative grid of imaginary points...in the papers space is a near absolute "thing", a blanket of potential force from which energy and matter "coalesce", and that can and does happen anywhere, anytime conditions permit in pervaded space. the matter for countless future universes is present now in the form of space potency.

big bang models a universe with a beginning and an end whereas in the papers the center and source of pervaded space is eternal and space is cyclical, expanding and contracting while revolving about the nucleus.


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Makalu wrote:
couple of big differences between the papers and modern science: ...

Thanks Makalu for getting us started. Another big difference is that in the Urantia book story of the cosmos, the authors distinguish between two distinct components: one is ancient, organized, and (relatively) small. The other is impressively vast. And possibly quite young?

The ancient and organized part they call "the grand universe", a massive, wheel-like structure destined to serve as central kernel for the part which is vast and young. And it's this second component that our astronomers observe, the early evolution of a web of clustered galaxies in nested levels of outer space. (It's the red-shifting of light from this part of the cosmos that Big Bang cosmology has been carefully tuned to explain.)

Taken together -- this ancient tiny kernel, and these vast levels of outer space -- form the so-called "master universe".

Many students of these papers have tried to sketch this system; but in paper 106, "Universe Levels of Reality", we get a sense of why our best efforts are likely to fall short. In this paper, the author completes the job of bridging the inevitable logical and philosophical gaps in any foreseeable native, metaphysical cosmology.

For example, regarding the "more-than-finite" nature of the master universe, 106:7.7 helps set the scene:

Quote:
"To finite creatures of the grand universe the concept of the master universe seems to be well-nigh infinite, but doubtless the absonite architects thereof perceive its relatedness to future and unimagined developments within the unending I AM. Even space itself is but an ultimate condition, a condition of qualification within the relative absoluteness of the quiet zones of midspace." 1169.6, 106:7.7

But for me, it's the next paragraph that gives us a glimpse of the author's perspective (and washed away all my assumptions):
Quote:
"At the inconceivably distant future eternity moment of the final completion of the entire master universe, no doubt we will all look back upon its entire history as only the beginning, simply the creation of certain finite and transcendental foundations for even greater and more enthralling metamorphoses in uncharted infinity. At such a future eternity moment the master universe will still seem youthful; indeed, it will be always young in the face of the limitless possibilities of never-ending eternity." 1170.1, 106:7.8

The completed, perfected master universe, serving merely as "certain finite and transcendental foundations" for our Father's business.

Talk about "big picture", and "top-down" view!

Nigel


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yeah...mind blowing...just a little rest then another great quest :)

Quote:
The perfected grand universe of those future days will be vastly different from what it
is at present. Gone will be the thrilling adventures of the organization of the galaxies of
space, the planting of life on the uncertain worlds of time, and the evolving of harmony
out of chaos, beauty out of potentials, truth out of meanings, and goodness out of values.
The time universes will have achieved the fulfillment of finite destiny! And perhaps for a
space there will be rest, relaxation from the agelong struggle for evolutionary perfection.
But not for long! Certainly, surely, and inexorably the enigma of the emerging Deity of
God the Ultimate will challenge these perfected citizens of the settled universes just as
their struggling evolutionary forebears were once challenged by the quest for God the
Supreme. The curtain of cosmic destiny will draw back to reveal the transcendent grandeur
of the alluring absonite quest for the attainment of the Universal Father on those new
and higher levels revealed in the ultimate of creature experience


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