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 Post subject: Re: Sincere question
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great and very helpful answer Bradly and thanks again to all who helped answer my questions.

I have one more: Theologically speaking (forgive me for using the "T" word) I am just wondering about my learning and growing experience up to now. I have always considered my "contact", that is the focus of my prayers and desires and everything my spirit or soul or whatever desires, as Jesus. My innermost conversations and prayers were always directed toward Jesus and I always considered the answers and guidance as from him. I suppose that is a bit on the presumptuous side, yet this has been the cornerstone of my spiritual life. Since beginning my study of the Urantia Book, I still continue to direct my prayers to Him, that is the way I focus I guess. Maybe it's just a mental habit or rut, but directing my prayers and all to Michael of Nebadon is not yet a part of my prayers, meditations or worship. I really don't think it makes any difference to Him or to me, but many people are asking me questions and I would like to be solid regarding this.

I know it is all tied in with traditional Christian teachings, so I am trying to separate the wheat of truth from the chaff of other information.


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 Post subject: Re: Sincere question
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That is an excellent question. Paper 5, "God's Relation to the Individual," addresses this issue quite directly:

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5:3.4 (65.6) The moment the element of self-interest intrudes upon worship, that instant devotion translates from worship to prayer and more appropriately should be directed to the person of the Eternal Son or the Creator Son. But in practical religious experience there exists no reason why prayer should not be addressed to God the Father as a part of true worship.

5:3.5 (66.1) When you deal with the practical affairs of your daily life, you are in the hands of the spirit personalities having origin in the Third Source and Center; you are co-operating with the agencies of the Conjoint Actor. And so it is: You worship God; pray to, and commune with, the Son; and work out the details of your earthly sojourn in connection with the intelligences of the Infinite Spirit operating on your world and throughout your universe.


Paper 7, as well, provides even more clarity:

Quote:
7:3.3 (84.3) The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting the genuine prayers of the believing human heart from the level of human consciousness to the actual consciousness of Deity. That which represents true spiritual value in your petitions will be seized by the universal circuit of spirit gravity and will pass immediately and simultaneously to all divine personalities concerned. Each will occupy himself with that which belongs to his personal province. Therefore, in your practical religious experience, it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.


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 Post subject: Re: Sincere question
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Greetings. The answering text by Agon D. is on point! We are taught that no prayer goes unnoticed or undelivered to whomever is the correct "address" and addressee for its delivery and resolution! All prayer is forwarded appropriately, no matter to whom we might direct it. Jesus is Michael. They are and forever will be one and the same...the Son of God and the Son of Man...and his Spirit of Truth will attend us all the way to and through Paradise/Havona.

Praying to Jesus is entirely appropriate. Jesus prayed to Abba....the familiar Father or Dad or Pappa!!

I think the real point is that it's personal. It's not about some distant, aloof, or indifferent entity in the sky or far away. The TA is the delivery vehicle for all prayers....even foolish, immature, and selfish prayer. And also the vehicle for worship.

91:8.4 (1001.8) To some individuals prayer is the calm expression of gratitude; to others, a group expression of praise, social devotions; sometimes it is the imitation of another’s religion, while in true praying it is the sincere and trusting communication of the spiritual nature of the creature with the anywhere presence of the spirit of the Creator.

91:8.5 (1001.9) Prayer may be a spontaneous expression of God-consciousness or a meaningless recitation of theologic formulas. It may be the ecstatic praise of a God-knowing soul or the slavish obeisance of a fear-ridden mortal. It is sometimes the pathetic expression of spiritual craving and sometimes the blatant shouting of pious phrases. Prayer may be joyous praise or a humble plea for forgiveness.

91:8.6 (1001.10) Prayer may be the childlike plea for the impossible or the mature entreaty for moral growth and spiritual power. A petition may be for daily bread or may embody a wholehearted yearning to find God and to do his will. It may be a wholly selfish request or a true and magnificent gesture toward the realization of unselfish brotherhood.

91:8.7 (1001.11) Prayer may be an angry cry for vengeance or a merciful intercession for one’s enemies. It may be the expression of a hope of changing God or the powerful technique of changing one’s self. It may be the cringing plea of a lost sinner before a supposedly stern Judge or the joyful expression of a liberated son of the living and merciful heavenly Father.

91:8.8 (1001.12) Modern man is perplexed by the thought of talking things over with God in a purely personal way. Many have abandoned regular praying; they only pray when under unusual pressure—in emergencies. Man should be unafraid to talk to God, but only a spiritual child would undertake to persuade, or presume to change, God.

91:8.9 (1002.1) But real praying does attain reality. Even when the air currents are ascending, no bird can soar except by outstretched wings. Prayer elevates man because it is a technique of progressing by the utilization of the ascending spiritual currents of the universe.

91:8.10 (1002.2) Genuine prayer adds to spiritual growth, modifies attitudes, and yields that satisfaction which comes from communion with divinity. It is a spontaneous outburst of God-consciousness.

91:8.11 (1002.3) God answers man’s prayer by giving him an increased revelation of truth, an enhanced appreciation of beauty, and an augmented concept of goodness. Prayer is a subjective gesture, but it contacts with mighty objective realities on the spiritual levels of human experience; it is a meaningful reach by the human for superhuman values. It is the most potent spiritual-growth stimulus.

91:8.12 (1002.4) Words are irrelevant to prayer; they are merely the intellectual channel in which the river of spiritual supplication may chance to flow. The word value of a prayer is purely autosuggestive in private devotions and sociosuggestive in group devotions. God answers the soul’s attitude, not the words.

91:8.13 (1002.5) Prayer is not a technique of escape from conflict but rather a stimulus to growth in the very face of conflict. Pray only for values, not things; for growth, not for gratification.


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:40 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sincere question
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fanofVan wrote:
Greetings. The answering text by Agon D. is on point! We are taught that no prayer goes unnoticed or undelivered to whomever is the correct "address" and addressee for its delivery and resolution! All prayer is forwarded appropriately, no matter to whom we might direct it. Jesus is Michael. They are and forever will be one and the same...the Son of God and the Son of Man...and his Spirit of Truth will attend us all the way to and through Paradise/Havona.

Praying to Jesus is entirely appropriate. Jesus prayed to Abba....the familiar Father or Dad or Pappa!!

I think the real point is that it's personal. It's not about some distant, aloof, or indifferent entity in the sky or far away. The TA is the delivery vehicle for all prayers....even foolish, immature, and selfish prayer. And also the vehicle for worship.


I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there; at least, the way I interpret this TUB statement:

Quote:
7:3.6 (84.6) Conversely, if your supplications are purely material and wholly self-centered, there exists no plan whereby such unworthy prayers can find lodgment in the spirit circuit of the Eternal Son. The content of any petition which is not “spirit indited” can find no place in the universal spiritual circuit; such purely selfish and material requests fall dead; they do not ascend in the circuits of true spirit values. Such words are as “sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal.”


Also, I am not sure "the TA is the delivery vehicle" …? I could be wrong, but isn't spirit gravity, as described in the quote previously posted:

Quote:
7:3.3 (84.3) The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting the genuine prayers of the believing human heart from the level of human consciousness to the actual consciousness of Deity. That which represents true spiritual value in your petitions will be seized by the universal circuit of spirit gravity and will pass immediately and simultaneously to all divine personalities concerned. ,,,,


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 Post subject: Re: Sincere question
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I agree with you Agon D. Onter...and thank you! I should have been more specific. Such primitive prayers as mortals may devise are not particularly effective at gaining a response from Deity. However, it is a reach out to something/someone within and outside of ourselves....it is a religious experience which is a demonstration of faith. It may come from blindness, ignorance, self importance, self serving, fear based, and other primitive foundations. But nonetheless, no one prays to someone or for something without that inner response to the Holy Spirit and Adjutant of Worship. All prayer separates from animals and distinguishes us as mortals connected to Spirit.


Prayer is always an expression of faith...in some manner or degree. Or so I think we are taught.

89:8.7 (983.5) Primitive forms of prayer were nothing more nor less than bargaining with the spirits, an argument with the gods. It was a kind of bartering in which pleading and persuasion were substituted for something more tangible and costly. The developing commerce of the races had inculcated the spirit of trade and had developed the shrewdness of barter; and now these traits began to appear in man’s worship methods. And as some men were better traders than others, so some were regarded as better prayers than others. The prayer of a just man was held in high esteem. A just man was one who had paid all accounts to the spirits, had fully discharged every ritual obligation to the gods.

89:8.8 (983.6) Early prayer was hardly worship; it was a bargaining petition for health, wealth, and life. And in many respects prayers have not much changed with the passing of the ages. They are still read out of books, recited formally, and written out for emplacement on wheels and for hanging on trees, where the blowing of the winds will save man the trouble of expending his own breath.

As to the TA being the conduit by which all Spirit ministry is received and all prayer and worship is directed:

107:0.3 (1176.3) God, having commanded man to be perfect, even as he is perfect, has descended as the Adjuster to become man’s experiential partner in the achievement of the supernal destiny which has been thus ordained. The fragment of God which indwells the mind of man is the absolute and unqualified assurance that man can find the Universal Father in association with this divine Adjuster, which came forth from God to find man and sonship him even in the days of the flesh.

107:4.7 (1181.3) Can you really realize the true significance of the Adjuster’s indwelling? Do you really fathom what it means to have an absolute fragment of the absolute and infinite Deity, the Universal Father, indwelling and fusing with your finite mortal natures? When mortal man fuses with an actual fragment of the existential Cause of the total cosmos, no limit can ever be placed upon the destiny of such an unprecedented and unimaginable partnership. In eternity, man will be discovering not only the infinity of the objective Deity but also the unending potentiality of the subjective fragment of this same God. Always will the Adjuster be revealing to the mortal personality the wonder of God, and never can this supernal revelation come to an end, for the Adjuster is of God and as God to mortal man.

110:1.1 (1203.3) Adjusters should not be thought of as living in the material brains of human beings. They are not organic parts of the physical creatures of the realms. The Thought Adjuster may more properly be envisaged as indwelling the mortal mind of man rather than as existing within the confines of a single physical organ. And indirectly and unrecognized the Adjuster is constantly communicating with the human subject, especially during those sublime experiences of the worshipful contact of mind with spirit in the superconsciousness.

111:2.9 (1218.7) This supernal transaction of evolving the immortal soul is made possible because the mortal mind is first personal and second is in contact with superanimal realities; it possesses a supermaterial endowment of cosmic ministry which insures the evolution of a moral nature capable of making moral decisions, thereby effecting a bona fide creative contact with the associated spiritual ministries and with the indwelling Thought Adjuster.

111:2.10 (1218.8) The inevitable result of such a contactual spiritualization of the human mind is the gradual birth of a soul, the joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe which are under the overcontrol of an actual fragment of the very God of all creation—the Mystery Monitor. And thus does the material and mortal reality of the self transcend the temporal limitations of the physical-life machine and attain a new expression and a new identification in the evolving vehicle for selfhood continuity, the morontia and immortal soul.


8)


And never be afraid to disagree with this tadpole or to help me gain a greater understanding and clearer insight into the Teachings of the UB....I really appreciate your perspective and patience in studying here together!


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
That is an excellent question. Paper 5, "God's Relation to the Individual," addresses this issue quite directly:

Quote:
5:3.4 (65.6) The moment the element of self-interest intrudes upon worship, that instant devotion translates from worship to prayer and more appropriately should be directed to the person of the Eternal Son or the Creator Son. But in practical religious experience there exists no reason why prayer should not be addressed to God the Father as a part of true worship.

5:3.5 (66.1) When you deal with the practical affairs of your daily life, you are in the hands of the spirit personalities having origin in the Third Source and Center; you are co-operating with the agencies of the Conjoint Actor. And so it is: You worship God; pray to, and commune with, the Son; and work out the details of your earthly sojourn in connection with the intelligences of the Infinite Spirit operating on your world and throughout your universe.


Paper 7, as well, provides even more clarity:

Quote:
7:3.3 (84.3) The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting the genuine prayers of the believing human heart from the level of human consciousness to the actual consciousness of Deity. That which represents true spiritual value in your petitions will be seized by the universal circuit of spirit gravity and will pass immediately and simultaneously to all divine personalities concerned. Each will occupy himself with that which belongs to his personal province. Therefore, in your practical religious experience, it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.


Excellent counsel from the Urantia Book Agon, thank you. All these answers and quotes have really cleared things up for me personally and I hope they have helped others as well.


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