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A forum for thought provoking questions & answers of a spiritual nature or as pertaining to the Urantia Papers.
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Sincere question

Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:51 am +0000

Is desiring to know Jesus enough to ensure survivability?

Re: Sincere question

Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:57 am +0000

It would be helpful if you could define what, exactly, you mean by the term "survivability".

If you mean, will a person who sincerely desires to know Jesus wake up (perhaps not immediately but at a dispensational roll call resurrection) on Mansion World #1? I think the answer is yes.

If you mean survive to the point of fusion with their Thought Adjuster and all the way to Havona? Not sure.

Personally, I think everyone except those who deliberately and consistently go against the will of God in this life will be resurrected. What happens after that is completely up to them. There are ample mercy credits for those who have lost their way in this life, as long as their desire to know God is sincere, I believe they will survive.

This has been the subject of much hotly contested differing views on this forum, though. Not everyone agrees with the perspective I have shared, above, as I'm sure you'll see soon ….

Re: Sincere question

Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:26 am +0000

Thanks! If it has already been discussed great. In my personal contact with people I try to encourage others to yield to that desire and to ask God to show them the way. If nothing else I think it is a great first step!

As far as defining survivability I meant if that desire is enough to carry someone forward in their eternal career

I had a "vision" one time of Jesus as a magnet. If there is a fragment of iron (like the TAs are a fragment of the Father) in us we are drawn to the magnet.

Re: Sincere question

Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:54 am +0000

Nice testimony. Important topics are frequently discussed by different students here over time which makes for a good reference tool and keeps topics fresh.

Papers 100 to 103 and 110 to 112. I also think that hopes, ideals, and faith assure survival. And faith we are taught is not what many think. The UB says knowledge and facts are not required for faith and religious experience...even false beliefs cannot erase the results of faith.

I think many survive who never heard of Jesus or do not hold Christian beliefs regarding the Master but are also faith children. Long before Jesus was here was faith and soul and soul survival.

I find the UB to be the greatest light of hope and assurance...good news...to ever be given to our world....since the Spirit of Truth.

As Agon D Onter says....others have far stricter beliefs of their own. Great topic for reading and study!

Love the magnet...very accurate vision. The spirit gravity circuit does attract all spirit reality to the Son!! The more spiritual we become the greater the attraction.


Re: Sincere question

Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:25 am +0000

fanofVan wrote:The more spiritual we become the greater the attraction.

Yup. That's when religion is in high gear.

Re: Sincere question

Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:43 am +0000

Pethuel wrote: "Thanks! If it has already been discussed great."

Oh! I hope you don't misunderstand me. I wasn't saying 'we've already talked about this so move on'. :-#

Not at all! I just wanted to make it clear that I realize that my perspective is but one of many here; and that everyone has equal opportunity to chime in with a different view. I think we could talk about this subject over and over again and never tire of it. It's a fascinating topic!

FanofVan wrote:

I think many survive who never heard of Jesus or do not hold Christian beliefs regarding the Master but are also faith children. Long before Jesus was here was faith and soul and soul survival.

That resonates with me as well. That was one of the things that made me realize TUB is the real deal - the fact that it states outright that being born in circumstances that do not enable opportunities to worship formally, or to be educated formally, does not prevent one from eternal life.

Re: Sincere question

Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:19 am +0000

Hello pethuel,

I don't think desire alone qualifies for survival but it is a prerequisite to it.

pethuel wrote:Is desiring to know Jesus enough to ensure survivability?

Re: Sincere question

Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:49 pm +0000

Agon D. Onter wrote:Pethuel wrote: "Thanks! If it has already been discussed great."

Oh! I hope you don't misunderstand me. I wasn't saying 'we've already talked about this so move on'. :-#

I didn't misunderstand, I was just glad it has already been discussed, happy to know others have had the same question.

Of course it is not for us to judge whether someone will survive and live on, I have always believed that the instant someone reaches out from their innermost being then the connection is made. No theological hoops to jump through.

Re: Sincere question

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:31 am +0000

Let's begin with the teaching that the Jesusonian Gospel delivered by Jesus in the Bible and the UB is not about Jesus.

5. What Must I Do to Be Saved?

150:5.1 (1682.3) One evening at Shunem, after John’s apostles had returned to Hebron, and after Jesus’ apostles had been sent out two and two, when the Master was engaged in teaching a group of twelve of the younger evangelists who were laboring under the direction of Jacob, together with the twelve women, Rachel asked Jesus this question: “Master, what shall we answer when women ask us, What shall I do to be saved?” When Jesus heard this question, he answered:

150:5.2 (1682.4) “When men and women ask what shall we do to be saved, you shall answer, Believe this gospel of the kingdom; accept divine forgiveness. By faith recognize the indwelling spirit of God, whose acceptance makes you a son of God. Have you not read in the Scriptures where it says, ‘In the Lord have I righteousness and strength.’ Also where the Father says, ‘My righteousness is near; my salvation has gone forth, and my arms shall enfold my people.’ ‘My soul shall be joyful in the love of my God, for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation and has covered me with the robe of his righteousness.’ Have you not also read of the Father that his name ‘shall be called the Lord our righteousness.’ ‘Take away the filthy rags of self-righteousness and clothe my son with the robe of divine righteousness and eternal salvation.’ It is forever true, ‘the just shall live by faith.’ Entrance into the Father’s kingdom is wholly free, but progress—growth in grace—is essential to continuance therein.

150:5.3 (1682.5) “Salvation is the gift of the Father and is revealed by his Sons. Acceptance by faith on your part makes you a partaker of the divine nature, a son or a daughter of God. By faith you are justified; by faith are you saved; and by this same faith are you eternally advanced in the way of progressive and divine perfection. By faith was Abraham justified and made aware of salvation by the teachings of Melchizedek. All down through the ages has this same faith saved the sons of men, but now has a Son come forth from the Father to make salvation more real and acceptable.”

150:5.4 (1683.1) When Jesus had left off speaking, there was great rejoicing among those who had heard these gracious words, and they all went on in the days that followed proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom with new power and with renewed energy and enthusiasm. And the women rejoiced all the more to know they were included in these plans for the establishment of the kingdom on earth.

150:5.5 (1683.2) In summing up his final statement, Jesus said: “You cannot buy salvation; you cannot earn righteousness. Salvation is the gift of God, and righteousness is the natural fruit of the spirit-born life of sonship in the kingdom. You are not to be saved because you live a righteous life; rather is it that you live a righteous life because you have already been saved, have recognized sonship as the gift of God and service in the kingdom as the supreme delight of life on earth. When men believe this gospel, which is a revelation of the goodness of God, they will be led to voluntary repentance of all known sin. Realization of sonship is incompatible with the desire to sin. Kingdom believers hunger for righteousness and thirst for divine perfection.”

Me here: Then we can consider the role of the Adjutants of Worship and Wisdom, evolutionary religious experience, faith and faith assurance, the birth of soul, revelatory truth ministry of the TA, truth and truth assurance, the psychic circles of spiritual progress, being born again, and eternal fusion....all distinctive elements to the mortal's religious experience as taught in the UB.

The goal is progress and fusion, not mere survival of soul as the highlighted text above says. The requirements for soul survival are in dispute among some students but the spiritual progress needed for eternal fusion seems to be of a more general consensus.


Re: Sincere question

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:41 am +0000

fanofVan wrote:
The goal is progress and fusion, not mere survival of soul as the highlighted text above says. The requirements for soul survival are in dispute among some students but the spiritual progress needed for eternal fusion seems to be of a more general consensus.


I agree, and I believe anyone who "opens the door" will progress, although some more slowly than others. That was a very good reference and answered my question completely! Thanks again!

Re: Sincere question

Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:22 am +0000

So, if I may tag on to this discussion with another question I have often pondered: what happens to an ascending mortal who is resurrected and progresses through the Mansion Worlds rather slowly; and what if they don't ever fuse with their adjuster? Do they just stay in 'school' forever? Or is there some limit after which they must continue to evolve spiritually or else their career is terminated?

Re: Sincere question

Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:58 am +0000

Can't copy and paste right now....but word search "Spirit fused" and read related quotes in Paper 40. Very interesting. Also 112:7.3. (I think) says some Father fused mortals do take a very long time while progressing through System, Constellation, and clear to Nebadon!

:idea: 8)

Back on computer:

112:7.3 (1237.5) Fusion with the Adjuster is usually effected while the ascender is resident within his local system. It may occur on the planet of nativity as a transcendence of natural death; it may take place on any one of the mansion worlds or on the headquarters of the system; it may even be delayed until the time of the constellation sojourn; or, in special instances, it may not be consummated until the ascender is on the local universe capital.

8. Son-Fused Mortals

40:8.1 (449.4) While practically all surviving mortals are fused with their Adjusters on one of the mansion worlds or immediately upon their arrival on the higher morontia spheres, there are certain cases of delayed fusion, some not experiencing this final surety of survival until they reach the last educational worlds of the universe headquarters; and a few of these mortal candidates for never-ending life utterly fail to attain identity fusion with their faithful Adjusters.

40:8.2 (449.5) Such mortals have been deemed worthy of survival by the adjudicational authorities, and even their Adjusters, by returning from Divinington, have concurred in their ascension to the mansion worlds. Such beings have ascended through a system, a constellation, and through the educational worlds of the Salvington circuit; they have enjoyed the “seventy times seven” opportunities for fusion and still have been unable to attain oneness with their Adjusters.

9. Spirit-Fused Mortals

40:9.1 (450.3) Ascending Spirit-fused mortals are not Third Source personalities; they are included in the Father’s personality circuit, but they have fused with individualizations of the premind spirit of the Third Source and Center. Such Spirit fusion never occurs during the span of natural life; it takes place only at the time of mortal reawakening in the morontia existence on the mansion worlds. In the fusion experience there is no overlapping; the will creature is either Spirit fused, Son fused, or Father fused. Those who are Adjuster or Father fused are never Spirit or Son fused.

40:9.2 (450.4) The fact that these types of mortal creatures are not Adjuster-fusion candidates does not prevent the Adjusters from indwelling them during the life in the flesh. Adjusters do work in the minds of such beings during the span of material life but never become everlastingly one with their pupil souls. During this temporary sojourn the Adjusters effectively build up the same spirit counterpart of mortal nature—the soul—that they do in the candidates for Adjuster fusion. Up to the time of mortal death the work of the Adjusters is wholly akin to their function in your own races, but upon mortal dissolution the Adjusters take eternal leave of these Spirit-fusion candidates and, proceeding directly to Divinington, the headquarters of all divine Monitors, there await the new assignments of their order.

40:9.3 (450.5) When such sleeping survivors are repersonalized on the mansion worlds, the place of the departed Adjuster is filled by an individualization of the spirit of the Divine Minister, the representative of the Infinite Spirit in the local universe concerned. This spirit infusion constitutes these surviving creatures Spirit-fused mortals. Such beings are in every way your equals in mind and spirit; and they are indeed your contemporaries, sharing the mansion and morontia spheres in common with your order of fusion candidates and with those who are to be Son fused.
Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:21 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Sincere question

Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:53 am +0000

2. Lesson on Self-Mastery

143:2.1 (1609.2) The Master was a perfected specimen of human self-control. When he was reviled, he reviled not; when he suffered, he uttered no threats against his tormentors; when he was denounced by his enemies, he simply committed himself to the righteous judgment of the Father in heaven.

143:2.2 (1609.3) At one of the evening conferences, Andrew asked Jesus: “Master, are we to practice self-denial as John taught us, or are we to strive for the self-control of your teaching? Wherein does your teaching differ from that of John?” Jesus answered: “John indeed taught you the way of righteousness in accordance with the light and laws of his fathers, and that was the religion of self-examination and self-denial. But I come with a new message of self-forgetfulness and self-control. I show to you the way of life as revealed to me by my Father in heaven.

143:2.3 (1609.4) “Verily, verily, I say to you, he who rules his own self is greater than he who captures a city. Self-mastery is the measure of man’s moral nature and the indicator of his spiritual development. In the old order you fasted and prayed; as the new creature of the rebirth of the spirit, you are taught to believe and rejoice. In the Father’s kingdom you are to become new creatures; old things are to pass away; behold I show you how all things are to become new. And by your love for one another you are to convince the world that you have passed from bondage to liberty, from death into life everlasting.

143:2.4 (1609.5) “By the old way you seek to suppress, obey, and conform to the rules of living; by the new way you are first transformed by the Spirit of Truth and thereby strengthened in your inner soul by the constant spiritual renewing of your mind, and so are you endowed with the power of the certain and joyous performance of the gracious, acceptable, and perfect will of God. Forget not—it is your personal faith in the exceedingly great and precious promises of God that ensures your becoming partakers of the divine nature. Thus by your faith and the spirit’s transformation, you become in reality the temples of God, and his spirit actually dwells within you. If, then, the spirit dwells within you, you are no longer bondslaves of the flesh but free and liberated sons of the spirit. The new law of the spirit endows you with the liberty of self-mastery in place of the old law of the fear of self-bondage and the slavery of self-denial.

143:2.5 (1609.6) “Many times, when you have done evil, you have thought to charge up your acts to the influence of the evil one when in reality you have but been led astray by your own natural tendencies. Did not the Prophet Jeremiah long ago tell you that the human heart is deceitful above all things and sometimes even desperately wicked? How easy for you to become self-deceived and thereby fall into foolish fears, divers lusts, enslaving pleasures, malice, envy, and even vengeful hatred!

143:2.6 (1610.1) “Salvation is by the regeneration of the spirit and not by the self-righteous deeds of the flesh. You are justified by faith and fellowshipped by grace, not by fear and the self-denial of the flesh, albeit the Father’s children who have been born of the spirit are ever and always masters of the self and all that pertains to the desires of the flesh. When you know that you are saved by faith, you have real peace with God. And all who follow in the way of this heavenly peace are destined to be sanctified to the eternal service of the ever-advancing sons of the eternal God. Henceforth, it is not a duty but rather your exalted privilege to cleanse yourselves from all evils of mind and body while you seek for perfection in the love of God.

143:2.7 (1610.2) “Your sonship is grounded in faith, and you are to remain unmoved by fear. Your joy is born of trust in the divine word, and you shall not therefore be led to doubt the reality of the Father’s love and mercy. It is the very goodness of God that leads men into true and genuine repentance. Your secret of the mastery of self is bound up with your faith in the indwelling spirit, which ever works by love. Even this saving faith you have not of yourselves; it also is the gift of God. And if you are the children of this living faith, you are no longer the bondslaves of self but rather the triumphant masters of yourselves, the liberated sons of God.

143:2.8 (1610.3) “If, then, my children, you are born of the spirit, you are forever delivered from the self-conscious bondage of a life of self-denial and watchcare over the desires of the flesh, and you are translated into the joyous kingdom of the spirit, whence you spontaneously show forth the fruits of the spirit in your daily lives; and the fruits of the spirit are the essence of the highest type of enjoyable and ennobling self-control, even the heights of terrestrial mortal attainment—true self-mastery.”

Re: Sincere question

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:18 pm +0000

Excellent points from everyone, thanks! So just to help clear this up in my mind, establish a milestone, so to speak:

So what is the experience of salvation then? There is the emotional side which as we know can not be trusted, but there is also that sublime feeling of knowing something has happened, there has been an unexplainable and undeniable change in your innermost being.
What exactly happens there?

Re: Sincere question

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:23 am +0000

pethuel wrote:Excellent points from everyone, thanks! So just to help clear this up in my mind, establish a milestone, so to speak:

So what is the experience of salvation then? There is the emotional side which as we know can not be trusted, but there is also that sublime feeling of knowing something has happened, there has been an unexplainable and undeniable change in your innermost being.
What exactly happens there?

The UB teaches that for some of us it is not dramatic or sudden but is gradual and natural, like the growth of a plant....we simply grow in the Spirit by responding to the Spirit in a very symbiotic responsiveness. For others, there are great moments of conflict and conversion delivered in passion and drama. Can work either way.

We are taught that the TA creates a yearn within...a hunger and a thirst. The TA also reveals truth and provides truth assurance which pleases, nourishes, and satisfies the yearn, hunger, and thirst. Doing right for right's sake becomes addictive in a way...there is immediate gratification and fruit. Over time such religious experience yields more and more fruit including happiness. There is a great and innate desire for happiness. Materialisms fail to satisfy and bring happiness. But the Spirit can and does deliver happiness and contentment and joy and peace of mind and patience and kindness and all the wonderful bounty of the Spirit. The gifts of God to the children of time.

We are also given curiosity and an adventurous spirit of discovery and learning. Progress is itself satisfying. As is learning new things and new skills and the improvement of skills and understanding. All very positive and in our nature. We are built to quest and to learn!

There are positive emotions we are taught...which are reliable. The emotions of love and service.

107:0.5 (1176.5) It is the Adjuster who creates within man that unquenchable yearning and incessant longing to be like God, to attain Paradise, and there before the actual person of Deity to worship the infinite source of the divine gift. The Adjuster is the living presence which actually links the mortal son with his Paradise Father and draws him nearer and nearer to the Father. The Adjuster is our compensatory equalization of the enormous universe tension which is created by the distance of man’s removal from God and by the degree of his partiality in contrast with the universality of the eternal Father.

103:2.1 (1130.6) Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness. A child has been in existence about nine months before it experiences birth. But the “birth” of religion is not sudden; it is rather a gradual emergence. Nevertheless, sooner or later there is a “birth day.” You do not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you have been “born again”—born of the Spirit. Many spiritual births are accompanied by much anguish of spirit and marked psychological perturbations, as many physical births are characterized by a “stormy labor” and other abnormalities of “delivery.” Other spiritual births are a natural and normal growth of the recognition of supreme values with an enhancement of spiritual experience, albeit no religious development occurs without conscious effort and positive and individual determinations. Religion is never a passive experience, a negative attitude. What is termed the “birth of religion” is not directly associated with so-called conversion experiences which usually characterize religious episodes occurring later in life as a result of mental conflict, emotional repression, and temperamental upheavals.

14:5.10 (159.6) Love of adventure, curiosity, and dread of monotony—these traits inherent in evolving human nature—were not put there just to aggravate and annoy you during your short sojourn on earth, but rather to suggest to you that death is only the beginning of an endless career of adventure, an everlasting life of anticipation, an eternal voyage of discovery.

14:5.11 (160.1) Curiosity—the spirit of investigation, the urge of discovery, the drive of exploration—is a part of the inborn and divine endowment of evolutionary space creatures. These natural impulses were not given you merely to be frustrated and repressed. True, these ambitious urges must frequently be restrained during your short life on earth, disappointment must be often experienced, but they are to be fully realized and gloriously gratified during the long ages to come.

44:6.5 (506.6) 3. The emotion designers. These enhancers and conservators of feeling are those who preserve the sentiments of morontia and the emotions of divinity for the study and edification of the children of time and for the inspiration and beautification of morontia progressors and advancing spirits.

101:5.9 (1110.12) Scientists assemble facts, philosophers co-ordinate ideas, while prophets exalt ideals. Feeling and emotion are invariable concomitants of religion, but they are not religion. Religion may be the feeling of experience, but it is hardly the experience of feeling. Neither logic (rationalization) nor emotion (feeling) is essentially a part of religious experience, although both may variously be associated with the exercise of faith in the furtherance of spiritual insight into reality, all according to the status and temperamental tendency of the individual mind.

8) Bradly
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