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Hey Brad,

"Being sensitive and responsive to human need creates genuine and lasting happiness, while such kindly attitudes safeguard the soul from the destructive influences of anger, hate, and suspicion."

fanofVan wrote:
....as I suspected

What was it you said? "Lighten up!"


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nod...I'm as light as a feather!! I have no quarrel with Diego and have no need or intention of convincing him of anything. We do discuss his theology as he has presented it as it compares/contrasts with the teachings in the UB which is what we share and study here together.

Since you have determined to insert yourself here and with advice to boot, I would comment that you, personally and often, also demonstrate a fear and law based philosophy of living very similar to Diego's. Always worried about what others are and are not doing (according to your perspective/beliefs) and, it appears to me, still struggling with that truth given by the Master I mentioned regarding the differences between doing right for the sake of right vs. doing what we are "supposed" to be doing to avoid extermination. Your obsession with survival and the fears you express about our survival indicate you have not yet embraced the teachings given in the UB and those of the Master in the scriptures.

God and the universe may be trusted. God's love rules the universes. Jesus came to live and die as a demonstration of that love and our destiny. None are condemned by belief or lack of belief on this world. The UB is such a bright light of comfort and confidence in our source and our destiny. It is a pity when any student has not yet discovered for themselves that sublime peace of mind which comes to all who embrace the reality of the universe...we are all the beloved children of God and his love has no end nor any requirement to receive it. Indeed we must embrace that love and grow in the Spirit to attain our potential to be fused with our God fragment.

It is still unfortunate that you refuse to answer questions asked or even respond to answers to the questions you have asked. Like Agon, I wonder if you have actually read the whole book and if you read it now or just find quotes by key word searches? I pray that the burdens of doubts and dark perspective and uncertainty will find relief nod.

34:6.7 (381.1) Those who have received and recognized the indwelling of God have been born of the Spirit. “You are the temple of God, and the spirit of God dwells in you.” It is not enough that this spirit be poured out upon you; the divine Spirit must dominate and control every phase of human experience.

34:6.8 (381.2) It is the presence of the divine Spirit, the water of life, that prevents the consuming thirst of mortal discontent and that indescribable hunger of the unspiritualized human mind. Spirit-motivated beings “never thirst, for this spiritual water shall be in them a well of satisfaction springing up into life everlasting.” Such divinely watered souls are all but independent of material environment as regards the joys of living and the satisfactions of earthly existence. They are spiritually illuminated and refreshed, morally strengthened and endowed.

34:6.9 (381.3) In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.

34:6.10 (381.4) The purpose of all this ministration is, “That you may be strengthened with power through His spirit in the inner man.” And all this represents but the preliminary steps to the final attainment of the perfection of faith and service, that experience wherein you shall be “filled with all the fullness of God,” “for all those who are led by the spirit of God are the sons of God.”

34:6.11 (381.5) The Spirit never drives, only leads. If you are a willing learner, if you want to attain spirit levels and reach divine heights, if you sincerely desire to reach the eternal goal, then the divine Spirit will gently and lovingly lead you along the pathway of sonship and spiritual progress. Every step you take must be one of willingness, intelligent and cheerful co-operation. The domination of the Spirit is never tainted with coercion nor compromised by compulsion.

34:6.12 (381.6) And when such a life of spirit guidance is freely and intelligently accepted, there gradually develops within the human mind a positive consciousness of divine contact and assurance of spirit communion; sooner or later “the Spirit bears witness with your spirit (the Adjuster) that you are a child of God.” Already has your own Thought Adjuster told you of your kinship to God so that the record testifies that the Spirit bears witness “with your spirit,” not to your spirit.

34:6.13 (381.7) The consciousness of the spirit domination of a human life is presently attended by an increasing exhibition of the characteristics of the Spirit in the life reactions of such a spirit-led mortal, “for the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.” Such spirit-guided and divinely illuminated mortals, while they yet tread the lowly paths of toil and in human faithfulness perform the duties of their earthly assignments, have already begun to discern the lights of eternal life as they glimmer on the faraway shores of another world; already have they begun to comprehend the reality of that inspiring and comforting truth, “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” And throughout every trial and in the presence of every hardship, spirit-born souls are sustained by that hope which transcends all fear because the love of God is shed abroad in all hearts by the presence of the divine Spirit.


:wink: :biggrin: :idea: :!: 8)


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Actually, BRAD, I was referring only to MY soul. I do not claim to know where yours will go, or anybody's for that matter, other than my own, or whether yours is guilty of commission of blasphemy or no. I only know about my own. Do not assume that which I did not imply. To ASS-U-ME only makes an ASS out of U and ME. And it gets neither of us very far in the end. Thank you, please!

I shall disagree with your statement about the history of Christianity. From earliest times, orthodox Christian thought ALWAYS stressed the need for a Redeeming Christ who died on the Cross for us. Starting with Paul himself, this has been clear to us. Ever since the NT was declared to be Scripture (at a council in Carthage in 181) these beliefs have been sacrosanct. To suggest otherwise is to simply deny reality.

Now, is it true that some heretics, who were clearly labeled as such by the Church, taught such beliefs? Of course it is. But they have always been regarded as separate from the True Church, and therefore either NOT Christian (in most cases), or clearly heterodox Christians (in a few cases).


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Thanks for the distinction Diego!! So, it is only your soul that is in danger by the UB? Good to know. And those who reject the doctrines of atonement, blood sacrifice of an innocent Son by his Father God, original sin, and hell and damnation and also study the UB are not jeopardizing our souls? Good to know and very generous....if confusing.

So when and how then did hell and damnation and suffering enter the doctrinal code of Christianity? Did Jesus speak of the subject even in the scriptures? Doesn't Christian mean "Christ-like"? Is there scripture of Jesus' words/teachings that describe atonement or hell or damnation? Since Paul is the source of your doctrine, why is it called after Christ? Didn't he teach? And preach? Just curious.

:roll:


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Hi Diego,

A lot of people believe the same as you do, and the stance of the Urantia Book is there's enough of Jesus in Christianity to immortalize it. You won't ever be alone with the beliefs you've expressed if you want them.

Most of the world doesn't believe Christian theology though. As a counterpoint to your view, here's why someone like myself who comes from the same Lutheranism you do doesn't believe it anymore. Theologically, the shift in view for me came partially from the Urantia Book, and it also came from living life and coming to better understand what love really is. Most surprising was to later come back to Biblical study and discover it's right in plain sight from Jesus there all along. Jesus taught salvation is obtained by loving and forgiving others. His commandment on the eve of his death was: love one another. Not: believe my Father is angry with you but it is okay since I'm taking the hit and I have this covered however you need to believe I have it covered otherwise no bueno, the Father is still angry with you.

Martin Luther taught sola scriptura -- scripture alone -- and that Jesus is God. The Urantia Book does also teach the deity of Jesus, repeatedly and quite unambigously. (It definitely doesn't teach that Jesus is an archangel. Creator Sons: 30:1.31. Archangels: 30:1.39. That they are different: 37:3.1.) If you don't wish to believe the Urantia Book teaches Jesus is God, that can be your perspective, but I haven't encountered a reader-believer of the book that shares it. Urantia Book believers think that Jesus and the Father are one. Three pages into the book it starts to teach the divinity of Creator Sons. Here is page 8: "Even God and man can coexist in a unified personality, as is so exquisitely demonstrated in the present status of Christ Michael." At 1:5.5: "If the faith of the creature were perfect, he would assuredly know that when he had seen a Creator Son he had seen the Universal Father; in seeking for the Father, he would not ask nor expect to see other than the Son."

There are a lot of quotes that could be posted. My point though isn't to quibble about it but so you can understand where I'm coming from in having discarded the theology of Lutheranism. I start with certainty in a belief about the divinity of Jesus—Son of Man and Son of God.

Apply that with the Martin Luther view of sola scriptura, and obviously I should look to find final answers from Jesus in looking for any answers in the Bible. If Jesus gives the answer to a question, it's the answer I am looking for.

You started this thread asking what was the significance of the cross? Why did Jesus die?

Jesus directly tells us in the Bible why he should leave:

Quote:
"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:5-7)

I accept Jesus' answer. He had a room of very confused apostles at the end of his life, and he directly provided the reason for him to leave. The doctrine of the atonement did not exist in the apostles' minds at the Last Supper. Am I to think Jesus failed in his ministry so badly that he forgot to tell them and drive home in their minds that supposedly crucial doctrine during the 3+ years they lived and traveled together? Or was it that it wasn't his doctrine to begin with? I've concluded the second is very obviously the case from study of the gospels. I re-read them every year or two and they are wonderful. The apostles had no belief or formulated concept of Jesus dying. It was incomprehensible to them, and they think he's talking figuratively. Jesus knows that they can't fathom that he will die, much less do they have a reason he will die.

So he explains. Jesus teaches that he has to leave and it's for their benefit because he can then send the Spirit of Truth. From a belief in Jesus' authority as Son of God, I accept and believe this is the reason his death was good for us. Nothing more and nothing less.

There's but one supreme commandment from Jesus to be a follower of his, and it's to love others as he loves us. I accept this is the commandment to be a follower of Jesus. I'm excluded from being a part of your concept of an apostolic catholic church because I take Jesus' words in scripture at face value.

It's okay that I'm not in your apostolic catholic church. I'm in a universal brotherhood and family under an eternal creator Father. You don't think its possible to be saved unless there is acceptance of extra terms and conditions put in the Bible by people who aren't Jesus. Jesus taught instead about what men think is "impossible":
Quote:
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I think Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and non-categorized strays like me can be saved and often are saved, just as they are in their beliefs. To know how to love selflessly and forgive others is to know how to be saved.

There are just two very slim flimsy reeds of scripture in the four gospels to hang all the ponderous convoluted human concepts of the atonement theology onto Jesus. One is Mark 10 and as fanOfVan has pointed out that's not especially certain. The other is Matthew 26:27, when Jesus establishes communion, supposedly he said that his blood is shed "for the remission of sins." Mark 14:24, however, recording the exact same scene, doesn't. Neither does Luke 22:20. If you'd like to pick Matthew 26:27 as what was said, go ahead, I don't fault you. I pick Mark and Luke, which you can't fault me for either.

Overwhelming these two fragments of sentences of underdeveloped theology is that Jesus taught clearly repeatedly and consistently how to obtain remission of sins:
Quote:
Matthew 6:14-15 -- "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Matthew 18:34-35 -- "...In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.""

Mark 11:25 -- "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Luke 6:37 -- "Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Luke 11:4 -- "Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us." (Lord's Prayer)

I accept Jesus' teachings on how sins are forgiven, nothing more or less. In believing Jesus' teachings as the cardinal and entire way to obtain forgiveness from the Father, I'm not a Christian.

Jesus taught that the reason it was good for us that he would die was so that he could send the Spirit of Truth to be an inner teacher. Jesus did not teach that sola scriptura will lead us to all truth -- he taught us that the inner Spirit of Truth will. I believe his teachings, and it means I'm no longer a Lutheran.

And I've found there's amazingly abundant truth and life in what Jesus taught us: "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:31-32)

tas


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I never really 'got' the atonement doctrine (in my Catholic upbringing) so it was easy for me to drop it.

In a Urantia forum there's not much point in arguing for it though.
You might as well be pushing reincarnation ---the answer will always be "the book says otherwise"

I've read these (recent) books by Gary Renard where claims to have visits from a man and woman who used to be Jesus' disciples (Thomas and Thaddeus) and they also dismiss the atonement doctrine AND

they also say that early Christians gave too much weight to the writings of Paul
(its inspiring stuff but not "gospel" and he wasn't Jesus or 'divine' or anything special)

I always had that feeling as well whenever some tries to quote something from Corinthians or other writings of Paul: in my mind I'm thinking "he wasn't Jesus"

Thanks also to the other poster who pointed-out that we really don't have Jesus saying "my death is some kind of atonement/sacrifice thingy"


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Hello to forum participants, I am new to you. I recall that Jesus told of the rich man who would have to stand in line behind the camel to pass through the eye of the needle and enter the Kingdom. Perhaps it is the heavy burden of theological baggage, soaked with self righteousness, that stands as a stumbling block to the Kingdom of God. There are material riches and then there are religious riches. As Mr tas has posted, love and forgiveness are simple and light.


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fanofVan wrote:
Thanks for the distinction Diego!! So, it is only your soul that is in danger by the UB? Good to know. And those who reject the doctrines of atonement, blood sacrifice of an innocent Son by his Father God, original sin, and hell and damnation and also study the UB are not jeopardizing our souls? Good to know and very generous....if confusing.

So when and how then did hell and damnation and suffering enter the doctrinal code of Christianity? Did Jesus speak of the subject even in the scriptures? Doesn't Christian mean "Christ-like"? Is there scripture of Jesus' words/teachings that describe atonement or hell or damnation? Since Paul is the source of your doctrine, why is it called after Christ? Didn't he teach? And preach? Just curious.

:roll:


Christ does in fact speak of Hellfire, yes. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in the Scriptures more than once, as is also the reference to outer darkness where there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth. As to whether it is only my soul in danger by the UB, its not a question as to whether you are endangering your souls. Its a question of whether its any of my business or not. I don't personally think it is.

TAS, the problem with the UB's ideas regarding Jesus is that there are MANY Creator Sons, each Local Universe has one. Even if Jesus is regarded as divine, he is NOT unique. He is one of many. This is in contradistinction to Jesus in Christianity, in which he is the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, Begotten of his Father before all Worlds. There can be only ONE Jesus, only ONE Christ. He created the ENTIRE Universe (using that word in the modern sense, as in all of Creation and all that therein lives).

To argue that Paul is any less Scripture than Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John is tomfoolery. None of those four were Jesus either. If we accept that they were inspired by God, we are accepting the decision of the Church. The Church decided in 181 at the Council of Carthage that those four Gospels, out of ALL the Gospels written, were Scripture, and the other ones were not. They ALSO decided that the sixteen letters of Paul were Scripture. To suggest that they were right about the Four Gospels and wrong about Paul is simply illogical.

GBV, It is somewhat understandable that a Roman Catholic would find it easier to drop the Atonement concept than a Lutheran would. Having been raised a Roman Catholic/Anglican, the Romanists are, to be objective, semi-Pelagian, or near to it, though they themselves would deny it. Although they accept the Atonement concept as necessary, they tend to emphasise the idea that man can of his own will turn toward God, without the Grace of Christ providing man with that will.

Furthermore, Luther taught more than Scripture Alone. In fact he taught By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Scripture Alone. None of this negates the Catholicity of the Church, of course.

So, ultimately, you must deny ALL Scripture, or none of it. You can either reject the Gospels and Paul, or you must accept them both. The choice is yours.


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actually one of the most plausible translations of "begotten" used in John, the greek "monogenesis", is UNIQUE and each Creator Son is unique too...

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But each Creator Son is different from every other; each is unique in nature as well as in personality; each is the “only-begotten Son” of the perfect deity ideal of his origin.


Last edited by Makalu on Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:44 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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Diego wrote:
So, ultimately, you must deny ALL Scripture, or none of it. You can either reject the Gospels and Paul, or you must accept them both. The choice is yours.


Hello Diego,
Is this your attitude also, more specifically, with regard to Old Testament and New Testaments?

Is it, "an eye for an eye", or is it, "love your enemies"? Do you accept both or do you reject both? And by accepting or rejecting these two mandates, how will you act?


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toto wrote:
Diego wrote:
So, ultimately, you must deny ALL Scripture, or none of it. You can either reject the Gospels and Paul, or you must accept them both. The choice is yours.


Hello Diego,
Is this your attitude also, more specifically, with regard to Old Testament and New Testaments?

Is it, "an eye for an eye", or is it, "love your enemies"? Do you accept both or do you reject both? And by accepting or rejecting these two mandates, how will you act?


This one is easy. We all know that the New Law triumphs over the Old Law. The New Israel of God is the Church. Christians are subject to the Laws Moral, and not the Laws Ceremonial, or the Laws Judicial. Its really pretty basic.

Makalu wrote:
actually one of the most plausible translations of "begotten" used in John, the greek "monogenesis", is UNIQUE and each Creator Son is unique too...


Citation needed.

Quote:
Quote:
But each Creator Son is different from every other; each is unique in nature as well as in personality; each is the “only-begotten Son” of the perfect deity ideal of his origin.


They may be unique in nature like a human is unique in nature from another human. But both are still humans. To suggest that there is any real distinctive difference between one Creator Son and another is, to be straight, disingenuous at best.


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lol @ citation needed...feel free to start with wikipedia then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogenēs

nothing disingenuous about it...the Creator Sons all exhibit distinct levels of resemblance to either the Father or Son, each is unique, diverse, exclusive, and original in nature and personality and their individual creations and its inhabitants are also unique and distinct from each other.

disingenuous would be more like when a person claims it took them three years of study to figure out that the UB doesnt support their pet beliefs


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Makalu wrote:
lol @ citation needed...feel free to start with wikipedia then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogenēs


Two things. One, Wikipedia states that there is no article under that designation. Two, even if there was, Wikipedia is not generally accepted as a valid source by college or graduate school professors, or for that matter, by most high school teachers. Ergo, I shall not accept it either, since I expect you to hold to similar standards of scholarship. I have been a Professor myself, and holding a MA myself, I expect academic acumen to some degree of quality. Wikipedia, I am afraid, does NOT count.

Quote:
nothing disingenuous about it...the Creator Sons all exhibit distinct levels of resemblance to either the Father or Son, each is unique, diverse, exclusive, and original in nature and personality and their individual creations and its inhabitants are also unique and distinct from each other.


Actually, that is an illogical statement. Again, Creator Sons are alike insofar as they are all of a species. The fact that they exhibit differences one from another is simply a matter of two peas. Your point?

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disingenuous would be more like when a person claims it took them three years of study to figure out that the UB doesnt support their pet beliefs


This is an illogical and almost stupid thing to say. The point of spending three years with the text was not to make it conform to my beliefs. The point was to see whether there was ANY justification for its beliefs at all. The answer is simple: No. The UB claims to have been "written", for lack of a better word, by Angels. I submit to you that this is not true.

The question that took three years to answer was whether or not orthodox Christianity had more claim to truth than the UB or vice versa. I knew the two could not be harmonised. I have reached a conclusion on the matter. It is really that simple.


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uh huh...you could have found the info at wikipedia and material on the subject written elsewhere yourself if you simply type monogenes into a search engine but that would be the act of a genuine truth seeker which you arent and i already told you i'm not striving with a complacent mind

claiming it took three years to decide between TUB and orthodox christianity doesnt really wash IMO either since the acid test is your pet beliefs and the sections covering your pet beliefs are easy to find


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Makalu wrote:
uh huh...you could have found the info at wikipedia and material on the subject written elsewhere yourself if you simply type monogenes into a search engine but that would be the act of a genuine truth seeker which you arent and i already told you i'm not striving with a complacent mind


My, my, what pissed in YOUR Cheerios this morning?

Quote:
claiming it took three years to decide between TUB and orthodox christianity doesnt really wash IMO either since the acid test is your pet beliefs and the sections covering your pet beliefs are easy to find


Your opinion isn't really relevant, thank you, please.


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