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Makalu wrote:
Diego wrote:
Making an argument like that, and not bothering to defend it, is a sign of just how pompous you really are.


no, it's a "sign" that i've no interest in debating this theology with you...just as i said


Or more likely your lack of ABILITY to debate this theology with me.

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Its not silly at all. Its showing you exactly what you don't know about an institution that is over 2 millennia in age, and will be here like a rock long after you and I are both dogmeat.


erm no again, your inability to distinguish between the meaning of "can be" and "is", between potential and actual, doesn't really say anything at all about what i do or don't know about the institution. But you manage to make your point despite the lack of logic. g'luck


A distinction w/o a difference, as you well know.


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Diego wrote:
Or more likely your lack of ABILITY to debate this theology with me.


look you can't goad me into rehashing the questions of my youth with you and i'm sure you have nothing to say that i've not heard before. and i knew when you said in your first post that you didnt want to debate the theology that you were lying...

Diego wrote:

A distinction w/o a difference, as you well know.


uhm what i know is that the tension, the difference if you will, between potential and actual is the underlying dynamics of the cosmos and not the dichotomy of good and evil expressed in church dogma. final answer


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Makalu wrote:
Diego wrote:
Or more likely your lack of ABILITY to debate this theology with me.


look you can't goad me into rehashing the questions of my youth with you and i'm sure you have nothing to say that i've not heard before. and i knew when you said in your first post that you didnt want to debate the theology that you were lying...


I would have had no interest, until you insulted the Church. If I had done likewise to the UB, you would have reacted similarly, I expect. That is a good way to get ANYONE'S dander up.

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A distinction w/o a difference, as you well know.


uhm what i know is that the tension, the difference if you will, between potential and actual is the underlying dynamics of the cosmos and not the dichotomy of good and evil expressed in church dogma. final answer


That simply makes no sense, and represents a non-response. Otherwise known as the Logical Fallacy designated as Non-Sequitor. It does not follow that...


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meh you've called reading the UB blasphemy and a danger to your soul and i forget what else and i dont care. nobody here cares....we've seen this act before.

let me simplify it for you...there is a difference between "can be" and "is"...a big difference


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And yet, does not the UB itself function as Scripture, more or less, for you? You have just substituted one Book for another.


Diego, the "truth" in your statements seems to be based on both scripture and tradition and in such an arena it is quite normal to assign your understanding of my "theology base" to the Urantia Book as an alternative, right or wrong, to your view. I would be willing to concede viewpoint equality if we were discussing theological authoritarianism. I am not attempting to do that so please appreciate that point.

My "theology" is not based on the Urantia Book exclusively nor is it based on any "scripture".

One of the most confusing issues in Christianity is that of authority. The Urantia Book explains that the actual authority of an individual's faith, trust, hope, salvation, journey, ascension to Paradise and any other expression of success relative to our eternal walk with God is always and only, personal experience. Even your view of authority is based on the fact of Paul's experience on the Damascus Road. Had he not known that experience he would never have been in a position to write the Epistles. But the traditions of men, not the revelations of God are responsible for Christianity's view that personal experience ended with him, effectively sealing the book of spiritual history and forcing every believer who would ever follow Jesus to follow Paul as well.

Here is a hard saying for those who, like you, assume the value of this belief. It isn't true, it isn't real. I know from personal experience. The Urantia Book ascribes personal religious (spiritual) experience as the ultimate authority. The Bible is a compendium of the stories of people who have had personal experiences with God as well. If it wasn't there would be nothing of interest in it. Once a person begins to actually experience the reality of God in their soul and matures to the point of actual comprehension of that living interchange, no amount of logic, fear of failure or trust in prior beliefs will undermine that experiential faith. I know because I know, period.

For me the church and tradition are to be respected as long as they do not interfere with my personal experiential walk with God. Just recently I was privileged to experience a friend take his first real step in his realization of the comprehension of personal experience. What a joy to see the freedom he has begun to realize. It was like watching a hot air balloonist release his ties. For him, God is his guide, his authority. Does that mean he doesn't appreciate scripture? Heavens no! He loves it more because he now is free to really explore it as a participant rather than an observer.

And just so you are aware, when I met Jesus I was an agnostic with no belief system what-so-ever. I had never heard of the Urantia Book and had never read the Bible. I found and was found by God because I wanted to know the TRUTH. My discovery was not book related nor was it religious. I was simply willing to hear God's explanation of things. My conversion experience was the beginning of my exploration into religions and books about religions. I have attended Bible college and been a minister. I studied religion from the inside all the while knowing that what made any of the claims of any version of religion valid was personal experience on the part of one individual or another, as was mine.

So no I do not regard the Urantia Book as "Scripture" by your definition. But it is the Fifth Epochal Revelation and that ain't nothin'.

Jim


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Jim George wrote:
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And yet, does not the UB itself function as Scripture, more or less, for you? You have just substituted one Book for another.


Diego, the "truth" in your statements seems to be based on both scripture and tradition and in such an arena it is quite normal to assign your understanding of my "theology base" to the Urantia Book as an alternative, right or wrong, to your view. I would be willing to concede viewpoint equality if we were discussing theological authoritarianism. I am not attempting to do that so please appreciate that point.

My "theology" is not based on the Urantia Book exclusively nor is it based on any "scripture".

One of the most confusing issues in Christianity is that of authority. The Urantia Book explains that the actual authority of an individual's faith, trust, hope, salvation, journey, ascension to Paradise and any other expression of success relative to our eternal walk with God is always and only, personal experience.


So, in other words, anyone thinks what they like. Charming.

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Even your view of authority is based on the fact of Paul's experience on the Damascus Road. Had he not known that experience he would never have been in a position to write the Epistles. But the traditions of men, not the revelations of God are responsible for Christianity's view that personal experience ended with him, effectively sealing the book of spiritual history and forcing every believer who would ever follow Jesus to follow Paul as well.


The Church follows Paul because Paul followed the 12. Had he not, his own Vision on the Road to Damascus would have rightly been deemed fallacious.

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Here is a hard saying for those who, like you, assume the value of this belief. It isn't true, it isn't real. I know from personal experience. The Urantia Book ascribes personal religious (spiritual) experience as the ultimate authority.


So, in other words, the UB has become a Scripture. Thank you for telling me. But I think I said that.

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The Bible is a compendium of the stories of people who have had personal experiences with God as well. If it wasn't there would be nothing of interest in it. Once a person begins to actually experience the reality of God in their soul and matures to the point of actual comprehension of that living interchange, no amount of logic, fear of failure or trust in prior beliefs will undermine that experiential faith. I know because I know, period.

For me the church and tradition are to be respected as long as they do not interfere with my personal experiential walk with God. Just recently I was privileged to experience a friend take his first real step in his realization of the comprehension of personal experience. What a joy to see the freedom he has begun to realize. It was like watching a hot air balloonist release his ties. For him, God is his guide, his authority. Does that mean he doesn't appreciate scripture? Heavens no! He loves it more because he now is free to really explore it as a participant rather than an observer.


You set up two dangers by the above. One, you allow a freedom that is not true freedom, but by denial of the proper role of the Scripture and rejection of the Church, allows for pretty much anything. Experiential walk with God? What does that even mean without discipline?

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And just so you are aware, when I met Jesus I was an agnostic with no belief system what-so-ever. I had never heard of the Urantia Book and had never read the Bible.


So, in other words, you, like many Americans, were unchurched. This is not unusual.

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I found and was found by God because I wanted to know the TRUTH. My discovery was not book related nor was it religious. I was simply willing to hear God's explanation of things. My conversion experience was the beginning of my exploration into religions and books about religions. I have attended Bible college and been a minister. I studied religion from the inside all the while knowing that what made any of the claims of any version of religion valid was personal experience on the part of one individual or another, as was mine.


The problem with that statement is that ANYONE can claim personal experience, and many have, and have come up with some AWFULLY weird ideas as a result thereof. I am sure you know of a few. Jim Jones. The Wacko in Waco. Joseph Smith, Jr, who, whilst not a murderous crazy SOB was still pretty far gone in his own unique way.

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So no I do not regard the Urantia Book as "Scripture" by your definition. But it is the Fifth Epochal Revelation and that ain't nothin'.
Jim


In other words, its Scripture. The Fifth Epochal Revelation. What else do you, can you, call it?


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(164:1.1) "Teacher, I would like to ask you just what I should do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered, "What is written in the law and the prophets; how do you read the Scriptures?" The lawyer, knowing the teachings of both Jesus and the Pharisees, answered: "To love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." Then said Jesus: "You have answered right; this, if you really do, will lead to life everlasting."

There isn't anything more to it than that Diego. And if you really do it, you become certain that it is true.

Because personally experiencing this love with God has the authority that just reading scripture or text lacks.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
(164:1.1) "Teacher, I would like to ask you just what I should do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered, "What is written in the law and the prophets; how do you read the Scriptures?" The lawyer, knowing the teachings of both Jesus and the Pharisees, answered: "To love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." Then said Jesus: "You have answered right; this, if you really do, will lead to life everlasting."

There isn't anything more to it than that Diego. And if you really do it, you become certain that it is true.

Because personally experiencing this love with God has the authority that just reading scripture or text lacks.


And all you did was quote a slightly altered quotation of one of the Gospels. So... your point?


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Diego wrote:
So... your point?

The authority of personal spiritual experience always trumps the so-called authority of scripture or creed. This is why certain individuals (prophets) were always fearless to authoritatively reveal the realities of God, which usually led the church to murder them. This is the beauty of the Urantia Book by the way, it reveals but can't be murdered.

Diego, the authority of what we're discussing here will only become real, because of what you do, unchurched as you say.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Diego wrote:
So... your point?

The authority of personal spiritual experience always trumps the so-called authority of scripture or creed. This is why certain individuals (prophets) were always fearless to authoritatively reveal the realities of God, which usually led the church to murder them. This is the beauty of the Urantia Book by the way, it reveals but can't be murdered.


If that were indeed the case, then those who claim to channel further revelations than just the Urantia Book would not be regarded as they cranks that they are so regarded as in the UB Movement. And again, you haven't addressed my point. Personal spiritual experience has gotten a lot of people into a considerable amount of trouble, has it not?

Now, I do NOT begin to dispute with you that a man may have personal experiences with God.To deny that would just be the height of stupidity. But those experiences must be within the discipline of the Church. To go outside that discipline is to withdraw oneself from the community of the faithful, living experience with Christ.

In fact, the fault of the Urantia Book is that it claims to be extra-Biblical, extra-curricular revelation. If this is true, then why not accept the Book of Mormon, or the writings of Ellen White (founder of the Seventh Day Adventist Church), or the Key to Science and Health (Christian Science), or any number of other texts? If the UB, why NOT these others?

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Diego, the authority of what we're discussing here will only become real, because of what you do, unchurched as you say.


Ah, what?


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Diego wrote:
Now, I do NOT begin to dispute with you that a man may have personal experiences with God.To deny that would just be the height of stupidity. But those experiences must be within the discipline of the Church.

Diego, church discipline burdens. Self-discipline sets you free.


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Diego,

Each of us must make many decisions in our lives regarding many things. We also must recognize, even if very faintly, the guidance of our spirit. We do this by appreciating the value of that guidance. If we have a clear conceptualization we may have a greater appreciation of the value of God. If the recognition of our guidance is truly faint we may have very little appreciation of the true value. This process we all do. But there is more. The more we recognize the guidance the more we are willing to assign these experiential value recognitions to specific practices and subsequent beliefs. From that point on we find others who share our practices and beliefs and many times cease in our searching for greater value recognition. But value recognition is the source of spirit awareness. Spirit awareness is what we all inherently desire. Spirit awareness is how we grow spiritually. Each of us must be willing to seek that guidance or we do not grow. The process is created for us not designed by us. We must be willing to follow God.

I know you place Lutheranism at the top of the religious food chain. Fine, but don't let that interfere with your willingness to follow God's guidance in your own heart and soul, and that is personal spiritual experience.

Now just a word about experience. Your objections to my using experience are interfering with your comprehension of truth. There is no human explanation of the value of religion perceived by an individual that does not draw as its only support, the fact of experience. Belief in something is an experience. It requires a decision and that decision is a personal experience. You choose to believe in Lutheranism it is not mechanical. So identify your own process and take control of your responsibility in that regard. Choose to do right, choose to do good, choose to know truth and choose to know God. Practice your religion all you want but keep your relationship with God real and personal.

Seek truth and understanding will follow; seek understanding and you may end up anywhere. I have Baptist friends here in North Dakota who actually believe the world was created less than 15,000 years ago and God did it in 7 calendar days. I don't tell them they are wrong. All I can tell them is to seek truth, God is truth. I believe he is quite capable of correcting them, if they need correction and don't seek it from me, as they learn to appreciate greater and greater depths of God's guidance.

Jesus always maintained that our focus must be on following his Father and that we do that by seeking truth, goodness and righteousness and as we do that we find practices and beliefs that support our journey. But we must not allow the practices and beliefs to direct our journey. We will never be held accountable for anything other than our own choices. Salvation is a matter of taking ownership of each personal character issue and turning it over to God.

Practice whatever religion you choose but always and forever "keep the main thing, the main thing" because that is the main thing.

Jim


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Diego,

The Urantia Book does not claim to be extra-Biblical -- it is extra-Biblical. If you choose to believe the Bible and to align your beliefs with Church doctrine, that's okay. Despite what it might seem like here, for the most part Urantia Book students are content with believers believing, whether they believe TUB or not. Faith and belief are personal choices, not absolutes. Truth is also relative, not absolute.

And "why not accept the Book of Mormon, or the writings of Ellen White (founder of the Seventh Day Adventist Church), or the Key to Science and Health (Christian Science), or any number of other texts? If the UB, why NOT these others?" There's good reason why. When one finds truth sought for and believes that truth, faith in that truth develops. It's unlikely that one will believe a lesser truth once a higher truth is discovered.

As a youth, Jesus expanded his knowledge and his belief by attending Jewish school, learning the scriptures. His quest was to know the Father better. He recognized that there were flaws or inconsistencies or deficiency in the scriptures, but he didn't condemn them or disbelieve them all... for they do contain relative truth. He did, however, look outside of what the scriptures provided and followed his inner guidance. Had he not done so he might have become a Jewish rabi, worn a phylactery, adopted the rituals of the Jewish religion, preached from the Torah. His personal religious experience was above all of that -- would he have ever gone back to his childhood days when the scriptures provide the meaning he was searching for then? Of course not. Nor will you nor will I.

If you're content with your belief, if your deepest questions have been adequately addressed by your church affiliation, then God has blessed you. And if that's the case then you don't understand what TUB is, what it says, or why it's here and are therefore unqualified to critique it intelligently because your vision is limited. Therefore to condemn or disparage it to its believers is evidence of a form of spiritual immaturity. God loves the immature as well as the more mature but mortals are challenged when confronted in such a manner.

Best wishes,
Larry


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Diego wrote:
Now, I do NOT begin to dispute with you that a man may have personal experiences with God.To deny that would just be the height of stupidity. But those experiences must be within the discipline of the Church.

Diego, church discipline burdens. Self-discipline sets you free.


Who defines "Self Discipline"? The average American today, for example, is about as disciplined as a feral dog. You and I both know it, if we but care to admit it to ourselves. The very fact that a huge population of the United States would seriously consider voting for a person (Hillary Clinton) who has committed crimes against the State that are worthy of her being placed in a prison cell, or even executed, and yet many persons want to see her elected to the highest office in the land,should be a serious indicator of how UNdisciplined we have become.

And lest you start calling me to task for partisanship, I don't care if you choose to vote for Trump, or Gary Johnson, the Libertarian nominee who is poised to take the State of New Mexico, or any other 3rd Party candidate for that matter, or even turn in a blank ballot as a protest vote against the whole system. But the fact that many people are willing to see a criminal who has managed to get people killed, aside from misusing classified information (if a military man did that he would end up in Ft. Leavenworth), the fact that people are willing to see her as President shows the APPALLING lack of discipline, self or other, that this country and its citizens have.

So speaking to me of Self Discipline, which is entirely subjective, is entirely unconvincing. It is only through the discipline of the Holy Church of God that we can see our way forward as a people, as a race, as corporate body of individuals bound together in a mutual disciplinary pact.

Now, as regards the following posts, that were NOT here when I started writing this one, I shall handle them now. First off, Larry, I disagree that Truth is Relative. Truth is, and must be, Absolute. Although I am for Freedom of Religion as much as the next man, Let's face it, we can't ALL be right. If I am right, then the UB is not. If the UB is right, then I am not. The two are mutually exclusive of each other.

As to whether the UB is extra-Biblical or simply claims to be will depend on your Faith in it or lack thereof. If it was written by Angels, as it claims, then it IS obviously extra-Biblical. If not, well, then it is a human work.

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If you're content with your belief, if your deepest questions have been adequately addressed by your church affiliation, then God has blessed you. And if that's the case then you don't understand what TUB is, what it says, or why it's here and are therefore unqualified to critique it intelligently because your vision is limited. Therefore to condemn or disparage it to its believers is evidence of a form of spiritual immaturity. God loves the immature as well as the more mature but mortals are challenged when confronted in such a manner.


I agree with your first statement, which is underlined above. I disagree whole-heartedly with your second statement, which I have placed in bold. To suggest that my failure to agree with the Urantia Book means I do not understand it is frankly, an insult to my intelligence, which I do not take kindly, or lightly. I could make the same argument to you. In fact I shall do so, just so you can hear how absurd it sounds.

"If you're content with your belief, if your deepest questions have been adequately addressed by your belief in the UB, then God has blessed you. And if that's the case then you don't understand what the Lutheran Church and the Bible are, what they say, or why they are here and are therefore unqualified to critique them intelligently because your vision is limited. Therefore to condemn or disparage them to their believers is evidence of spiritual immaturity."

That having been said, I do not condemn the UB. In fact, there is actually much in the text that I find very beneficial, to be honest, as strange as that may sound to you, given our current conversation. But, in the end-all and the be-all, when it all comes out in the wash at the end of the day, the discipline of Faith must dominate over the discipline of emotion.

And as JIM GEORGE said, one day we will all sit in Heaven, or in the Mansion Worlds if you are all right, and have a good laugh about the whole thing!


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Well....it appears Diego does want a theological discussion after all....as I suspected and posted early on.

I also gave a list of creeds related to the atonement doctrine which would also require consideration/justification such as original sin, the fall of man, the inherent sinfulness of humanity, etc. But Diego brings up another in his rejection of the UB as blasphemous and a danger to his very soul.

Such a fear would indicate that the atonement doctrine has no impact or effect on the world or its people unless and until they claim this creedal belief and those who do not know of this doctrine or know of it but fail to believe it or those who even believe it but do not truly embrace and act upon this doctrine.....are doomed to damnation and eternal suffering. So Diego has now added damnation and hell fire to that list of beliefs and doctrines which his theology dictates to and for him. This is an interesting issue: the redemption and atonement was not universal but only for those very select and few who know of and embrace this doctrine....it's apparently a kind of hit and miss redemption by blood sacrifice.

This would be another bastardization of scripture (not just the UB) - both the Judaic and the early Christian doctrines did not teach of a god which inflicted eternal suffering to those who are ignorant of or in disbelief of such a doctrine. Hell is the original FEAR BASED manipulation of the priesthood and the church over their members.

So Diego is here to present and defend original sin, the fall of mankind, the inherent sinfulness of humanity, the blood sacrifice of the Son of God by God himself as a form of planetary redemption, except for those who do not believe this fable, who will go to hell and suffer eternally.

These are the very reasons I rejected the church/doctrines of my youth, long before finding the UB, and it was the scriptures themselves which led me to believe in and have faith in the Jesusonian Gospel of a loving and paternal Creator/Father in whom we may have full faith and love and confidence in his love and mercy. My philosophy of living was formulated around those teachings of the Master in the NT, especially one in particular that took many years to come to appreciate and fully embrace: do right for right's sake. Do not do right to avoid punishment but do right for the inherent benefits, goodness, truth, beauty, love, and the outcomes within and without that are to be derived by doing right for right's sake - the motive of the pure heart.

In the scriptures Jesus demonstrates the slavery and suffering of those who cling to these laws and the fear of God and the true liberation that spirit led motives, intentions, and choices deliver to all faith children who abide in love - not those who are enslaved by law!

So, while Jim so graciously stated his confidence in meeting up with his fellow pilgrim Diego on the Mansion Worlds, Diego has no such belief that we are going to the same place he is due to our embrace of blasphemy which jeopardizes our very souls!

A reasonable conclusion would be that Diego is here to save us all from eternal damnation and suffering. I appreciate his concern but please Diego, trouble yourself not for my salvation and eternal adventure as my confidence in my personal relationship with Father and the Master and my faith in their goodness and love has been with me for well over 50 years. Have you faith? Then have it to yourself!

99:5.7 (1091.6) Just as certainly as men share their religious beliefs, they create a religious group of some sort which eventually creates common goals. Someday religionists will get together and actually effect co-operation on the basis of unity of ideals and purposes rather than attempting to do so on the basis of psychological opinions and theological beliefs. Goals rather than creeds should unify religionists. Since true religion is a matter of personal spiritual experience, it is inevitable that each individual religionist must have his own and personal interpretation of the realization of that spiritual experience. Let the term “faith” stand for the individual’s relation to God rather than for the creedal formulation of what some group of mortals have been able to agree upon as a common religious attitude. “Have you faith? Then have it to yourself."

Me here: It is enough for me Diego that you embrace faith and the eternal adventure. You do not need to agree with me or the UB to share the Pilgrim's Path to Paradise. Welcome and I am happy to share the trail with you. May your faith carry you through all confusions, doubts, disappointments, frustrations, failures, and the vicissitudes of living. Enjoy your trip home.

Best wishes,

Brad 8)


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