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Diego wrote:
nodAmanaV wrote:
Diego wrote:
Having come to this conclusion in my beliefs, and having determined that UB is entirely inaccurate when it teaches about the death of Jesus Christ, i am forced to terminate any further work with the text. To do otherwise would be to commit the grossest blasphemy on my part, and would endanger my very soul. I wish you all the best, and I ask you to pray for me, a sinner.

Farewell Diego. I will pray for you.


You are most kind. I shall continue to observe this thread for a few more days, just to see where it goes, since I did start it.

Oh you started it alright! See what you did!


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well in the UB God the Father and God the Son beget the Creator Sons (who are new creators not a creation) as opposed to the lutheran creed where god is created in the image of Man and faith is belief in the creed lol g'luck diego and thankya for reminding me just how dead the church can be


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Jim George wrote:
What is the significant meaning of the death of Jesus?

That everything of real significance in human experience is spiritually true inversely to what's apparently factual materially or physically.




Jim George wrote:
What is the significant value of the death of Jesus?

It maximizes the significance of time so that the experience of growing up spiritually can occur quickly.


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Makalu wrote:
well in the UB God the Father and God the Son beget the Creator Sons (who are new creators not a creation) as opposed to the lutheran creed where god is created in the image of Man and faith is belief in the creed lol g'luck diego and thankya for reminding me just how dead the church can be


First, I would encourage you to consider the illogic of your statement. The Creed is not creating God in the image of Man. It is understanding God in the light of the Scriptures. And jumping from that to calling the Church "dead" is just silly, would you not agree?


Last edited by Diego on Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:32 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Diego wrote:
Makalu wrote:
well in the UB God the Father and God the Son beget the Creator Sons (who are new creators not a creation) as opposed to the lutheran creed where god is created in the image of Man and faith is belief in the creed lol g'luck diego and thankya for reminding me just how dead the church can be


First, I would encourage you to consider the illogic of your statement. The Creed is not creating God in the image of Man. It is understanding God in the light of the Scriptures. And jumping from that to calling the Church "dead" is jus silly, would you not agree?

Diego, according to Christian creed, man believes that God is like man (made in man's image) vengeful and angry, the opposite of loving and merciful.

The Urantia Book supports this as being illogical but lovingly explains why it occurred.


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Here's something else Diego.

Sometimes parents, while experiencing great stress and anxiety, make what I'm sure you will agree is a catastrophic mistake, and kill their children as a part of some horrible overreaction. Some who have done this and survived to tell the reason for doing this have said it was done for love and mercy.


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Diego,

In the book of John chapter 5, we read the following words of Jesus.
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24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life. 25 “And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. 26 The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. 27 And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.[d] 28 Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. 30 I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

31 “If I were to testify on my own behalf, my testimony would not be valid. 32 But someone else is also testifying about me, and I assure you that everything he says about me is true. 33 In fact, you sent investigators to listen to John the Baptist, and his testimony about me was true. 34 Of course, I have no need of human witnesses, but I say these things so you might be saved. 35 John was like a burning and shining lamp, and you were excited for a while about his message. 36 But I have a greater witness than John—my teachings and my miracles. The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face, 38 and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you.

39 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.

41 “Your approval means nothing to me, 42 because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. 43 For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 44 No wonder you can’t believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don’t care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God.

45 “Yet it isn’t I who will accuse you before the Father. Moses will accuse you! Yes, Moses, in whom you put your hopes. 46 If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me. 47 But since you don’t believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”


If your issue is the truth and you are truly in fear of being mislead into blasphemy why do you not seek the source of truth instead of the written scriptures? Jesus, as recorded in the scriptures makes this same case to the Hebrew leaders when he says in verse 39
Quote:
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life."


Diego the reality of God is the same here as in heaven. The responsibility of each of us to commit our lives to seeking the reality of spirit is the same, whether here or there. The Great White Throne Judgement can happen right now if you will allow your fear to be turned into faith and embrace the living spirit within your being. When we do that we pass from death to life. This event is real, it is not merely a theory upon which we can establish hope. Faith in the reality of God enables each of us to transfer our trust from scriptures and doctrines to the living spirit within. That you still are feeling the need to trust an external source for your confidence in salvation reveals your own disbelief that you are individually capable of knowing God personally. Nothing could be further from the truth. Personally is, now and forever, the only way you or me or any of God's sentient creation can know him.

Reread the words of Jesus again and search your own heart to see if they are not the same as I am saying. God has given each of us all the tools necessary to achieve spiritual awakening and reality recognition. We don't need scriptures or Urantia Books. We need God. There is no other way. Jesus made the only path there is and following him means what He says it means.

Trust him and him alone.

I am praying for you,

Jim


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Diego wrote:
First, I would encourage you to consider the illogic of your statement. The Creed is not creating God in the image of Man. It is understanding God in the light of the Scriptures. And jumping from that to calling the Church "dead" is jus silly, would you not agree?


well i know better than to pound my head against the so-called Authority of the Scriptures with their debatable interpretations and questionable origins. Yes there is an illogical jump but i mostly just wanted to point out the flaw in the crux of your argument regarding the origin of the Creator Sons and had no interest in picking apart the rest of your post...just know that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny by even scriptural standards. if the attempt to understand God satisfies your questions then that's where you're at and i've no interest in striving with a complacent mind. but it's kinda silly to say that i said the Church is dead when i said it reminded me how dead the church can be, don't you agree? :shock:


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Here's something else Diego.

Sometimes parents, while experiencing great stress and anxiety, make what I'm sure you will agree is a catastrophic mistake, and kill their children as a part of some horrible overreaction. Some who have done this and survived to tell the reason for doing this have said it was done for love and mercy.


And yet I would submit to you that this is not not a logical response since you are failing to include the element that Jesus is CONSUBSTANTIAL with the Father. In other words, God is giving of himself by himself. Yes, he does it in the role of Son, but sine the Trinity is indivisible, he is not separate from it.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Diego wrote:
Makalu wrote:
well in the UB God the Father and God the Son beget the Creator Sons (who are new creators not a creation) as opposed to the lutheran creed where god is created in the image of Man and faith is belief in the creed lol g'luck diego and thankya for reminding me just how dead the church can be


First, I would encourage you to consider the illogic of your statement. The Creed is not creating God in the image of Man. It is understanding God in the light of the Scriptures. And jumping from that to calling the Church "dead" is jus silly, would you not agree?

Diego, according to Christian creed, man believes that God is like man (made in man's image) vengeful and angry, the opposite of loving and merciful.

The Urantia Book supports this as being illogical but lovingly explains why it occurred.


Actually, no. Man is in the image of God (Gen. ch. 2). Now, God BECAME man in order to be that perfect Second Adam to redeem us from our sins. But he is not in our image, since he is a being born with no sin on his soul and never committed one.That is a being the like of which we could only dream of.


Last edited by Diego on Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:14 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Makalu wrote:
Diego wrote:
First, I would encourage you to consider the illogic of your statement. The Creed is not creating God in the image of Man. It is understanding God in the light of the Scriptures. And jumping from that to calling the Church "dead" is jus silly, would you not agree?


well i know better than to pound my head against the so-called Authority of the Scriptures with their debatable interpretations and questionable origins. Yes there is an illogical jump but i mostly just wanted to point out the flaw in the crux of your argument regarding the origin of the Creator Sons and had no interest in picking apart the rest of your post...just know that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny by even scriptural standards.


Making an argument like that, and not bothering to defend it, is a sign of just how pompous you really are.

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if the attempt to understand God satisfies your questions then that's where you're at and i've no interest in striving with a complacent mind. but it's kinda silly to say that i said the Church is dead when i said it reminded me how dead the church can be, don't you agree? :shock:


Its not silly at all. Its showing you exactly what you don't know about an institution that is over 2 millennia in age, and will be here like a rock long after you and I are both dogmeat.


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Jim George wrote:
Diego,

In the book of John chapter 5, we read the following words of Jesus.
Quote:
24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life. 25 “And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. 26 The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. 27 And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.[d] 28 Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. 30 I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

31 “If I were to testify on my own behalf, my testimony would not be valid. 32 But someone else is also testifying about me, and I assure you that everything he says about me is true. 33 In fact, you sent investigators to listen to John the Baptist, and his testimony about me was true. 34 Of course, I have no need of human witnesses, but I say these things so you might be saved. 35 John was like a burning and shining lamp, and you were excited for a while about his message. 36 But I have a greater witness than John—my teachings and my miracles. The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face, 38 and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you.

39 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.

41 “Your approval means nothing to me, 42 because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. 43 For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 44 No wonder you can’t believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don’t care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God.

45 “Yet it isn’t I who will accuse you before the Father. Moses will accuse you! Yes, Moses, in whom you put your hopes. 46 If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me. 47 But since you don’t believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”


If your issue is the truth and you are truly in fear of being mislead into blasphemy why do you not seek the source of truth instead of the written scriptures? Jesus, as recorded in the scriptures makes this same case to the Hebrew leaders when he says in verse 39
Quote:
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life."


Diego the reality of God is the same here as in heaven. The responsibility of each of us to commit our lives to seeking the reality of spirit is the same, whether here or there. The Great White Throne Judgement can happen right now if you will allow your fear to be turned into faith and embrace the living spirit within your being. When we do that we pass from death to life. This event is real, it is not merely a theory upon which we can establish hope. Faith in the reality of God enables each of us to transfer our trust from scriptures and doctrines to the living spirit within. That you still are feeling the need to trust an external source for your confidence in salvation reveals your own disbelief that you are individually capable of knowing God personally. Nothing could be further from the truth. Personally is, now and forever, the only way you or me or any of God's sentient creation can know him.


This is an illogical statement in the extreme. Without the Church, we have no access to valid Sacraments being proclaimed for our use. I am no Romanist, but even an Evangelical Lutheran knows that the Holy Sacrament of the Altar can only be celebrated by a person upheld in the good order of the Church. Baptism likewise can only be administered accordingly, and the forgiveness of sins can only be proclaimed in good order from someone authorised to do so. The alternative is chaos. Reading Paul should clue you in to that.

Quote:
Reread the words of Jesus again and search your own heart to see if they are not the same as I am saying. God has given each of us all the tools necessary to achieve spiritual awakening and reality recognition. We don't need scriptures or Urantia Books. We need God. There is no other way. Jesus made the only path there is and following him means what He says it means.

Trust him and him alone.

I am praying for you,

Jim


Please note that I appreciate your prayers. If this message comes across as harsh, I apologise in advance.


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This is an illogical statement in the extreme. Without the Church, we have no access to valid Sacraments being proclaimed for our use. I am no Romanist, but even an Evangelical Lutheran knows that the Holy Sacrament of the Altar can only be celebrated by a person upheld in the good order of the Church. Baptism likewise can only be administered accordingly, and the forgiveness of sins can only be proclaimed in good order from someone authorised to do so. The alternative is chaos. Reading Paul should clue you in to that.


Quote:
The alternative is chaos.


Only to the church, the alternative to the individual is freedom to explore the reality of God's creation without having to adhere to mankind's traditions. Our Heavenly Father does not hold the traditions of men in the same regard as you apparently do. Neither do I.

But I shall continue to pray for you and when we meet on the shores of Mansonia we will have a good laugh at the whole thing.

Jim


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Jim George wrote:
Quote:
This is an illogical statement in the extreme. Without the Church, we have no access to valid Sacraments being proclaimed for our use. I am no Romanist, but even an Evangelical Lutheran knows that the Holy Sacrament of the Altar can only be celebrated by a person upheld in the good order of the Church. Baptism likewise can only be administered accordingly, and the forgiveness of sins can only be proclaimed in good order from someone authorised to do so. The alternative is chaos. Reading Paul should clue you in to that.


Quote:
The alternative is chaos.


Only to the church, the alternative to the individual is freedom to explore the reality of God's creation without having to adhere to mankind's traditions. Our Heavenly Father does not hold the traditions of men in the same regard as you apparently do. Neither do I.


And yet, does not the UB itself function as Scripture, more or less, for you? You have just substituted one Book for another.

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But I shall continue to pray for you and when we meet on the shores of Mansonia we will have a good laugh at the whole thing.


At least your sense of humour is intact! I'll grant you that much. Wherever we end up, we can have a laugh about it. And if you pass through Iowa, let me know. We can chat and have a chuckle about it then, too!

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Jim


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Diego wrote:
Making an argument like that, and not bothering to defend it, is a sign of just how pompous you really are.


no, it's a "sign" that i've no interest in debating this theology with you...just as i said

Diego wrote:
Its not silly at all. Its showing you exactly what you don't know about an institution that is over 2 millennia in age, and will be here like a rock long after you and I are both dogmeat.


erm no again, your inability to distinguish between the meaning of "can be" and "is", between potential and actual, doesn't really say anything at all about what i do or don't know about the institution. But you manage to make your point despite the lack of logic. g'luck


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