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It is most unfortunate that you think conversation/discussion is asking questions which are then answered but not answering any question asked of you. What is the meaning of death....mine, yours, Jesus', or anyone's? What then becomes the "significance of the death of Jesus Christ" according to the UB or your own belief system? How is it that who killed Jesus or how Jesus died has importance - or meaning and value? You agree he was not "sacrificed" on the altar of god-appeasement. Do you think Jesus may have chosen or allowed the form of his death? Was Jesus helpless to avoid or prevent his "manner" of death? How does the "manner" of his death relate to its "significance" or example or lesson to his apostles, disciples, believers....then and since then?

nodAmanaV wrote:
Don't worry, be happy.

(188:4.9) All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one's fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer's chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one's fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

That's what living means.


If you are a believer....then yes, "Don't worry, be happy!".....and then....get busy!!

Otherwise....seek the source of "happiness"! Those who do not believe and do not express their belief in God and God's love, by faith and love are not happy people. Oh, they may sometimes look happy by their indulgences in material wealth, pleasures, distractions, escapes, power over others, accomplishments, etc. But, as we know, these do not bring true happiness, contentment, joy, confidence, insight, truth, beauty, goodness.....or love. Pleasure does not equal happiness but happiness does bring pleasure along for the ride of faith and love.

For some, this mortal life delivers the spirit illuminated and motivated transfer of personal identity from material being to spiritual being and much is accomplished in circle progress by living the life of a believer and faith child. For others, this incubator of our infancy is a time of confusion, fear, materialism, and little spirit progress may be accomplished by our choices. For others, their path lies between, where belief and faith may fail to change us or find expression, but there does develop a love-response where we learn to love and serve others because of the power of love itself. It is not an intellectual embrace or a faith embrace of truth but there is, nonetheless, a response to truth, beauty, and goodness.

Very few, but some I am sure, manage to truly know the truth and reject the truth by an insane embrace of sin and iniquity and a loss of the very ability to respond to love or truth or beauty or goodness. My opinion is this is indeed a very small group and cannot be defined by simple self importance or self indulgence or confusion or ignorance or immature choices...the natural state of our birth on a material world. Just because some do not "transfer the seat of identity" does not condemn them to oblivion.

The "narrow" way is the way of transformation, transcendence, ascendance, and transferring our very identity....the goal of fusion requires this narrow way. The survival of material or mortal death is NOT this narrow way IMO. In those sections of the UB where Jesus is instructing apostles and disciples or is rebuking the priests, it is important to note the audience in relation to the teaching. Jesus is instructing the apostles on transferring the very seat of their personal identity OR the path to perfecting and fusion. Fusion does indeed have rigorous requirements and very specific achievements and acquirements prior to such a state of new-being.

Survival simple means beginning where one left off of the world of birth. For some, that's a long road. For some, it is a shorter challenge. But all of us from our place and time certainly require a little detaining and training prior to fusion. The Mansion Worlds are for that educational and transformative process when our material life ends in mortal death rather than by fusion and translation. We are detained only so long as it takes us to fuse with the God Fragment within.

The UB teaches the reality that life is not considered even begun prior to fusion, it is potential only until then. We are given name and number only then. This then is the narrow way and opening to eternity. The lessons of Jesus are about this process of self identification and spiritization with conviction and purpose with a factual understanding of universe reality - the paternity of our creators, the endless love of all creation, and the resulting family of all creation in which we are to love and serve one another.

Jesus taught that believers should not worry.....about anything....anything at all. Not food or rain or salvation or the safety and care of others or our world or our future or our possessions or our health or our death. Note the lilies and the sparrows. Not even if all earthly things should crash about us....don't worry. And if one knows God and his love and is engaged in the circuits of love and spirit, then happiness springs forth of its own accord. Happiness is one of the fruits of the spirit. So called believers who are not happy.....are not truly believers at all!! Those who live with anxiety and fear have no faith or insufficient faith to bring forth the fruits of the spirit. It is only the fruits of the spirit whereby any may know or measure their own faith or that of another. Fruit always comes from faith...the true and faithful vine never fails to produce its divine fruit. Can't hide or fake this one!!

8)

112:5.8 (1233.4) The governments of Orvonton and Nebadon do not claim absolute perfection for the detail working of the universal plan of mortal repersonalization, but they do claim to, and actually do, manifest patience, tolerance, understanding, and merciful sympathy. We had rather assume the risk of a system rebellion than to court the hazard of depriving one struggling mortal from any evolutionary world of the eternal joy of pursuing the ascending career.

112:5.9 (1233.5) This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all. But it does signify that all will creatures are to experience one true opportunity to make one undoubted, self-conscious, and final choice. The sovereign Judges of the universes will not deprive any being of personality status who has not finally and fully made the eternal choice; the soul of man must and will be given full and ample opportunity to reveal its true intent and real purpose.


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fanofVan wrote:
What is the meaning of death....mine, yours, Jesus', or anyone's? What then becomes the "significance of the death of Jesus Christ" according to the UB or your own belief system? How is it that who killed Jesus or how Jesus died has importance - or meaning and value? You agree he was not "sacrificed" on the altar of god-appeasement. Do you think Jesus may have chosen or allowed the form of his death? Was Jesus helpless to avoid or prevent his "manner" of death? How does the "manner" of his death relate to its "significance" or example or lesson to his apostles, disciples, believers....then and since then?

According to the UB, here are the answers:

(153:2.3) "The priests and teachers of that day sought to kill Jeremiah, but the judges would not consent, albeit, for his words of warning, they did let him down by cords in a filthy dungeon until he sank in mire up to his armpits. That is what this people did to the Prophet Jeremiah when he obeyed the Lord's command to warn his brethren of their impending political downfall. Today, I desire to ask you: What will the chief priests and religious leaders of this people do with the man who dares to warn them of the day of their spiritual doom? Will you also seek to put to death the teacher who dares to proclaim the word of the Lord, and who fears not to point out wherein you refuse to walk in the way of light which leads to the entrance to the kingdom of heaven?


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What the above selected quote from the Urantia Book says, regarding the significance of the death of Jesus, is when you do what the Lord commands, fear will disappear. Death will turn into life. An extra ordinary life NOW.

Later, it will be too late.


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When is later too late? Too late for what? When we make our first moral choice as mortal child, soul is born. When we consciously dedicate our will to Father's will, we are born of the Spirit (reborn or born again). Is it too late for those who have soul and the flicker but have not yet dedicated their will upon their mortal death here? Not on the world of origin it is not, no. The standards for survival, circle progress, and fusion are each different from the others. What is not accomplished on the world of birth is the very purpose of the Mansion Worlds.

Jesus accomplished all three in twenty some years, an example for a universe. His life was a masterpiece of faith and will as was his death which, naturally, led to his resurrection - a complete example of faith, loyalty, confidence, truth, and love for all time and all people. Death is but a door Jesus willingly walked through knowing what was on the other side - the heavenly abode. It would be helpful to distinguish between survival, circle progress, and fusion in considering our potential and the realization of potential and the ultimate failure to reach our potential. Thus, we are given time, mercy credits, and the Mansion Worlds for our rehabilitation and/or our further education to provide for the progress required for fusion. We can only fail to reach our potential by a clear, conscious, knowing, and intentional denial and refusal of this opportunity. Can that be done here on Urantia? Possibly but unlikely....who has such knowledge to reject here among us? Who here rejects what is known by us? Ignorance, confusion, doubt, fear, and self love are not sufficient for our self chosen doom IMO.

Please tell us when it is too late for whom....and why.

There are many reasons to embrace the Spirit sooner rather than later, now is the best time to be born again! The blessings are far too wonderful to delay!

155:6.17 (1733.5) Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith. He takes note of the physical and superstitious emotions of the primitive man. And with those honest but fearful souls whose faith is so weak that it amounts to little more than an intellectual conformity to a passive attitude of assent to religions of authority, the Father is ever alert to honor and foster even all such feeble attempts to reach out for him. But you who have been called out of darkness into the light are expected to believe with a whole heart; your faith shall dominate the combined attitudes of body, mind, and spirit.

155:6.18 (1733.6) You are my apostles, and to you religion shall not become a theologic shelter to which you may flee in fear of facing the rugged realities of spiritual progress and idealistic adventure; but rather shall your religion become the fact of real experience which testifies that God has found you, idealized, ennobled, and spiritualized you, and that you have enlisted in the eternal adventure of finding the God who has thus found and sonshipped you.


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fanofVan wrote:
When is later too late? Too late for what?

Too late for what the Lord commands to do now.

Would it not have been too late for Jesus if he put off doing what the Lord commands, until the next life? If he did that, would he have inherited a universe?

You don't think it's different for all of us do you?

Waiting to do latter in the next life what should've been done now is significant for us like it was for Jesus.


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What was the significance of the death of Jesus Christ?


My first questions are relative to the word "significance". I see two questions in this.

1. What is the significant meaning of the death of Jesus?
2. What is the significant value of the death of Jesus?

Failure to answer these, to specify our goal, has the tendency to create confusion.

Let us ponder those two while we seek guidance from the revelation. Paper 100 gives us great guidance in deciphering meaning and value. In this paper we are taught that our appreciation of the divine value of an experience is explained as our relative understanding of that value, expressed as meaning. Therefore we each can come away with a meaning which for our appreciation of value is correct, but may well be different than another person's understanding. Wow does this mean we are wrong? Does this mean that I am incorrect if your statement is different than mine? The explanation of growth in this paper is remarkable and rewarding. We grow in our appreciation of value as we overcome our own and personal inconsistencies and learn to deal with our shortcomings. "Don't bother me I am playing with my mental blocks," I used to say half jokingly. Well arguing over meanings may well indicate the same. Especially if our intention is to learn to grow in our appreciation of divine value. Values are not manufactured by us they are realized as we step out in faith to grasp a hold on the unknown. Learning to grow in our ability to value reality is the same as turning our stumbling blocks into stepping stones. Appreciation of value is personal, individual and is not quantifiable. All we will ever be able to do with value is experience it. From each increase in our ability to perceive value we will learn to re-examine and re-explain our meanings to ourselves and each other.

This is the missing element in Churchianity and other "Religions" that seek to quantify God. This is the missing element in this discussion.

My personal experience in this issue tells me that the greatest value I can attempt to regard and and seek to understand is that of Jesus' absolute focus on doing the will of his father. He had to deliberately choose to not place his human reticence to allowing the events of crucifixion interfere with his single purpose of revealing his father's will. I can use that amazing act of will as an inspiration and set that as a goal. I am uninterested in much of the rest of human reasons why it was or how it was significant.

Larry posted a reference to a girl's blog who happens to be in India that is very relevant. She said, in effect, Jesus didn't die for my sins, but he did die in the way he did because of them. I share her view. When I met Jesus I understood that I was the one yelling "Crucify him!" I did that. So did all of us. Actually, so did each of us. We cannot move to a higher appreciation of value in our personal approach to reality until we learn to appreciate just how much like those people who actually did the yelling we really are. Start at the beginning, so to speak. Appreciation of true value cannot have blocks of awareness potential we have chosen to avoid. We have to face our selves honestly and allow God to reveal his value, his spiritual value to us in relation to what we actually are. The contrast is humbling. The revelation is inspiring.

Let's resolve to show our little planet the love of God in our living, not merely in our thinking. Paper 100 says that love is not an action of our will but an expression of our whole being. It means that we live our values as we value others lives.

Jim


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nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
When is later too late? Too late for what?

Too late for what the Lord commands to do now.

Would it not have been too late for Jesus if he put off doing what the Lord commands, until the next life? If he did that, would he have inherited a universe?


Jesus is a Creator Son and, as such, he is the local universe personification of the Universal Father. So, no, he does not give 'commands' to himself. He is inherently aware of his divine bestowal mission and is totally in control of his capacities to complete this, the seventh of his bestowals in Nebadon.

5:3.6 (66.2) The Creator or Sovereign Sons who preside over the destinies of the local universes stand in the place of both the Universal Father and the Eternal Son of Paradise. These Universe Sons receive, in the name of the Father, the adoration of worship and give ear to the pleas of their petitioning subjects throughout their respective creations. To the children of a local universe a Michael Son is, to all practical intents and purposes, God. He is the local universe personification of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son. The Infinite Spirit maintains personal contact with the children of these realms through the Universe Spirits, the administrative and creative associates of the Paradise Creator Sons.

nodAmanaV wrote:
You don't think it's different for all of us do you?


Um, yes. Yes it is. We are mortal beings. Jesus is a Creator Son. A Creator Son is the most powerful, versatile, and influential of all divine beings who administer materials worlds. With great power comes great responsibility. The expectations of Jesus were much higher than they are for Urantia mortals in terms of spiritual progress and wisdom achievement.

33:1.2 (366.3) Our Creator Son is not the Eternal Son, the existential Paradise associate of the Universal Father and the Infinite Spirit. Michael of Nebadon is not a member of the Paradise Trinity. Nevertheless our Master Son possesses in his realm all of the divine attributes and powers that the Eternal Son himself would manifest were he actually to be present on Salvington and functioning in Nebadon. Michael possesses even additional power and authority, for he not only personifies the Eternal Son but also fully represents and actually embodies the personality presence of the Universal Father to and in this local universe. He even represents the Father-Son. These relationships constitute a Creator Son the most powerful, versatile, and influential of all divine beings who are capable of direct administration of evolutionary universes and of personality contact with immature creature beings.


Last edited by Agon D. Onter on Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:35 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
When is later too late? Too late for what?

Too late for what the Lord commands to do now.

Would it not have been too late for Jesus if he put off doing what the Lord commands, until the next life? If he did that, would he have inherited a universe?

You don't think it's different for all of us do you?

Waiting to do latter in the next life what should've been done now is significant for us like it was for Jesus.




The origin of Michael and the reason for his ministry on Urantia as his 7th and final bestowal mission are certainly not the same as those who originate in the universes by mortal birth. Jesus was "born again" in the spirit at a tender age and he grew and transformed through the 7 Circles same as you and me (only much faster). But his public ministry had a much older, deeper, wiser, more experienced (by a few billion years), and personal source of knowledge in his prior (and now current) experience as Michael.

No one has suggested that "waiting" is okay. No one has said that having a soul or even being born again is sufficient. To be illuminated by the Spirit and to dedicate one's will to God's will certainly brings transformation that should inspire the believer to profoundly change/transform motive, intent, priority, choice, and act - or else one is NOT born again - yet. Who has said otherwise?

You still do not recognize (or acknowledge) that there are different elements/requirements to survive, to make circle progress, and to fuse.

It is never to late to come to the Lord and become born of the Spirit and to make circle progress.....the very purpose and point of the Mansion Worlds. When do you say "it is too late"??!! When does God stop the clock of time for someone? How is that done?

Still you worry about what others do and do not do or should do and should not do. And presume to know what others should do and whether they will or will not survive. To reach our potential (fusion) much is required. To survive our ignorance, doubts, confusions, and immaturities....much less is required. Jesus inherited a universe the day of his baptism. Jesus became Michael (again, only different by his human experience) the day of his baptism. Michael regained control of his universe in the Perean Hills right after his baptism. (I should note that according to the UB, the act of baptism had nothing to do with anything related to his completion of the Circles except symbolically.)

What should others be doing? Are your concerns and warnings for what others are or are not doing what YOU should be doing? Says who?

:roll:

Now once we are born again, we are told that every decision moves us forward into Spirit or backward away from Spirit. Is indolence and immaturity a sin? Or an error? Will such "backsliding" (a term from the church of my youth) condemn a soul to oblivion? Not in my opinion based on my understanding of the mercy credits and patience over time, no. But it is foolhardy and dangerous and self destructive to ignore the truth we know and to abandon love of others for love of self - but this does require the knowledge of the better way which is then rejected. Do you know of someone this applies to?

Your inference remains the same: the UB is dangerous, life is dangerous, God's love, mercy, patience, and generosity are not dependable - someone ELSE must DO something NOW or be damned! Your fear and anxieties over others is misplace and counterproductive to your own circle progress. God is love. Fear not. See to your own shortcomings first. And then, Fear Not some more!


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fanofVan wrote:
nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
When is later too late? Too late for what?

Too late for what the Lord commands to do now.

Would it not have been too late for Jesus if he put off doing what the Lord commands, until the next life? If he did that, would he have inherited a universe?

You don't think it's different for all of us do you?

Waiting to do latter in the next life what should've been done now is significant for us like it was for Jesus.

The origin of Michael and the reason for his ministry on Urantia as his 7th and final bestowal mission are certainly not the same as those who originate in the universes by mortal birth. Jesus was "born again" in the spirit at a tender age and he grew and transformed through the 7 Circles same as you and me (only much faster). But his public ministry had a much older, deeper, wiser, more experienced (by a few billion years), and personal source of knowledge in his prior (and now current) experience as Michael.

No one has suggested that "waiting" is okay. No one has said that having a soul or even being born again is sufficient. To be illuminated by the Spirit and to dedicate one's will to God's will certainly brings transformation that should inspire the believer to profoundly change/transform motive, intent, priority, choice, and act - or else one is NOT born again - yet. Who has said otherwise?

You still do not recognize (or acknowledge) that there are different elements/requirements to survive, to make circle progress, and to fuse.

It is never to late to come to the Lord and become born of the Spirit and to make circle progress.....the very purpose and point of the Mansion Worlds. When do you say "it is too late"??!! When does God stop the clock of time for someone? How is that done?

Still you worry about what others do and do not do or should do and should not do. And presume to know what others should do and whether they will or will not survive. To reach our potential (fusion) much is required. To survive our ignorance, doubts, confusions, and immaturities....much less is required. Jesus inherited a universe the day of his baptism. Jesus became Michael (again, only different by his human experience) the day of his baptism. Michael regained control of his universe in the Perean Hills right after his baptism. (I should note that according to the UB, the act of baptism had nothing to do with anything related to his completion of the Circles except symbolically.)

What should others be doing? Are your concerns and warnings for what others are or are not doing what YOU should be doing? Says who?
:roll:
Now once we are born again, we are told that every decision moves us forward into Spirit or backward away from Spirit. Is indolence and immaturity a sin? Or an error? Will such "backsliding" (a term from the church of my youth) condemn a soul to oblivion? Not in my opinion based on my understanding of the mercy credits and patience over time, no. But it is foolhardy and dangerous and self destructive to ignore the truth we know and to abandon love of others for love of self - but this does require the knowledge of the better way which is then rejected. Do you know of someone this applies to?

Your inference remains the same: the UB is dangerous, life is dangerous, God's love, mercy, patience, and generosity are not dependable - someone ELSE must DO something NOW or be damned! Your fear and anxieties over others is misplace and counterproductive to your own circle progress. God is love. Fear not. See to your own shortcomings first. And then, Fear Not some more!

"fanofVan", I'm curious as to all your questions which seem to be pointed at "nodAmanaV" as if you are attempting to do the same thing which you seem to be accusing him of doing; almost to the point of being on a pulpit, preaching to a sinner, where it might seem that you are judging those who do not see things your way?
It would seem that "nodAmanaV" has his opinion about what he considers to be truth, as he understands it from the UB, even if that opinion may be lead from other sources but, it appears that you are doing the same thing to the point of obsession, to save a sinner, as you may see it?
It would seem that you might be reluctant to actually see that which has been presented in the UB which might question that there was a significance to the death of Jesus, where this subject has been a cause of many atrocities and wars through history, where the progenitors of these actions as punishment for one group or another, who might have been responsible for Jesus' death.
There are those who say the fault is with with the Jews and others with the Roman's and even from the UB, Jesus' celestial enemies, but all in all Jesus put his fate in the hands of Our Father, so is there some significance in Jesus putting Himself in the Fathers hands, and could it be significant that all this was the Fathers Will, that Jesus should die in such a manor?
It would seem that the topic title is a valid question, but cannot be debated if all opinions are not allowed to be heard, regardless of whether their beliefs pass the oppositions mandates, to suppress open discussion?
Do you not answer your own questions as a directive to a specific person, or a mirror image of yourself??

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The Reality of knowing what Wisdom is, is in the Experiencing of the Philosophy of using Knowledge.


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Greetings Midi!!

My questions posted are in reply to nod's posts, seeking clarification and understanding of those posts which include questions themselves....some of which are answered directly and some of which generated additional questions. It is my hope to discuss and to explore the very interesting and important question which began this conversation as originated by Diego. Several have offered different opinions as to the "significance" of the death of Jesus Christ and I have also conjectured as to the significance of the "manner" of the death of Jesus in addition to the original question. It is also true that some questions I have posed might be construed as "rhetorical" in nature and are questions I also ask of myself...and of the UB for clarity. But all questions posed should be taken as an invitation for any and all others to offer opinions, quotes, experience, and speculations by whoever cares to join the conversation.

I don't think nod is a "sinner" nor do I have any obligation, desire, or ability to "save" him or anyone else and have no thought that nod needs saving from anything at all. I have no reluctance to consider the question which began the discussion or the additional questions which have and might yet flow from the original query and the subsequent discussion. I must be missing your point about being "reluctant". As I said early on in the conversation, it is my opinion that the UB does not specifically state why Jesus died and was murdered in the fashion in which it occurred. I offered some speculation of my own along with text throughout Part IV in support of my proposition/opinion. Such speculation should not be taken as definitive or declarative due to my own uncertainties regarding the matter....and should not be taken as preachy given my own obvious lack of certainty in the matter.

As you say, the will of God was of paramount importance in the life and the death of Jesus TO Jesus....his mission was to illustrate his confidence in Father's love and purpose and plan and power. Now, I would speculate that it was NOT God's will for Jesus to be tortured and brutally murdered, as such evil and sin cannot BE God's will ever (or so I understand the teachings), but Jesus did ACT according to his own best understanding of the will of God - which included what to do and when and what not to do and why. Personally, I have always found the topic confusing and of great interest. I am certain that Jesus could have prevented or avoided that final week and that Jesus/Michael had multiple options available for his ministry/bestowal once completed upon the day of his baptism.

I really appreciate Jim's post and the questions posed regarding meaning and value. I would offer that the value is, in one way, demonstrated by the cocoon of Christianity in which the Jesusonian Gospel remains nurtured and growing in its impact due to the Son's Spirit gifted to us afterward. Consider the potential wait for a Teacher Son for our world rather than receiving Michael's Spirit 2000 years ago. The value of Jesus' death must surely include this parting gift to our world. Remember that the Son's Spirit is bestowed one world at a time - it is not universal - and it is only upon this gift of great value that the Thought Adjusters are released to the planetary population upon each person's first moral decision. What a divine gift of reality and one of immense value to each of us and to our entire world - both!!

So consideration of the true value (or the benefits derived thereby) of Jesus' life and death must include: the termination of our Creator Son, now Master Son's final bestowal and achievement of his well deserved sovereignty; the Jesusonian Gospel of God's paternal nature and love and the resulting brother/sisterhood of all creation; the Apostles who carried forth in the name of Jesus and founded the greatest of evolutionary religions (which depended in large measure upon those many souls Jesus won for the Kingdom in his many travels throughout the region prior to his public ministry); the example of the temporal nature of mortality/death, and the reality of resurrection; the gift of the Spirit of Truth; and the flood of TA's ever since!!!

Lots of meaning and value to explore here together!!

8)

Midi...on an aside, I wonder if you intend to identify yourself for everyone related to your prior posting name here and even those before that last one? It would serve transparency and demonstrate sincerity to the readers/students here to be able to research your voice with all the names posted under , don't you think? It is very disjointed and confusing (if not deceitful) to keep changing one's posting name here; Louis has to be trailed under 4 or 5 different names already. Is this your third? or fourth? One cannot hide their voice by changing their name you know. Just sayin'....


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Names aren't important.

Because you're "disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits" 176:3.7


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Please note that the following that I am going to write contains my conclusion to what I have observed of my study of the Urantia Book since 2013. This includes classes in various places. These are my final thoughts on the matter, as I find myself unable to continue my studies in said book, due to my conflicts between my loyalty to Lutheran Christianity, which is my profession of Faith, and is a part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and the teachings of the Urantia Book.


After reading all of this for the last several days, and referring to the Confessions, I have determined the problem.The fundamental issue is that the UB does not teach the Godhood of Jesus Christ. Instead, it teaches only that Jesus Christ is a "Creator Son" of the Father. This a different order of being.

Historic Christianity, of which Lutheranism is a part, teaches that Jesus is God. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. They are all equally God. I refer you specifically to the Athanasian Creed on this point.

This is in contrapoint to the idea taught in the Urantia Book that there are many Creator Sons throughout the known Universe (used in the modern sense of all known space), of which Jesus is one. The basic idea that every given region of space has a Creator Son, somebody LIKE Jesus, comparable to Him, simply flies in the face of the Christian verity.

And what is this Christian verity? The Christian verity is that Jesus IS God. This is unlike the Urantia Book, which appears to teach Arianism, the idea that Jesus was created at a point in time, as an incarnation of Michael the Archangel, and cannot stand. The Urantia Book is not unusual in teaching this. The Jehovah's Witnesses also teach that Jesus and Michael are the same individual.

The fact is, Michael is an Angel, created by God. Jesus was begotten, not created.

"The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

The word "catholic" of course means "universal" and is NOT a reference to the Roman Church in particular, as Lutherans, among several others, belong to the Universal Church.

But reviewing this ancient Creed, we see several things. One, Jesus create ALL things in the Universe (that word being used in the modern sense, for all things that exist throughout the known cosmos), in his position as the Word of God, rather than just things in a local region of space. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

We read that he was of the same substance as the Father. Another way of putting it wold be to say that he was Consubstantial with the father.

Moving on, we wish to look at the Athanasian Creed, which was written against the Arians.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

I cannot even comment on that, it is so well written that it needs no added response from me.

Let us dig into that most vexatious of subjects at long last, the Atonement. What does it mean? IS it in fact a barbaric belief, or, to the contrary, is it one that can bring tender mercy to all of mankind from an ever-loving, and ever-giving God?

Here is what it all comes down to: WHO, or perhaps WHAT (in terms of identity), is being sacrificed, in the case of the Atonement? The question is important for the following reason: If God is sacrificing a creation of his, then that is an incredibly vicious, brutal thing to do. For God to sacrifice a creation of his is an horrific idea, and if that were to be the case, one would have to seriously ask if he would be a God worthy of our devotion and/or love.

HOWEVER, and this is key, that is NOT what he is doing at all! Instead, he is sacrificing HIMSELF! Remember, the Word of God was Begotten of His Father from before all Worlds, by whom all things were made. At a point in time, God CHOSE to become Man. St. Anselm, Archbishop of Canterbury (reigned 1093-1109) wrote a book called "Cur Deus Homo", "Why God Became Man".

After an admittedly rather abstruse Scholastic argument that many people have a hard time following today (simply because American public education is so poor), Anselm concludes, correctly in my view, that God became Man because he had to. The argument, much simplified here, goes something like this:

(A). God had created Adam, a perfect Man endowed with Free Will and placed him in Eden to live forever in God's personal company and be his intimate friend.

(B). Man abused his Free Will and sinned through disobedience, and was punished by removal from Eden and God's personal comany, losing his intimate friendship. Furthermore, he could not live forever.

(C). Man was eternally lost through these actions.

(D). The only way for man to regain perfection was for ANOTHER perfect Man to be sent to die for Adam's sin.

(E). Man born to this Earth was inherently imperfect.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ergo, God sent himself as a Man, the only possibly perfect being that could exist to give himself for us.

It worked. Although man is still inherently sinful and unclean, we can, by the Grace of Jesus Christ our Lord and God, come and lean on him and because infused by Grace Alone, and then follow Christ through Faith Alone, in obedience to Scripture Alone.

Having come to this conclusion in my beliefs, and having determined that UB is entirely inaccurate when it teaches about the death of Jesus Christ, i am forced to terminate any further work with the text. To do otherwise would be to commit the grossest blasphemy on my part, and would endanger my very soul. I wish you all the best, and I ask you to pray for me, a sinner.

"Do you intend to live according to the Word of God, and in faith, word, and deed to remain true to God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, even unto death?

I do, by the grace of God.


Do you intend to continue steadfast in this confession and Church and to suffer all, even death, rather than fall away from it?

I do, by the grace of God."

From the Confirmation Service of 21 August 2016, where I was received into the Faith.


Last edited by Diego on Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:08 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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nodAmanaV wrote:
Names aren't important.

Because you're "disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits".



Names may not be important....but I wonder about the frequent changing of one's name....especially due to being "uninvited" to post here by the admins?

Why does someone post at the same site under 2,3,4 or more different names? What's the motive and the intent of such tactic?

It is confusing, disjointed, disingenuous, and intended to deceive....or it would not occur. Just sayin'......

:roll:


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Diego wrote:
Having come to this conclusion in my beliefs, and having determined that UB is entirely inaccurate when it teaches about the death of Jesus Christ, i am forced to terminate any further work with the text. To do otherwise would be to commit the grossest blasphemy on my part, and would endanger my very soul. I wish you all the best, and I ask you to pray for me, a sinner.

Farewell Diego. I will pray for you.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Diego wrote:
Having come to this conclusion in my beliefs, and having determined that UB is entirely inaccurate when it teaches about the death of Jesus Christ, i am forced to terminate any further work with the text. To do otherwise would be to commit the grossest blasphemy on my part, and would endanger my very soul. I wish you all the best, and I ask you to pray for me, a sinner.

Farewell Diego. I will pray for you.


You are most kind. I shall continue to observe this thread for a few more days, just to see where it goes, since I did start it.


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