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So, question:

I am a strong believer in the Atonement. I believe that Jesus died for our sins on the Cross. Now the question is, if the the UB is to be believed, the Atonement is not an acceptable concept. Now I am not here to get into a theological battle on the subject. But, what WAS the purpose of Jesus's death, if NOT to save man from his sin?

The Bible is pretty clear in its view on the subject. Martin Luther's Small Catechism is equally clear, as are the other Lutheran Confessions. So, what IS the purpose of his death, if these documents are "missing the mark", if you will?


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Hello Diego,

Many religionists place the atonement as the pinnacle of our relationship with Jesus and most religions emphasize its importance. But if you pause for a moment and contemplate Jesus' life and teachings you may begin to view this in a different light.

Jesus drew large crowds wherever he spoke. What was he saying that was so captivating to the people? Was he saying that they were separate from the Father, that the Father could not love them because they were sinful and lived on a sinful world? Was he saying that he had come to live a perfect and sinless life among us so that he could be offered as an unblemished Jewish sacrifice? Was he saying that the Father required innocent blood so that sin could be washed away? Is this the compelling message that Jesus gave that stirred that world? I don't think so... I think those are primarily humanly devised concepts, not divine ones.

So what does the death on the cross mean? You may want to reread 188:4.0 and 188:5.0 for example to enhance your own understanding. For me the death on the cross has several meanings, none of which have to do with God's wrath or Jesus being a sacrifice.

Jesus chose this world because of its sinfulness and the sinfulness of its inhabitants, so yes, he came to lead us away from sin. He lived a sinless life devoted to the Father, his devotion expressed the love of the Father for us. He allowed himself to be killed because of his love for all humanity.

One of Jesus' messages was that this life is a bridge and he demonstrated that first by healing sick people who everyone assumed were dead and then by bringing several actually dead people back to life, showing that they continued to exist after the death of the flesh. I think that message of life being a bridge would have been compelling to those who heard him preach. His proof of this teaching was that he himself came back from death. By words and by example Jesus gave humanity the strength to overcome the universal fear of death and to recognize that this life matters and that it's a bridge to something bigger and better.

By his death Jesus also personalized the Father's love for all humanity, even those who were his enemies. His teachings weren't just good sounding words, they had demonstrable substance.

I'd like to suggest that you read a very compelling personal reflection on the meaning of Jesus' death as written by a Hindu girl on her blog. It's found at
http://www.angeljohn.org/2012/03/07/jesus-died-for-me/

Best wishes,
Larry


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The Bible certainly is clear, but if we are to believe in a world created in 6 days, and trust in everything that is written, then we are left with vagueries in terms of "why was man in fallen estate", "just what was Jesus atoning for"? Disobedience, perhaps. But Jesus was not gravely disappointed with the nature of man. Perhaps there is some version of atonement that you may work out, through the garnering and understanding of detail as it is presented by the Urantia Book. You may read in UB 119 that Jesus lived his life in order to settle the exigencies of the Lucifer rebellion. And that he ascended to paradise and liberated the Spirit of Truth for human beings, is this not a potent gift by which we may atone.

The doctrine of atonement must be revised because of the declaration that sin does not befall an entire people "no longer shall they say, 'the father has eaten sour grapes and the child's teeth are set on edge.'" You may see evidences from Jesus' own pronouncements that the notion of "Fallen Adam" was erroneous. Yet when we may sin, it is in the archetype of Joshua ben Joseph that we may atone ourselves.

You may defy the Urantia Book teachings, but remember that the authors of the Urantia Book were to present facts, mysteries, and phenomena, rather than doctrine. Doctrine itself may be vestige of evolutionary religion, and what truth you may salvage from it is your own. But the strict adherance to custom poses risk of ignorance that run contrary to the apt perception of revelation.

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Greetings again Diego!

You might wish to explore the question and topic in prior discussions here at TruthBook:

search.php?keywords=atonement&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

I would think the more important and initial question for research and discussion is WHY was Jesus here to better appreciate and understand the significance of his death. Papers 119 and 120 will provide much insight on that topic.

Even as a Christian youth with my red letter KJV, it was obvious to me that the message OF Jesus was one of the goodness and mercy and love of Father and the fact that mortal death and suffering have no grip on God's children and believers. His death was to demonstrate its temporal nature. The public nature of it, IMO, was to empower his Apostles and invigorate them against the physical torture and death they too would face....inspiration.

Actually, the UB does not specifically articulate the reasoning of Jesus regarding his cat and mouse guerrilla offensive against the priesthood and the ultimate outcome and the timing of that outcome. But I don't think a reasoning person should have much difficulty with discerning the why of his how and when myself given the context and details provided in the UB.

Of course it is not just the doctrine of atonement Christians must grapple with in our early studies of the Papers. The UB also contradicts original sin, the fall of man, the sins of the fathers visited upon the sons, the inherent sinful nature of mortals, and many other Judaic and Paulinian doctrines. It also describes how science and evolution are harmonized with creationism and religion which are to be unified by a philosophical recognition that there is only one reality, of which both science and religion pursue disparately, but only by ignorance and lack of experience. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive but are inherently joined....a study of the unified universe reality within which all live and all of which is by and of the will of God.

The significance of the death of Jesus, I think, was revelatory...it revealed a new level of reality unknown by those who witnessed his life and his resurrection and who formed a new testamentary religion of eternal life in grace by God's love and his children's faith.

Best wishes in your studies!



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If the UB is correct, the "significance" of the life of Jesus Christ was revelatory to an entire local universe as well as our world to demonstrate absolute faith in God. His physical death and suffering and his subsequent resurrection were also important elements to this demonstration of faith. I suggest a re-read of the final Paper in the UB for an awesome explanation of that faith and its demonstration or revelation. Here's a link to the Foundation search engine for atonement OR redemption:

http://www.urantia.org/search/book_sear ... redemption

And from Paper 196:

196:0.1 (2087.1) JESUS enjoyed a sublime and wholehearted faith in God. He experienced the ordinary ups and downs of mortal existence, but he never religiously doubted the certainty of God’s watchcare and guidance. His faith was the outgrowth of the insight born of the activity of the divine presence, his indwelling Adjuster. His faith was neither traditional nor merely intellectual; it was wholly personal and purely spiritual.

196:0.4 (2087.4) In the Master’s life on Urantia, this and all other worlds of the local creation discover a new and higher type of religion, religion based on personal spiritual relations with the Universal Father and wholly validated by the supreme authority of genuine personal experience. This living faith of Jesus was more than an intellectual reflection, and it was not a mystic meditation.

196:0.5 (2087.5) Theology may fix, formulate, define, and dogmatize faith, but in the human life of Jesus faith was personal, living, original, spontaneous, and purely spiritual. This faith was not reverence for tradition nor a mere intellectual belief which he held as a sacred creed, but rather a sublime experience and a profound conviction which securely held him. His faith was so real and all-encompassing that it absolutely swept away any spiritual doubts and effectively destroyed every conflicting desire. Nothing was able to tear him away from the spiritual anchorage of this fervent, sublime, and undaunted faith. Even in the face of apparent defeat or in the throes of disappointment and threatening despair, he calmly stood in the divine presence free from fear and fully conscious of spiritual invincibility. Jesus enjoyed the invigorating assurance of the possession of unflinching faith, and in each of life’s trying situations he unfailingly exhibited an unquestioning loyalty to the Father’s will. And this superb faith was undaunted even by the cruel and crushing threat of an ignominious death.

196:2.1 (2091.10) Some day a reformation in the Christian church may strike deep enough to get back to the unadulterated religious teachings of Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. You may preach a religion about Jesus, but, perforce, you must live the religion of Jesus. In the enthusiasm of Pentecost, Peter unintentionally inaugurated a new religion, the religion of the risen and glorified Christ. The Apostle Paul later on transformed this new gospel into Christianity, a religion embodying his own theologic views and portraying his own personal experience with the Jesus of the Damascus road. The gospel of the kingdom is founded on the personal religious experience of the Jesus of Galilee; Christianity is founded almost exclusively on the personal religious experience of the Apostle Paul. Almost the whole of the New Testament is devoted, not to the portrayal of the significant and inspiring religious life of Jesus, but to a discussion of Paul’s religious experience and to a portrayal of his personal religious convictions. The only notable exceptions to this statement, aside from certain parts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are the Book of Hebrews and the Epistle of James. Even Peter, in his writing, only once reverted to the personal religious life of his Master. The New Testament is a superb Christian document, but it is only meagerly Jesusonian.

8)


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Diego wrote:
So, question:

I am a strong believer in the Atonement. I believe that Jesus died for our sins on the Cross. Now the question is, if the the UB is to be believed, the Atonement is not an acceptable concept. Now I am not here to get into a theological battle on the subject. But, what WAS the purpose of Jesus's death, if NOT to save man from his sin?

The Bible is pretty clear in its view on the subject. Martin Luther's Small Catechism is equally clear, as are the other Lutheran Confessions. So, what IS the purpose of his death, if these documents are "missing the mark", if you will?

Hi Diego,

I fully understand where you're coming from theologically. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran myself -- both of my parents were Lutheran elementary school teachers, my grandfather was a pastor, an uncle was also a pastor before giving it up to enter medicine and become a physician, and all my schooling from kindergarten through high school was in private Lutheran schools. I was attending Lutheran Sunday School and memorizing Bible verses from the earliest days of my life as a wondering, thinking child.

Like you I'm not interested in theological back and forth argumentation on the topic. But since it seems unusual on such a low traffic message board that I'm here with a background that can both speak to where you're coming from and the UB, if you want me to, I'll share more fully the mental and spiritual steps that can lead a person like me to go from being culturally bred through and through to carry around a belief in the atonement from Lutheranism to where I'm at now where it's been let go. For me, it isn't just from the Urantia Book actually, it's remarkably clear to me from the Bible also.

The place in the Urantia Book itself where it addresses your question most directly and fully is probably paper 188 section 4 and 5:

"Meaning of the Death on the Cross"


https://bigbluebook.org/188/4/

tas


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188:4.9 All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one’s fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

Aloha...

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Hi Diego,

After decades of pondering the meaning of the death of the master according to the New Testament, I feel there is definitely a truth in its expression. To get to that truth though, that is to be understood more from "God's perspective" than man's, may require a little study.

We might consider carefully word choices:

"Jesus died for our sins on the Cross"
"Jesus died on account of our sins on the Cross"
"Jesus died as a consequence of our sins on the Cross"
"Jesus died to show us the nature of our sins on the Cross"
"Jesus died to show us the nature of our forefather's sins on the Cross"
"Jesus died to show us the nature of our forefather's non-heavenly inclinations on the Cross"

and especially

"Jesus died to substitute his divine and perfect deeds and inclinations for those of our rebellious forefathers on the Cross"

Given that the impromptu writers of the New Testament text did not generally express themselves with extreme eloquence and detail, all of the above may reflect the actual meaning of the events that were experienced in those distant times. Is that not so?

In demonstrating the nature or condition of our ancestors, or at least the ancestors of the people of Israel in those times, the master simultaneously demonstrated his nature as well as the perfect doing of the will of the heavenly father. The master's attonement was the jettisoning of all of the imperfect, rebellious, non-heavenly ways of humans then and now.


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Riktare - I'd appreciate some sourcing for your post above or some further illumination on its meaning. For example, what does "The master's attonement was the jettisoning of all of the imperfect, rebellious, non-heavenly ways of humans then and now." mean? Did the human condition change by the death of Jesus? What was "jettisoned"? Do you mean, perhaps, the end of the rebellion and the gift of his Spirit? Thank you.

It is a shame Diego has not replied to the discussion and the answers proffered for his most important question. The UB is clear in its presentations about redemption by the blood sacrifice of another - the atonement doctrine - and is also quite clear as to the significance of both the life and the death of Jesus Christ.

188:4.1 (2016.6) Although Jesus did not die this death on the cross to atone for the racial guilt of mortal man nor to provide some sort of effective approach to an otherwise offended and unforgiving God; even though the Son of Man did not offer himself as a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God and to open the way for sinful man to obtain salvation; notwithstanding that these ideas of atonement and propitiation are erroneous, nonetheless, there are significances attached to this death of Jesus on the cross which should not be overlooked. It is a fact that Urantia has become known among other neighboring inhabited planets as the “World of the Cross.”

188:4.2 (2016.7) Jesus desired to live a full mortal life in the flesh on Urantia. Death is, ordinarily, a part of life. Death is the last act in the mortal drama. In your well-meant efforts to escape the superstitious errors of the false interpretation of the meaning of the death on the cross, you should be careful not to make the great mistake of failing to perceive the true significance and the genuine import of the Master’s death.

188:4.8 (2017.3) When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.

188:4.9 (2017.4) All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one’s fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

Me here: it is a shame that Paul was able to place such a veil over the actual Gospel OF Jesus - the "only concept which Jesus ever taught" - "the idea of God as a true and loving Father". This concept is clearly presented WITHIN the Bible, in nice red letters in some editions, and in every parable and teaching recorded in the Bible. How is it that some are so quick to completely disregard the teachings of Christ and call themselves Christ-ians to boot! Where did Jesus ever teach the blood sacrifice of either guilty OR innocent lives to appease an angry, disappointed, wrathful, and vengeful god?

Is there any doubt as to the very primitive nature and backward view of such ones? According to the UB, the message of Jesus was, by design and intent, the very antithesis and contradiction to this primitive and all too human invention. Still, its adherents claim god to be angry and that only strict ceremonies, creeds, doctrines, beliefs, and practices must be embraced and performed to protect us from god's vengeance. It is a pity.

It is also one of the reasons for the gift of the UB - to release the slaves of such nonsensical doctrines to the freedoms of our true identity as beloved children of a loving and merciful parent/creator and to further reveal the true nature and character of God as so eloquently taught by and exhibited by Jesus Christ. It is unfortunate that the Christian church has managed to undo, despoil, and torture this very message delivered BY Jesus as he walked among us and delivered to humanity within the gospels written about him long after. The Judeo/Romanization of such a wonderful message of upliftment and joy turned it into an angry and fearful indictment of perpetual guilt, shame, and punishment.

Just how does a modern mind cling to such foolishness and by that, accuse God of such human attributes? Still, the church makes god in the image of man and shrinks god into pathetic and distorted shadows of the very worst of what our animal fears can create.

No need for "theological battle" Diego....the theology of atonement is illogical, unreasonable, defeated and contradicted by the words of Jesus within the Bible itself (no need for the UB to weigh in on the subject), and an obvious primitivism based on fear. What does Jesus say about fear in the Bible? Why is there nothing to fear according to Jesus in the Bible? This is not complicated Diego....many a child has abandoned such grotesque lies about God merely by the Jesusonian gospel in the Bible and by the witness of truth Jesus left us - the voice of the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus life and his death were far greater and far more important. Thankfully, we have the Urantia Papers to brilliantly illuminate the grandeur and the nature of God's friendly universe and provide us with a glimpse of the power and purpose of love, mercy, forgiveness, patience....and time to embrace that reality and the eternal adventure!! Glory Be To God Who Loves Us All....and always has!

8)


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First I apologise for not having been back in awhile. Things have been a royal mess for me, and I just haven't had the time, to be frank. I shall try to come in tomorrow. I am at the moment quite ill, so you will pardon me if I budge out. I shall try to reread the entire thread tomorrow, and respond accordingly. Until then, Peace.

Diego+


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Thank you fanoVan for the quotes... The Atonement was the primary reason for me leaving the church many moons ago. I just could not reconcile the teachings in my heart and mind and lead me on a search for truth that I knew in my heart to be true... and when I found the Urantia Book I knew I was home. Over 40yrs ago... LOL
Aloha and God's blessings always~~~

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I would also like to thank you Brad, fanofVan, for the quotes and especially your comments I've noted below. I am very passionate about this issue of the doctrine of the atonement being perhaps the greatest outrage, how it overshadows in Christianity the purest love of all, that a man would lay down his life in the most brutal way possible for the sake of his friends and have it turned into a grotesque cornerstone of anger and vengeance by God, the Father.

I've made a few additional comments in blue.

fanofVan wrote:
Me here: it is a shame that Paul was able to place such a veil over the actual Gospel OF Jesus - the "only concept which Jesus ever taught" - "the idea of God as a true and loving Father". This concept is clearly presented WITHIN the Bible, It most certainly is, in nice red letters in some editions, and in every parable and teaching recorded in the Bible. How is it that some are so quick to completely disregard the teachings of Christ and call themselves Christ-ians to boot? A truly fascinating display of the blatant disregard of the Truth Where did Jesus ever teach the blood sacrifice of either guilty OR innocent lives to appease an angry, disappointed, wrathful, and vengeful god? That is to me THE most profound question any honest Christian MUST answer. Where does it say this in the Bible? Jesus Christ never said it, and the Bible records this fact. It's an astonishing absurdity to think that anyone would have followed a man around the countryside claiming to teach the way to personal salvation is to believe that god's anger towards you for your sin will be resolved when Jesus submits to the most awful way to die at sometime in the near future to satisfy God's vengeance and anger towards you. If he had said that, they would have laughed and walked away from him immediately.

Is there any doubt as to the very primitive nature and backward view of such ones? According to the UB, the message of Jesus was, by design and intent, the very antithesis and contradiction to this primitive and all too human invention. Still, its adherents claim god to be angry Anger, the most disgusting and downright evil of man's "animal legacies" and that only strict ceremonies, creeds, doctrines, beliefs, and practices must be embraced and performed to protect us from god's vengeance. It is a pity.

It is also one of the reasons for the gift of the UB Thank you Jesus - to release the slaves of such nonsensical doctrines to the freedoms of our true identity as beloved children of a loving and merciful parent/creator and to further reveal the true nature and character of God as so eloquently taught by and exhibited by Jesus Christ. It is unfortunate that the Christian church has managed to undo, despoil, and torture this very message delivered BY Jesus as he walked among us and delivered to humanity within the gospels written about him long after. The Judeo/Romanization of such a wonderful message of upliftment and joy turned it into an angry and fearful indictment of perpetual guilt, shame, and punishment.

Just how does a modern mind cling to such foolishness and by that, accuse God of such human attributes? Another great question. How do you do it? How can you go to sleep at night and pray to god for enlightenment and dismiss this hypocrisy! Still, the church makes god in the image of man and shrinks god into pathetic and distorted shadows of the very worst of what our animal fears can create.

No need for "theological battle" Diego....the theology of atonement is illogical, unreasonable, defeated and contradicted by the words of Jesus within the Bible itself (no need for the UB to weigh in on the subject) Exactly, and an obvious primitivism based on fear. What does Jesus say about fear in the Bible? Why is there nothing to fear according to Jesus in the Bible? This is not complicated Diego....many a child has abandoned such grotesque lies about God merely by the Jesusonian gospel in the Bible and by the witness of truth Jesus left us - the voice of the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus life and his death were far greater and far more important. Thankfully, we have the Urantia Papers to brilliantly illuminate the grandeur and the nature of God's friendly universe and provide us with a glimpse of the power and purpose of love, mercy, forgiveness, patience....and time to embrace that reality and the eternal adventure!! Glory Be To God Who Loves Us All....and always has! Amen.

It is extremely interesting that Christian doctrine attributes the common denominator of man's lowest and toughest animal legacy to spirtually overcome - VENGEANCE and ANGER- to God the Father.



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fanofVan wrote:
Me here: it is a shame that Paul was able to place such a veil over the actual Gospel OF Jesus - the "only concept which Jesus ever taught" - "the idea of God as a true and loving Father". This concept is clearly presented WITHIN the Bible, in nice red letters in some editions, and in every parable and teaching recorded in the Bible. How is it that some are so quick to completely disregard the teachings of Christ and call themselves Christ-ians to boot! Where did Jesus ever teach the blood sacrifice of either guilty OR innocent lives to appease an angry, disappointed, wrathful, and vengeful god?


I see it quite clearly taught by Jesus that he should die for us, in the Gospels. As for example,during the institution of the Holy Eucharistic Feast. Of course, Paul elaborated on it, no one disputes that.

Quote:
Is there any doubt as to the very primitive nature and backward view of such ones? According to the UB, the message of Jesus was, by design and intent, the very antithesis and contradiction to this primitive and all too human invention. Still, its adherents claim god to be angry and that only strict ceremonies, creeds, doctrines, beliefs, and practices must be embraced and performed to protect us from god's vengeance. It is a pity.


This kind of language, implying that believers in the Atonement are primitive and backward, is, shall we say, somewhat unnecessary, to put it mildly.

Quote:
It is also one of the reasons for the gift of the UB - to release the slaves of such nonsensical doctrines to the freedoms of our true identity as beloved children of a loving and merciful parent/creator and to further reveal the true nature and character of God as so eloquently taught by and exhibited by Jesus Christ. It is unfortunate that the Christian church has managed to undo, despoil, and torture this very message delivered BY Jesus as he walked among us and delivered to humanity within the gospels written about him long after. The Judeo/Romanization of such a wonderful message of upliftment and joy turned it into an angry and fearful indictment of perpetual guilt, shame, and punishment.


The latest of the Gospels would have been written by John, who lived until aD 96. So that is only 63 years after the death of Jesus.The others all would have been earlier.

Quote:
Just how does a modern mind cling to such foolishness and by that, accuse God of such human attributes? Still, the church makes god in the image of man and shrinks god into pathetic and distorted shadows of the very worst of what our animal fears can create.


Again, the abusive language is of no assistance. Some would even go so far as to refer to it as Argumentum Ad Hominem.

Quote:
No need for "theological battle" Diego....the theology of atonement is illogical, unreasonable, defeated and contradicted by the words of Jesus within the Bible itself (no need for the UB to weigh in on the subject), and an obvious primitivism based on fear. What does Jesus say about fear in the Bible? Why is there nothing to fear according to Jesus in the Bible? This is not complicated Diego....many a child has abandoned such grotesque lies about God merely by the Jesusonian gospel in the Bible and by the witness of truth Jesus left us - the voice of the Spirit of Truth.


And many have believed on these things by the Four Evangelists, and such passages as Mark 10:45, and others like unto it.

Quote:
Jesus life and his death were far greater and far more important. Thankfully, we have the Urantia Papers to brilliantly illuminate the grandeur and the nature of God's friendly universe and provide us with a glimpse of the power and purpose of love, mercy, forgiveness, patience....and time to embrace that reality and the eternal adventure!! Glory Be To God Who Loves Us All....and always has!

8)


Again, the point here is not to battle, but I think you COULD have perhaps presented your case without having to insult me. I do NOT consider myself a believer in a " angry, disappointed, wrathful, and vengeful god", or the follower of "theology of atonement {which} is illogical, unreasonable, defeated and contradicted by the words of Jesus within the Bible itself", or subjected to "an obvious primitivism based on fear."

I would prefer not to be patronised, really. Do be good enough, and kind enough, to present your case to me without that element. Thank you most kindly.


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Diego,

Brad didn't patronize you. He respectfully indicated the facts about what the Bible says and what the Christian doctrine of atonement is, that's all.

I'm pretty sure most of us who hold the teachings of the Urantia Book dear have felt that the atonement doctrine patronizes all common sense and insults the intelligence of all thinking men. Especially those who insist on taking full responsibility for their behavior and spiritual inheritance.


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Hopefully you've followed my advice and read the blog post at
http://www.angeljohn.org/2012/03/07/jesus-died-for-me/

Here's another view that may prove to be helpful as well
http://urantia-book.org/archive/readers ... ctrine.htm

These are both well worth consideration.

Larry


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