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Agon D. Onter wrote:
MannyC wrote:
The Son is created, not made


Can you provide TUB quotes to back this up, please?



1:0.1 THE UNIVERSAL FATHER is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: “You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain.” Only the concept of the Universal Father—one God in the place of many gods—enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.

120:0.3 In the course of each of these preceding bestowals Michael not only acquired the finite experience of one group of his created beings, but he also acquired an essential experience in Paradise co-operation which would, in and of itself, further contribute to constituting him the sovereign of his self-made universe.


21:1.2 Each Creator Son is the only-begotten and only-begettable offspring of the perfect union of the original concepts of the two infinite and eternal and perfect minds of the ever-existent Creators of the universe of universes. There never can be another such Son because each Creator Son is the unqualified, finished, and final expression and embodiment of all of every phase of every feature of every possibility of every divine reality that could, throughout all eternity, ever be found in, expressed by, or evolved from, those divine creative potentials which united to bring this Michael Son into existence. Each Creator Son is the absolute of the united deity concepts which constitute his divine origin.


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MannyC wrote:

The difference between created and made lies at the heart of the idolatry problem. We cannot serve two Masters. We can co-create with God by abiding in His Will, or we can make graven images, projections of our own making, that do not serve us in our progress in the Kingdom.



Mortals can create, not just make projections.

Quote:
195:7.13 (2079. 8 ) If man is only a machine, by what technique does this man come to believe or claim to know that he is only a machine? The experience of self-conscious evaluation of one’s self is never an attribute of a mere machine. A self-conscious and avowed mechanist is the best possible answer to mechanism. If materialism were a fact, there could be no self-conscious mechanist. It is also true that one must first be a moral person before one can perform immoral acts.

195:7.14 (2079.9) The very claim of materialism implies a supermaterial consciousness of the mind which presumes to assert such dogmas. A mechanism might deteriorate, but it could never progress. Machines do not think, create, dream, aspire, idealize, hunger for truth, or thirst for righteousness. They do not motivate their lives with the passion to serve other machines and to choose as their goal of eternal progression the sublime task of finding God and striving to be like him. Machines are never intellectual, emotional, aesthetic, ethical, moral, or spiritual.


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70:12.5 (798.4) Urantia mortals are entitled to liberty; they should create their systems of government; they should adopt their constitutions or other charters of civil authority and administrative procedure. And having done this, they should select their most competent and worthy fellows as chief executives. For representatives in the legislative branch they should elect only those who are qualified intellectually and morally to fulfill such sacred responsibilities. As judges of their high and supreme tribunals only those who are endowed with natural ability and who have been made wise by replete experience should be chosen.


Quote:
132:5.17 (1464.1) “3. As long as men choose to conduct the world’s business by trade and barter, they are entitled to a fair and legitimate profit. Every tradesman deserves wages for his services; the merchant is entitled to his hire. The fairness of trade and the honest treatment accorded one’s fellows in the organized business of the world create many different sorts of profit wealth, and all these sources of wealth must be judged by the highest principles of justice, honesty, and fairness. The honest trader should not hesitate to take the same profit which he would gladly accord his fellow trader in a similar transaction. While this sort of wealth is not identical with individually earned income when business dealings are conducted on a large scale, at the same time, such honestly accumulated wealth endows its possessor with a considerable equity as regards a voice in its subsequent distribution.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Mortals can create, not just make projections.


We certainly can and we certainly do create/make, things. But we can't create persons or places. These are prerogatives of the Creators.

We can make (verb) things because we move in Him who created us in His image.

Do you honestly think that the word "create" in the posts you provided are equivalent in meaning and value?

Do you know the difference between make and made? You have conflated their meanings. The first is a verb and the second is an adjective.

And adjective qualifies a noun but is not a noun.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
Machines do not think, create, dream, aspire, idealize, hunger for truth, or thirst for righteousness.


In this quote the word "create" is cause. God is the uncaused cause. As the Trinity is First, Second and Third Source and Center.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
they should create their systems of government


In this quote the word "create" is used as in to "build", a verb.


196:3.23 The idealization and attempted service of truth, beauty, and goodness is not a substitute for genuine religious experience—spiritual reality. Psychology and idealism are not the equivalent of religious reality. The projections of the human intellect may indeed originate false gods—gods in man's image—but the true God- consciousness does not have such an origin. The God-consciousness is resident in the indwelling spirit. Many of the religious systems of man come from the formulations of the human intellect, but the God-consciousness is not necessarily a part of these grotesque systems of religious slavery.

We can make a "Golden Calf", but where did the gold come from? And what lies at the very center of an atom of gold? Paradise.

Projection of the human intellect may make false gods. Does TUB create God-consciousness? No. God-consciousness resides in the indwelling spirit. Are any of you becoming slaves to TUB?

Agon D. Onter wrote:
Can you provide TUB quotes to back this up, please?


Why is it that you demand a Urantia Book quote to satisfy you? Is not our indwelling spirit sufficient? I predict that you will remain unsatisfied. You cannot satiate the Soul with false gods of your making.


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Greetings Agon,

You ask:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
[ these altered mental states could indeed contribute to creativity and artistic production.
Knowing that this connection is scientifically supported, how are
we to ethically treat these illnesses? "


Altered mental states may be creative, but there is a difference between creative and co-creative. I said that there is a fine line between co-creation and confabulation. The mind can create all sorts of nonsense in its creative imagination, but the co-creative imagination is a guided imagination. It is guided by reality.

Respectfully,
Rexford


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MannyC wrote:

Why is it that you demand a Urantia Book quote to satisfy you? Is not our indwelling spirit sufficient? I predict that you will remain unsatisfied. You cannot satiate the Soul with false gods of your making.


I am not making false gods but I am making humble efforts to more fully understand and relate to my Thought Adjuster and any other spiritual assistance that may be available to me.

I did not "demand" a TUB quote to "satisfy" me. I wrote,
Quote:
Can you provide TUB quotes to back this up, please?


The reason I requested a quote is because I was genuinely curious as to what the TUB says about the difference between "create" and "make". Curiosity, by the way, is directly relevant to the topic of this thread as it is one of the cosmic levels of thought.

Quote:
56:10.5 (646.6) The attainment of cosmologic levels of thought includes:

56:10.6 (646.7) 1. Curiosity. Hunger for harmony and thirst for beauty. Persistent attempts to discover new levels of harmonious cosmic relationships.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
I am not making false gods but I am making humble efforts to more fully understand and relate to my Thought Adjuster and any other spiritual assistance that may be available to me.


I believe you.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
I did not "demand" a TUB quote to "satisfy" me. I wrote,


You are correct and I apologize for using the word "demand".


Agon D. Onter wrote:
The reason I requested a quote is because I was genuinely curious as to what the TUB says about the difference between "create" and "make". Curiosity, by the way, is directly relevant to the topic of this thread as it is one of the cosmic levels of thought.


This is a difficulty inherent in the Author's efforts to portray ideas in the English language, as they admit to. We must be aware of the shortcoming of our language and the losses due to translations.

One thing is certain, the indwelling spirit requires no symbols or translation or intermediaries to communicate, only our wholehearted willingness.


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Rexford wrote:
Greetings Agon,

You ask:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
[ these altered mental states could indeed contribute to creativity and artistic production.
Knowing that this connection is scientifically supported, how are
we to ethically treat these illnesses? "


Altered mental states may be creative, but there is a difference between creative and co-creative. I said that there is a fine line between co-creation and confabulation. The mind can create all sorts of nonsense in its creative imagination, but the co-creative imagination is a guided imagination. It is guided by reality.

Respectfully,
Rexford


Actually, I didn't ask it. That question was part of the excerpt from the article that I was quoting. (I'm definitely not trying to use this thread to start a discussion about mental health treatments or ethics on this TUB forum.)

Your post is helpful in clarifying the difference between creative and co-creative and I agree with you.


Last edited by Agon D. Onter on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:00 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Agon D. Onter wrote:
I am not making false gods but I am making humble efforts to more fully understand and relate to my Thought Adjuster and any other spiritual assistance that may be available to me.


I believe you.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
I did not "demand" a TUB quote to "satisfy" me. I wrote,


You are correct and I apologize for using the word "demand". You were very polite in your request.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
The reason I requested a quote is because I was genuinely curious as to what the TUB says about the difference between "create" and "make". Curiosity, by the way, is directly relevant to the topic of this thread as it is one of the cosmic levels of thought.


This is a difficulty inherent in the Author's efforts to portray ideas in the English language, as they admit to. We must be aware of the shortcoming of our language and the losses due to translations.

One thing is certain, the indwelling spirit requires no symbols or translation or intermediaries to communicate, only our wholehearted willingness.


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MannyC wrote:


One thing is certain, the indwelling spirit requires no symbols or translation or intermediaries to communicate, only our wholehearted willingness.


I agree, and well said.


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Rexford wrote:
The mind can create all sorts of nonsense in its creative imagination, but the co-creative imagination is a guided imagination. It is guided by reality.

What's at the heart of most acts of depravity, if not all, is permanent or temporary mental illness in one form or another, wouldn't you agree?

(151:6.5) Jesus, looking down upon the man crouching like an animal at his feet, reached down and, taking him by the hand, stood him up and said to him: "Amos, you are not possessed of a devil; you have already heard the good news that you are a son of God. I command you to come out of this spell." And when Amos heard Jesus speak these words, there occurred such a transformation in his intellect that he was immediately restored to his right mind and the normal control of his emotions. By this time a considerable crowd had assembled from the near-by village, and these people, augmented by the swine herders from the highland above them, were astonished to see the lunatic sitting with Jesus and his followers, in possession of his right mind and freely conversing with them.

What exactly is mental illness, especially when it's temporary? Could it simply be a matter of self-suggestion combined with confused self-persuasion? Or is the idea of mental illness itself, the illusion?


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nodAmanaV wrote:
What exactly is mental illness, especially when it's temporary? Could it simply be a matter of self-suggestion combined with confused self-persuasion? Or is the idea of mental illness itself, the illusion?


Nod, this is really tough to answer, if not impossible. Medically, there are conditions that fall under the category of "Organic Brain Syndrome". Although the term is not used much any more because of the many subcategories of non Psychiatric brain diseases. Examples are, multi-infarct dementia, infectious dementias, and traumatic brain syndrome. I am sure you are aware that in TUB there is mention of minds unable to host a Father Fragment because of unspecified brain deficiencies or disorders. We have no answer and this is best left to a higher power to decipher. We must, however contend with the moral issues of how best to relate with these afflicted individuals. Compassionately, I hope.

Needless to say, creativity may be enhanced by heightened mental states, as opposed to altered mental states. True artistic expression is a soul reaching for the morontial. I would consider this a heightened state and not an altered state, which implies pathology.

Your quote above does suggest a psychological disturbance that is quite different from an organic disorder.


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Greetings nod,

You asked:
nodAmanaV wrote:
What exactly is mental illness, especially when it's temporary? Could it simply be a matter of self-suggestion combined with confused self-persuasion? Or is the idea of mental illness itself, the illusion?


There are many causes of mental illness. The list of physical causes is endless. Anything that disturbs brain function can cause mental illness, both temporary and permanent. But there are things which are not physical that also call mental illness. The worst offenders are those mental poisons Brad speaks of. They can be destructive, not only to the mind, but to the entire personality. However, there are subtle poisons which sneak up on people, those that seem innocuous but also cause lasting problems because they derange thinking in disharmonious ways. Misunderstandings concerning reality can create quite a tempest within the mind.

Misadaptation of self-conscious life to the universe results in cosmic disharmony. Final divergence of personality will from the trend of the universes terminates in intellectual isolation, personality segregation. 130:4:8

Respectfully,
Rexford


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MannyC wrote:
Your quote above does suggest a psychological disturbance that is quite different from an organic disorder.

Yes, thank you, and that's the disorder I addressed, the one that's purely psychological. Ever hear somebody say something like:

"Man, she keeps accusing me of cheating on her so I went out and did it. Why not, might as well, since I've already been dealing with the consequence of it, even though I never did."

This world is like that. Born a sinner, god is really the devil, you get my drift don't you? We're all screwed up and really bad. Why not go a little crazy? Who doesn't think like this sometimes?

Hence the realities of the term:
Thought Adjuster.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
This world is like that. Born a sinner, god is really the devil, you get my drift don't you? We're all screwed up and really bad. Why not go a little crazy? Who doesn't think like this sometimes?


Just look at the wayward prodigal son. He was lost and God was eventually able to find him and bring him back. We must also be equally aware that the self-rightous older brother who could not find forgiveness in his heart is also lost and must be found. Note that the parable of the prodigal son is open ended.

This suggests that it may be more difficult to forgive than to repent. But with God, all things are possible.


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"Only God can imagine and create" We are His children, do not the children inherit the attributes of the parents?

"You are correct and I apologize for using the word "demand" "

I have a friend/acquaintance who apologies a lot for her rash behavior. Is this a personality type? I believe it is. How to help such a person I haven't a clue . Anyone here have some UB quotes that might apply?

Battered woman syndrome: the guy beats her up and then apologies profusely! What's up with that??

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