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This is driving me mad! I currently believe that the Milky Way is Orvonton but that would make the grand universe too small in my mind hence my massive confusion. I looked at a few outside sources explaining the size of Orvonton but I still cannot reach a satisfying conclusion that will let me read the Urantia Book in peace. :x


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Hi Kelfuma. Why exactly do you think that TUB's notion that Milky Way is Orvonton makes the Grand Universe too small?


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Bart wrote:
Hi Kelfuma. Why exactly do you think that TUB's notion that Milky Way is Orvonton makes the Grand Universe too small?


Well, there would be only 7 inhabited superuniverses and then there's the central one (which may or may not be huge but it's probably huge?). It's just that this image confuses me:

Image

This was taken by the Hubble Space telescope and it shows about 10,000 galaxies. I would assume that these galaxies have a similar size to the Milky Way. If Orvonton includes groups of galaxies, my mind can better reconcile the differences between science's and the Urantia Book's size of the universe.

Or is the Master Universe just that much bigger? Does it include most of those galaxies?


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I think most (if not all) of those galaxies are part of the uninhabited universes of outer space. As such, they would be part of the master universe but not of the grand universe, which is much smaller and consists only of the seven evolving superuniverses and the central universe (0:0.6).

Note that since the seven superuniverses and central universe are all travelling within the same plane and we are looking from the inside through the cross section of near-by systems edge on to the milky way (Orvonton), most of the grand universe is hidden from our view, even though according to TUB of the ten major divisions of Orvonton, eight have been roughly identified by Urantian astronomers (15:3.2-4).


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Greetings,

This next quote says that Urantia is essentially 250,000 light years away from the center of Orvonton, but that doesn't really give us a true size, I don't think. Do the Papers mention the actual size anywhere?

The Satania system of inhabited worlds is far removed from Uversa and that great sun cluster which functions as the physical or astronomic center of the seventh superuniverse. From Jerusem, the headquarters of Satania, it is over two hundred thousand light-years to the physical center of the superuniverse of Orvonton, far, far away in the dense diameter of the Milky Way. Satania is on the periphery of the local universe, and Nebadon is now well out towards the edge of Orvonton. From the outermost system of inhabited worlds to the center of the superuniverse is a trifle less than two hundred and fifty thousand light-years. 32:2:11

Also, please excuse my ignorance, astronomy is not my specialty, but are those images taken by the Hubble telescope galaxies or spiral nebulae or both? What's the difference really? If a nebula is just gas and dirt and a galaxy has stars and planets, why are there several different kinds of nebulae listed online?
    Galaxies
    Emission nebula
    Reflection nebula
    Planetary nebula
    Dark nebula
    Globular clusters
    Open clusters

The Milky Way Galaxy is supposed to be made up of vast numbers of former spiral and other types of nebulae. (15:4:8)

And another question, what do systems, constellations, major sectors and minor sectors look like? Are they all spiral too?

Thanks,
Rexford


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Rexford wrote:
And another question, what do systems, constellations, major sectors and minor sectors look like? Are they all spiral too?


I think that they are all spiral. All motions are spiral and all motion is centered by Paradise. From the Master universe to the Ultimaton. Remember that space respirations can make a spiral motion look like a globular apple at full contraction and a a flat spiral galaxy at full expansion.


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Rexford wrote:
This next quote says that Urantia is essentially 250,000 light years away from the center of Orvonton, but that doesn't really give us a true size, I don't think. Do the Papers mention the actual size anywhere?

The Satania system of inhabited worlds is far removed from Uversa and that great sun cluster which functions as the physical or astronomic center of the seventh superuniverse. From Jerusem, the headquarters of Satania, it is over two hundred thousand light-years to the physical center of the superuniverse of Orvonton, far, far away in the dense diameter of the Milky Way. Satania is on the periphery of the local universe, and Nebadon is now well out towards the edge of Orvonton. From the outermost system of inhabited worlds to the center of the superuniverse is a trifle less than two hundred and fifty thousand light-years. 32:2:11
It seems the quote says that the 'radius' of the inhabited superuniverse is about 250,000 ly. TUB doesn’t say anything about the size of the uninhabited superuniverse, which may be larger. Also note that the overall shape of Orvonton is not circular or spherical. It is a vast elongated (elliptical) plane:
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15.3.2 From the astronomical position of Urantia, as you look through the cross section of near-by systems to the great milky way, you observe that the spheres of Orvonton are traveling in a vast elongated plane, the breadth being far greater than the thickness and the length far greater than the breadth.


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Greetings Bart,

Bart wrote:
It seems the quote says that the 'radius' of the inhabited superuniverse is about 250,000 ly. TUB doesn’t say anything about the size of the uninhabited superuniverse, which may be larger. Also note that the overall shape of Orvonton is not circular or spherical. It is a vast elongated (elliptical) plane -


That's what I meant when I said that the quote doesn't actually give us the true size of Orvonton. I don't think they tell us what part of the ellipse our planet is on. My guess is that we're farthest from the center, but it's only a guess. I don't recall reading anything specific about it in the Papers.

I believe scientists state the Milky Way is 100,000 ly in diameter. According to the Papers the Milky Way, Orvonton, can be over 500,000 ly in diameter, probably much more. I think the largest galaxy, according to Wikipedia, is over 2 million ly in size. It seems to me that there's a problem there since I think the seven superuniverses are about equal in size, which means that either the measurement of the Milky Way is wrong, or it's still growing.

The Seven Superuniverses are not primary physical organizations; nowhere do their boundaries divide a nebular family, neither do they cross a local universe, a prime creative unit. Each superuniverse is simply a geographic space clustering of approximately one seventh of the organized and partially inhabited post-Havona creation, and each is about equal in the number of local universes embraced and in the space encompassed. Nebadon, your local universe, is one of the newer creations in Orvonton, the seventh superuniverse. 12:1:12

I don't think that all so-called galaxies are superuniverses. Gigantic galaxies must contain smaller nebulae/galaxies. The Hubble photo may be a collection of nebulae/galaxies located within a superuniverse, or within a developing outer space "superuniverse".

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Rexford wrote:
That's what I meant when I said that the quote doesn't actually give us the true size of Orvonton. I don't think they tell us what part of the ellipse our planet is on. My guess is that we're farthest from the center, but it's only a guess. I don't recall reading anything specific about it in the Papers.
I think the quote means that the largest diameter of the inhabited super universe is 250,000 ly. And Urantia (Satania) is about 200,000 ly removed from the physical center of the ellipse, which is relatively far away.

Rexford wrote:
I believe scientists state the Milky Way is 100,000 ly in diameter. According to the Papers the Milky Way, Orvonton, can be over 500,000 ly in diameter, probably much more. I think the largest galaxy, according to Wikipedia, is over 2 million ly in size. It seems to me that there's a problem there since I think the seven superuniverses are about equal in size, which means that either the measurement of the Milky Way is wrong, or it's still growing.
Recent research suggests that the milky way may be much larger than previously estimated (see e.g. http://news.rpi.edu/content/2015/03/09/ ... -estimated). And the estimated size of the milky way may represent a smaller (or the smallest) diameter of the ellipse.

Rexford wrote:
I don't think that all so-called galaxies are superuniverses. Gigantic galaxies must contain smaller nebulae/galaxies. The Hubble photo may be a collection of nebulae/galaxies located within a superuniverse, or within a developing outer space "superuniverse".
Galaxies do not contain galaxies. I think much of Orvonton and the universe of universes is hidden/obscured by the so called milky way 'zone of avoidance'. The objects in the Hubble photo are some of the most distant galaxies to have been imaged by a telescope at more than 3 billion light-years, existing shortly after the hypothetical big bang. :) As such these objects are not part of the grand universe..


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I suppose I'll have to adjust the size of the grand universe in relation to the master universe. It's just that I find it very hard to comprehend that such a small space harbors the only personality creatures actually existing.


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I believe that the text infers that we are initiating eternal life in the near times of the evolution/eventuation of the Master Universe. How I see it is that after an "eternity" of living, we will be counted as those of the most ancient of beings.


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Greetings Bart,

Bart wrote:
Galaxies do not contain galaxies.


What I meant is that some of what we call galaxies in the Hubble photo may actually be spiral nebulae which will eventually become part of a superuniverse galaxy. The photo must be revealing mostly star-forming nebulae rather than galaxies. Not every one of those spiral clusters will become a superuniverse. That much doesn't make sense.

Orvonton contains former spiral nebulae, many of which maintain their spiral formation even now, which means many still appear to be spiral, or galactic in nature.

The Milky Way galaxy is composed of vast numbers of former spiral and other nebulae, and many still retain their original configuration. But as the result of internal catastrophes and external attraction, many have suffered such distortion and rearrangement as to cause these enormous aggregations to appear as gigantic luminous masses of blazing suns, like the Magellanic Cloud. The globular type of star clusters predominates near the outer margins of Orvonton. 15:4:8

According to the above quote, the Magellanic Cloud is part of the Milky Way galaxy, yet on Wikipedia, the Magellanic Cloud is also called a galaxy. There seems to be some overlap of the meaning of the word "galaxy" which is not really straight in my mind. What astronomers call a galaxy and what the Papers describe as a galaxy do not seem to exactly jibe.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Wait, so the Hubble picture is most likely looking at another uninhabited superuniverse as opposed to many superuniverses?


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Greetings Kelfuma,

Kelfuma wrote:
Wait, so the Hubble picture is most likely looking at another uninhabited superuniverse as opposed to many superuniverses?


That's my take on it, but I don't really know. I'm not an astronomer or astrophysicist. I think that Bart said, although I may be wrong, that the Hubble photo is a picture of outer space, and later he said it was a picture of the immediate post Big Bang period, (which never happened, as far as I know). Either way it doesn't matter. There are only seven superuniverses, so each of those spiral formations cannot be individual superuniverses, neither back at the time of the Big Bang nor now. Nor do we know how many superuniverses, if any, will develop in outer space, but it's unlikely that there would be that many. I would guess it to be a multiple of 3 or 7. It seems to me that those spiral thingies must coalesce at some point, bang into each other and do all sorts of interesting things. (Which reveals the limits of my scientific expertise on the subject.)

I know the measurement of time and space is a relative thing and that our scientists don't have it really nailed down yet. So, exactly how far away and how old those spiral thingies are in the photo is still in question, in my opinion. Personally, I don't think they are all galaxies. Some might be star-forming spiral nebulae. But it would not be wise to take my opinion as the final word on this subject. I'm only using logic, not actual knowledge.

The primary stage of a nebula is circular; the secondary, spiral; the tertiary stage is that of the first sun dispersion, while the quartan embraces the second and last cycle of sun dispersion, with the mother nucleus ending either as a globular cluster or as a solitary sun functioning as the center of a terminal solar system. 57:4:1

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Kelfuma,

Oh how I can relate! My confusion came from the same line of thinking. Eventually, though, I settled in my mind that yes, creature life inhabits just seven galactic systems (e.g. galaxies or perhaps very small groups of galaxies depending on how you look at it). The six other superuniverses are likely obscured by the Milky Way. The ones you see in the Hubble Deep Field and the Ultra Deep Field are *all* uninhabited, according to the revelation.

It took me awhile to reach this conclusion after having wrestled with the scales. Finally I realized that this is probably the one of the most exciting facts of having personality existence in this age of the universe. The settled universe is YOUNG. We are still here at the beginning of things. These realizations of the scope of the master universe reaffirms the enormity of adventure that awaits us in eternity. Cheers!


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