Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:08 am +0000
fanofVan wrote:An interesting recital of beliefs and opinions. You are welcome to them. Of course one's beliefs and opinions are neither fact nor truth, as you know. Others believe differently and have different opinions.
fanofVan wrote:The authors of the UB apparently disagree. The very purpose of the UB, or a very important purpose at least, is the definition of terms and concepts, as is clearly stated in the Forward. Words do have specific definitions - meanings - which can be and are agreed upon as to those. The UB defines them with great authority, specificity, redundancy, and eloquence IMO.
fanofVan wrote:The authors of the UB apparently disagree. The very purpose of the UB, or a very important purpose at least, is the definition of terms and concepts, as is clearly stated in the Forward. Words do have specific definitions - meanings - which can be and are agreed upon as to those. The UB defines them with great authority, specificity, redundancy, and eloquence IMO.
fanofVan wrote: Even an individual student will, over time and sufficient study, discover new meanings in old and well known facts we are told...and may discover new forms of study which bring good results.
fanofVan wrote:An interesting recital of beliefs and opinions. You are welcome to them. Of course one's beliefs and opinions are neither fact nor truth, as you know. Others believe differently and have different opinions.
fanofVan wrote:I think Jesus taught the masses by parable to confound his enemies...
fanofVan wrote:As to "interpretation"....hmmmmm....does one interpret facts?
fanofVan wrote:There are tens of thousands of facts in the UB that offer no need for or room for one's opinion and interpretation....they are clearly specified with authority and clarity....and provide ample opportunity, need, and value in their study! The UB is no parable or metaphor as it clearly states for itself.
fanofVan wrote:I have found meaning, benefit, and value in all those forms of seeking, study, and learning. Who says one should or should not or can or cannot learn in one way or another? You? Or me? Hahahahahah....Hardly. To say or believe such a thing would only declare our own superiority and the inferiority of others I think. Dangerous ground indeed. Merely immature inexperience and sef puffery might lead to such beliefs and claims.
Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:47 am +0000
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:06 am +0000
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:00 pm +0000
fanofVan wrote:"New meanings" means more meaning, greater meaning, more complete meaning, enhanced meaning...not a hard concept surely!!? Truths are similar, no?
fanofVan wrote:Fortunately, we have the revelation to study to answer your questions about parables! Actually Jesus taught the Apostles and others primarily by questions...as illustrated in the UB for those who study it! You seem a little "confounded" yourself there toto/Manny/Louis/loucol/JohnnyBones...so many identities/opinions to manage perhaps!?
fanofVan wrote:151:1.4 (1689.2) “In patience have I instructed you all this time. To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to the undiscerning multitudes and to those who seek our destruction, from now on, the mysteries of the kingdom shall be presented in parables. And this we will do so that those who really desire to enter the kingdom may discern the meaning of the teaching and thus find salvation, while those who listen only to ensnare us may be the more confounded in that they will see without seeing and will hear without hearing. My children, do you not perceive the law of the spirit which decrees that to him who has shall be given so that he shall have an abundance; but from him who has not shall be taken away even that which he has. Therefore will I henceforth speak to the people much in parables to the end that our friends and those who desire to know the truth may find that which they seek, while our enemies and those who love not the truth may hear without understanding. Many of these people follow not in the way of the truth. The prophet did, indeed, describe all such undiscerning souls when he said: ‘For this people’s heart has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed lest they should discern the truth and understand it in their hearts.’”
fanofVan wrote:I believe the term "stupid" is introduced by yourself...not by me. "Seeing without seeing and hearing without hearing" appears confounding indeed!
fanofVan wrote:In my 40+ years of study, I have enjoyed many forms and benefitted from them all....including insightful presentations from lecturns at conferences, intimate discussions at local study groups, break out panels and group roundtable discussions at conferences, using written study materials and secondary works like the Paramony and Concordex and now the digital search engines and other topical guides, formal classes within formal curriculum at UBIS where students learn by discussion of thoughtful and thought provoking questions and not by lecture or lesson, and then of course, and most enjoyably to me is the learning by consideration of the questions and debates and discussions by other students here and other internet discussion and study group sites. And then there is the socialization with other readers over the decades at study groups, conferences big and small, Jesus Birthday gatherings and celebrations, and here and many other places and formats....as we are instructed that association with other religionists is good for us on many levels and in many ways.
fanofVan wrote:I also agree that, similar to parables, the UB is written so as to appeal to all levels of experience, perspective, and intellect!
fanofVan wrote:And I think those opinions of mine and contents of the UB which conflict and disagree with your beliefs and words are apparent enough...don't you? I will continue to post those as opportunities are presented. Thank you.
fanofVan wrote:The parable confounds those who are enemies of truth and who are masters of prejudice....whomever they may be!
fanofVan wrote:"He also determined upon this method of teaching because it enabled him to proclaim vital truths to those who desired to know the better way while at the same time affording his enemies less opportunity to find cause for offense and for accusations against him."
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:56 pm +0000
toto wrote:fanofVan wrote:
There are tens of thousands of facts in the UB that offer no need for or room for one's opinion and interpretation....they are clearly specified with authority and clarity....and provide ample opportunity, need, and value in their study! The UB is no parable or metaphor as it clearly states for itself.
Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:03 pm +0000
toto wrote:I found this written "fact":toto wrote:fanofVan wrote:
There are tens of thousands of facts in the UB that offer no need for or room for one's opinion and interpretation....they are clearly specified with authority and clarity....and provide ample opportunity, need, and value in their study! The UB is no parable or metaphor as it clearly states for itself.
Then I found these thoughts from Bradly in UAI.
Bradly wrote:
I agree facts are not particularly useful when not utilized in conjunction with a reality based perspective, a unification and harmonization of both the material world and the spiritual world, the integration of our very being and place of being…and this requires the evolutionary assurances of faith and the revelatory assurance of truth to bring meaning to facts/knowledge.
Can we opine or interpret anything, facts included, without a reality based perspective, a unification and harmonization of both the material world and the spiriatual world etc. as you state above? Do the tens of thousands of facts in TUB stand alone?
How many persons have you tried to confuse here badly?
Louis
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:08 pm +0000
fanofVan wrote:It is obvious both quotes are accurate enough and complimentary - not contradictory as implied...the first says that facts are accurate if factual (and those presented in the UB are, IMO, factual and presented as such); and the second says the value of facts depends upon one's ability to apply them to reality. This confuses you?
fanofVan wrote:There are those readers/students of the UB who believe the text is presented as a metaphor/parable/secret code that requires interpretation and grand intellect to understand and explain (interpret). I think such an opinion is a direct contradiction of the UB itself, which does benefit by its study but speaks well enough for itself....it says what it says and doesn't say what it doesn't.
fanofVan wrote:I claim no great knowledge, education, intellect, or power to teach any others....I am happy to let the UB speak for itself and claim no superiority. But I do try to reduce my direct contradictions of the text by my study of its content.
fanofVan wrote:In my 40+ years of study, I have enjoyed many forms and benefitted from them all....including insightful presentations from lecturns at conferences, intimate discussions at local study groups, break out panels and group roundtable discussions at conferences, using written study materials and secondary works like the Paramony and Concordex and now the digital search engines and other topical guides, formal classes within formal curriculum at UBIS where students learn by discussion of thoughtful and thought provoking questions and not by lecture or lesson, and then of course, and most enjoyably to me is the learning by consideration of the questions and debates and discussions by other students here and other internet discussion and study group sites. And then there is the socialization with other readers over the decades at study groups, conferences big and small, Jesus Birthday gatherings and celebrations, and here and many other places and formats....as we are instructed that association with other religionists is good for us on many levels and in many ways.
fanofVan wrote:Glad you are reading along at UAI. Now that you are no longer allowed to participate there...for like here where you have been banished 5 times, you have been banished there. Which seems to bring you a sense of pride as you have bragged about it here....speaking of insincere.
fanofVan wrote:So you think Jesus accidentally confounded his enemies but not intentionally?
fanofVan wrote:Which you then attribute the intent to confound to Satan and thusly compare Jesus to him? Said Jesus: "...while those who listen only to ensnare us may be the more confounded in that they will see without seeing and will hear without hearing."
fanofVan wrote: It seems obvious that Jesus used parables to confound his enemies and did so intentionally. It seems you struggle to apply context to the teachings and actions of the Master in this and other regards as well....we are instructed to pay attention to his audience and the situation.
fanofVan wrote:Jesus provoked his enemies often and with effect.
fanofVan wrote:Do you think his end a surprise to him?
fanofVan wrote: Do you think him a victim?
fanofVan wrote:Who was in charge of his mission and its end do you think?
fanofVan wrote: You don't find him a provocateur?
fanofVan wrote:And a tactician and field marshal who frequently and intentionally confounded his enemies? And he had them!
fanofVan wrote:It is true that this is the third time you have made the same false claim
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:26 am +0000
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:30 am +0000
toto wrote: And then there is this claim:fanofVan wrote:In my 40+ years of study, I have enjoyed many forms and benefitted from them all....including insightful presentations from lecturns at conferences, intimate discussions at local study groups, break out panels and group roundtable discussions at conferences, using written study materials and secondary works like the Paramony and Concordex and now the digital search engines and other topical guides, formal classes within formal curriculum at UBIS where students learn by discussion of thoughtful and thought provoking questions and not by lecture or lesson, and then of course, and most enjoyably to me is the learning by consideration of the questions and debates and discussions by other students here and other internet discussion and study group sites. And then there is the socialization with other readers over the decades at study groups, conferences big and small, Jesus Birthday gatherings and celebrations, and here and many other places and formats....as we are instructed that association with other religionists is good for us on many levels and in many ways.
Sounds like quite a resume. What teaching post are you applying to?
Louis
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:25 am +0000
toto wrote:
It was God's will that man's will be done on Earth on this mission. Not even Jesus could resist this.
Louis
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:53 pm +0000
fanofVan wrote:So, you have been banished multiple times from multiple UB study group sites because of your wisdom and righteousness?
fanofVan wrote:And Gabriel remains on your list of hypocrites and miscreants I assume? A
fanofVan wrote:So the Revelation cannot teach and persons should not teach? A perplexing point of view.
fanofVan wrote:While Jesus was the Prince of Peace, he is also quoted as saying we should think not that he came to deliver peace.
fanofVan wrote: Jesus mounted a brilliant offensive movement and strategically brilliant maneuvers to give time and life to his ministry and the gospel of good news he brought to the worlds of Nebadon upon our own little rock in time and space.
fanofVan wrote:You claim above: "It was God's will that man's will be done on Earth on this mission. Not even Jesus could resist this."
Preposterous! The will of man was allowed to murder the Son of God and Creator Son of Nebadon???!! Really?! This was God's will??!! You think so?
It was not the "will of man" which prevailed nor it that murdered the Master....it was only the will of a few conspirators who manipulated a politician and a mob to have their way in the end..
fanofVan wrote:Thanks toto...for this teaching moment you have offered. For by your claims and opinions have I been thrust into study and contemplation and reflection on the meanings of the Master's final bestowal. We may not agree on much but still do you teach me....by lectern or otherwise hardly matters I think. Questions and disagreements are also effective to those who truly seek to learn.
fanofVan wrote:toto wrote:
And then there is this claim:
fanofVan wrote:
In my 40+ years of study, I have enjoyed many forms and benefitted from them all....including insightful presentations from lecturns at conferences, intimate discussions at local study groups, break out panels and group roundtable discussions at conferences, using written study materials and secondary works like the Paramony and Concordex and now the digital search engines and other topical guides, formal classes within formal curriculum at UBIS where students learn by discussion of thoughtful and thought provoking questions and not by lecture or lesson, and then of course, and most enjoyably to me is the learning by consideration of the questions and debates and discussions by other students here and other internet discussion and study group sites. And then there is the socialization with other readers over the decades at study groups, conferences big and small, Jesus Birthday gatherings and celebrations, and here and many other places and formats....as we are instructed that association with other religionists is good for us on many levels and in many ways.
Sounds like quite a resume. What teaching post are you applying to?
Louis
An odd response and provocation don't you think?
fanofVan wrote:I did not require nor criticize any format but merely acknowledged that different forms of study and learning appeal to different people differently. You find this prideful? Interesting....and entirely weird.
fanofVan wrote:Me here: The angels might lead us into troublous ways as a loving discipline to save our ease-seeking and ease-drifting souls??!! You bet they will....and do! As will and does the TA too!
fanofVan wrote:NO, it was not mortal will or any mortal's will that ended the life of Jesus and God did not submit his will to any man's either. Jesus lived and died in his trusting embrace of God's will....that the Spirit dominate the material and the temporal bow to the immortal by faith and by love....or so I understand the UB to teach!
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:05 am +0000
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:21 am +0000
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:26 am +0000