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i think anyone who reads the book for awhile will note that it stresses living out over thinking out while placing value on the quality of our thoughts and each person is free to find their own balance between the two...that's one of the great strengths of both the 4th and 5th whatchamacallits. they can be grasped and lived out simply yet allow room for pondering the greatest of philosophical mysteries...its not an either/or to me, it's a both/and (abundant Life as i know it lol)


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'' May our good humor overcome whatever strife and turmoil we encounter here and elsewhere upon the pilgrim's path to Paradise. Frustration, disappointment, uncertainty, and failure - all are to be faced and overcome by the poise of faith assurance and each offers opportunity for growth for the sincere believer. Adventure is not possible without uncertainty! Curiosity is a gift to embrace and enjoy as God has given us all so much to learn about creation and the beings so created that reside in this cosmic family and journey home to Paradise.''

Amen Brother 8)


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103:1.1 (1129.8) The unity of religious experience among a social or racial group derives from the identical nature of the God fragment indwelling the individual. It is this divine in man that gives origin to his unselfish interest in the welfare of other men. But since personality is unique — no two mortals being alike — it inevitably follows that no two human beings can similarly interpret the leadings and urges of the spirit of divinity which lives within their minds. A group of mortals can experience spiritual unity, but they can never attain philosophic uniformity. And this diversity of the interpretation of religious thought and experience is shown by the fact that twentieth-century theologians and philosophers have formulated upward of five hundred different definitions of religion. In reality, every human being defines religion in the terms of his own experiential interpretation of the divine impulses emanating from the God spirit that indwells him, and therefore must such an interpretation be unique and wholly different from the religious philosophy of all other human beings.

103:1.2 (1130.1) When one mortal is in full agreement with the religious philosophy of a fellow mortal, that phenomenon indicates that these two beings have had a similar religious experience touching the matters concerned in their similarity of philosophic religious interpretation.

103:1.3 (1130.2) While your religion is a matter of personal experience, it is most important that you should be exposed to the knowledge of a vast number of other religious experiences (the diverse interpretations of other and diverse mortals) to the end that you may prevent your religious life from becoming egocentric — circumscribed, selfish, and unsocial.


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Is it not the least bit curious that the Master made a concerted effort at leaving no written record by his hand and insisted that his apostles and disciples refrain from making such a symbolic account of revelation as well? The followers of Jesus could not resist and disobeyed this directive eventually.

Were the celestials involved in bring us TUB disobeying Christ Michael? Did Michael change his mind on this issue of presenting revelation in symbolic form? :?


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Greetings Brad,

fanofVan wrote:
Jim seems to think we both suffer from a serious and shared malady.


And what a glorious malady it is, don't you think? I've never been so happy. If this is a sickness, then all I can do is thank God for it and hope it spreads.

Those who despise disagreement are missing out. Even the celestials agree that misunderstandings and disagreements are inevitable in a non-mechanical universe, and they are grateful, for it proves the presence of personality and free will. Read for yourself in the quote below.

If this were a mechanistic universe, if the First Great Source and Center were only a force and not also a personality, if all creation were a vast aggregation of physical matter dominated by precise laws characterized by unvarying energy actions, then might perfection obtain, even despite the incompleteness of universe status. There would be no disagreement; there would be no friction. But in our evolving universe of relative perfection and imperfection we rejoice that disagreement and misunderstanding are possible, for thereby is evidenced the fact and the act of personality in the universe. And if our creation is an existence dominated by personality, then can you be assured of the possibilities of personality survival, advancement, and achievement; we can be confident of personality growth, experience, and adventure. What a glorious universe, in that it is personal and progressive, not merely mechanical or even passively perfect! 75:8:7

I also want to say to you Brad, that I truly appreciate your stamina and courage in fighting the good fight of faith. Your ability to stay the course in the face of slings and arrows is commendable and inspiring. Stay true to your heart good fellow, stay true. Feast upon uncertainty, fatten upon disappointment, enthuse over defeat, invigorate in the presence of difficulties, exhibit indomitable courage and unconquerable faith when challenged with the inexplicable, and stay true to your faith in God.

In Friendship,
Rex


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MannyC wrote:
Is it not the least bit curious that the Master made a concerted effort at leaving no written record by his hand and insisted that his apostles and disciples refrain from making such a symbolic account of revelation as well? The followers of Jesus could not resist and disobeyed this directive eventually.

Were the celestials involved in bring us TUB disobeying Christ Michael? Did Michael change his mind on this issue of presenting revelation in symbolic form? :?


The decision to not leave any form of "relics" by Jesus was made by Michael prior to his bestowal and Jesus remembered or was reminded during the 40 day sojourn in the Perean Hills. I am unable to document ANY such instructions TO the apostles. Please post or reference that text you mention above.

Are we seriously going to consider another of your celestial conspiracy theories? Perhaps Caligastia wrote the UB to create confusion and insert error? Please...............

8)

101:7.1 (1113.7) An idea is only a theoretical plan for action, while a positive decision is a validated plan of action. A stereotype is a plan of action accepted without validation. The materials out of which to build a personal philosophy of religion are derived from both the inner and the environmental experience of the individual. The social status, economic conditions, educational opportunities, moral trends, institutional influences, political developments, racial tendencies, and the religious teachings of one’s time and place all become factors in the formulation of a personal philosophy of religion. Even the inherent temperament and intellectual bent markedly determine the pattern of religious philosophy. Vocation, marriage, and kindred all influence the evolution of one’s personal standards of life.

101:7.2 (1113.8) A philosophy of religion evolves out of a basic growth of ideas plus experimental living as both are modified by the tendency to imitate associates. The soundness of philosophic conclusions depends on keen, honest, and discriminating thinking in connection with sensitivity to meanings and accuracy of evaluation. Moral cowards never achieve high planes of philosophic thinking; it requires courage to invade new levels of experience and to attempt the exploration of unknown realms of intellectual living.

101:7.3 (1114.1) Presently new systems of values come into existence; new formulations of principles and standards are achieved; habits and ideals are reshaped; some idea of a personal God is attained, followed by enlarging concepts of relationship thereto.


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Greetings,

Jesus left nothing behind. He left no permanent writing, no likenesses and no progeny. He did that on purpose because he knows we humans are drawn toward idolatry and fetishism, not to mention it was part of his bestowal mandate.

6. To the end that you may not unnecessarily contribute to the creation of subsequent stereotyped systems of Urantia religious beliefs or other types of nonprogressive religious loyalties, we advise you still further: Leave no writings behind you on the planet. Refrain from all writing upon permanent materials; enjoin your associates to make no images or other likenesses of yourself in the flesh. See that nothing potentially idolatrous is left on the planet at the time of your departure.
7. While you will live the normal and average social life of the planet, being a normal individual of the male sex, you will probably not enter the marriage relation, which relation would be wholly honorable and consistent with your bestowal; but I must remind you that one of the incarnation mandates of Sonarington forbids the leaving of human offspring behind on any planet by a bestowal Son of Paradise origin. 120:3:7-8


Words eventually became fetishes, more especially those which were regarded as God's words; in this way the sacred books of many religions have become fetishistic prisons incarcerating the spiritual imagination of man. 88:2:6
Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning. Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book. 88:2:7


Jesus' apostles did not have the same mandate as he. They were free to write, but some tried to imitate Jesus and therefore refrained from writing or reproducing their writing.

Knowing how his Master so scrupulously avoided leaving written records behind him, Andrew steadfastly refused to multiply copies of his written narrative. A similar attitude on the part of the other apostles of Jesus greatly delayed the writing of the Gospels. 121:0:1

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Thanks Rexford!! Manny has provided yet another example of why the study of the Papers and the study group format itself is so important in being accurate about our "recollections" of what the book actually says. Unlike the once-spoken word which is so subject to misstating, misrepresenting, misremembering, or other forms of torture, twists, and abuse, the UB allows study and reference and precision in quoting and discussion and debate.

The book is for the world and all its masses and is not destined to be dominated by priests or grand intellects or charismatics or any who hold themselves up as "keepers" of the book or the gate (whatever that means). It speaks for itself clearly and redundantly so that anyone with a 6th grade education may study it and/or read it to another who cannot read but can think and know and become another cosmic citizen in this friendly universe founded by and based on love - something all can understand clearly.

I think it no accident that the book was presented at the end of the printing press age and the beginning of the digital age with just enough time to create an engine (organizations of students) of dissemination and translation and socialization. It has been thrilling to watch this mustard seed grow over these past decades. The future is inspiring to contemplate as the Most Highs shape our world and guide it toward its inevitable destiny of Light and Life.

If we look to the Master for example, as Manny suggests above, and then read and study this book about him and his life, we find an example of one who was fascinated by study and learning. Indeed, the young Jesus studied the old and ancient texts so thoroughly that he could recite them and utilize them in discussion and debate in great detail, to such a degree that he astounded and confounded many a priest and learned educator. He used this knowledge to tongue tie and embarrass his critics later in his ministry, but also to teach his apostles and disciples the truths to be discovered by such study and knowledge.

Jesus studied books and taught from those books so studied. We are given mind and curiosity for the purpose of learning about and truly experiencing the reality of the universe of universes - all of reality. The UB is our first-level primer of that reality.

We have been given the greatest of all texts about reality.

Our entire ascension career is an educational experience where study and learning and teaching are patterns and principles of ascension.

So the answer to the question posed is quite obvious - we are to study that which has been given to study, and we are to employ the knowledge of reality to living in that reality by the experiential expression of such a life of learning and doing, so yes we are to be students of the Papers for only by its study is it known and only by knowing it can it affect our living and we are to live within the reality presented to us and with far fewer confusions and errors, myth and fables, primitive fears and anxieties, and to excel at this life as sincere tadpoles eager to grow and become and realize our full potential....or so I believe.

8)


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Thank you Rexford for clarifying this about written records.


Rexford wrote:
Jesus' apostles did not have the same mandate as he. They were free to write, but some tried to imitate Jesus and therefore refrained from writing or reproducing their writing.


I assume that those celestial authors are were also free to write the papers of Urantia, but were they specifically sanctioned by Michael? I have not found any evidence of this in the papers themselves.


Rexford wrote:
Words eventually became fetishes, more especially those which were regarded as God's words; in this way the sacred books of many religions have become fetishistic prisons incarcerating the spiritual imagination of man. 88:2:6



Has TUB become the sacred book of the Jesusonians?


Rexford wrote:
Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning. Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book. 88:2:7


Perhaps not infallible seeing as the Papers themselves state as much, and perhaps not complete in containing every truth, but to some replete as to its truth content. Yet to some students of TUB, a quote from the papers is to be taken for absolute truth. This is so believed even though it is clear that many of the authors are far from perfect beings.


Rexford wrote:
Knowing how his Master so scrupulously avoided leaving written records behind him, Andrew steadfastly refused to multiply copies of his written narrative. A similar attitude on the part of the other apostles of Jesus greatly delayed the writing of the Gospels. 121:0:1


And Bible fundamentalists have certainly proclaimed every word of that book to be regarded as God's words. Who here on this forum has claimed to be a Urantia book fundamentalist?


fanofVan wrote:
The decision to not leave any form of "relics" by Jesus was made by Michael prior to his bestowal and Jesus remembered or was reminded during the 40 day sojourn in the Perean Hills. I am unable to document ANY such instructions TO the apostles. Please post or reference that text you mention above.


Perhaps not in words, Brad, but in deeds. Did not the Master say to all of his disciples, "follow me"? This was his command to those that would drink the cup with him. For those that cannot understand, this means, do as I do. I understand that you, Brad, are very respectful of documents and documentation, but actions speak louder than words, and words speak louder that written documents.


Rexford wrote:
And what a glorious malady it is, don't you think? I've never been so happy. If this is a sickness, then all I can do is thank God for it and hope it spreads.


I see that both of you are happy and self satisfied.


Rexford wrote:
I also want to say to you Brad, that I truly appreciate your stamina and courage in fighting the good fight of faith. Your ability to stay the course in the face of slings and arrows is commendable and inspiring. Stay true to your heart good fellow, stay true. Feast upon uncertainty, fatten upon disappointment, enthuse over defeat, invigorate in the presence of difficulties, exhibit indomitable courage and unconquerable faith when challenged with the inexplicable, and stay true to your faith in God.


It is very nice to get such a pep talk when faced with such formidable slings and arrows. You flatter me Rexford. You must think that I have gotten under Bradly's skin. You must think him uncertain, disappointed, and defeated. If I challenge either of you in inexplicable ways, it is for both of you to figure out. It is clear that neither of you challenge each other, as you both go down the primrose path unchallenged. Please try and figure out what I am saying to you.


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Greetings Brad,

fanofVan wrote:
Manny has provided yet another example of why the study of the Papers and the study group format itself is so important in being accurate about our "recollections" of what the book actually says.


You are so right. If you build your thinking about a given subject upon wrong facts, the entire structure is on shaky ground, if not entirely fallacious. But this happens to all of us, none of us are exempt from it. Misunderstanding, misremembering and misinterpreting are all problems that face the human mind. It's fine to try and sort it out with study and to help one another in the process. I think there's much to do about nothing when it comes to this topic. There's no question at all that there are benefits to reading and rereading the text, reflecting on it, embracing it, internalizing it and socializing it. It can't help but stimulate the value seeking self to seek and discover truth, beauty and goodness, then be enthralled whenever and wherever they are found.

In Friendship,
Rex


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fanofVan wrote:
Thanks Rexford!! Manny has provided yet another example of why the study of the Papers and the study group format itself is so important in being accurate about our "recollections" of what the book actually says. Unlike the once-spoken word which is so subject to misstating, misrepresenting, misremembering, or other forms of torture, twists, and abuse, the UB allows study and reference and precision in quoting and discussion and debate.


Once again you fail to see things clearly, Brad. Before that 7th Bestowal, the TAs were not in all persons. The Spirit of Truth was not yet with us. You say that I misstate, misrepresent, and misremember the text of TUB and that this amounts to torture and abuse. Luckily you can copy and paste with utter perfection and precision, for the sake of discussion and debate. If there is such precision in quoting then there is no need for discussion or debate. Hand persons the book and say, "here is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!". Sounds totalitarian to me.


fanofVan wrote:
The book is for the world and all its masses and is not destined to be dominated by priests or grand intellects or charismatics or any who hold themselves up as "keepers" of the book or the gate (whatever that means).


It appears to me that you and Rexford are in the running as "keepers" of the book seeing as both of your have mastered the search engines of our digital age and applied them spectacularly to referencing, studying and researching (to search and search again) TUB.


fanofVan wrote:
It speaks for itself clearly and redundantly so that anyone with a 6th grade education may study it and/or read it to another who cannot read but can think and know and become another cosmic citizen in this friendly universe founded by and based on love - something all can understand clearly.


Yes, but only with your help as teacher and mentor.


fanofVan wrote:
If we look to the Master for example, as Manny suggests above, and then read and study this book about him and his life, we find an example of one who was fascinated by study and learning. Indeed, the young Jesus studied the old and ancient texts so thoroughly that he could recite them and utilize them in discussion and debate in great detail, to such a degree that he astounded and confounded many a priest and learned educator. He used this knowledge to tongue tie and embarrass his critics later in his ministry, but also to teach his apostles and disciples the truths to be discovered by such study and knowledge.


And if your recollection were more perfect, Brad, you would recall that the Master is not to be so much of an example, but an inspiration. I have no qualms about the benefits of study and learning, but the Master only used the Hebrew scriptures to being his disciples to a new understanding beyond the text. Jesus was and is the revelation, not the text that he used a tool, soon to be discarded because it no longer fit the narrative of the new Gospel that was to be written in our hearts. Truths are to be discovered in Spirit, not in the study of symbols.


fanofVan wrote:
Jesus studied books and taught from those books so studied. We are given mind and curiosity for the purpose of learning about and truly experiencing the reality of the universe of universes - all of reality. The UB is our first-level primer of that reality.


Jesus taught with authority. He taught from the reality of his Father in heaven. This was the only Author he quoted with Authority. The Urantia Book is not a primer of God's reality. Only God is Prime!!! God is Spirit!!! The Spirit of Truth is Prime!!!


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fanofVan wrote:
The UB is our first-level primer of that reality.


Someone please step up and deny that this is a statement of idolatry!

There is only One Reality, God!


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Okay...I deny it. An entry-level text book relating the facts of cosmology is not an idol nor is its study or appreciation for it idolatry. A book describing reality is not the reality described and none have claimed such here.

Idolatry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

"Idolatry is the worship of an idol or a physical object as a representation of a god. In all the Abrahamic religions idolatry is strongly forbidden, although views as to what constitutes idolatry differ within and between them."

Me: The fear of idolatry must be idolatraphobia?

Manny - to be clear, I accused you of nothing more than misremembering. I should of been more clear. Your misremembering here is an example of the difference between discussing that which is written for reference and that which is spoken as in oral-tradition. However, IMO, your celestial conspiracies are pretty twisted. I wonder if they are a result of too little study or too much?

:wink: 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
Okay...I deny it. An entry-level text book relating the facts of cosmology is not an idol nor is its study or appreciation for it idolatry. A book describing reality is not the reality described and none have claimed such here.


I am glad to see that you wrote that a book describing reality is not the reality itself. That is progress. And it matters not that you have not claimed such because that is not the point. The point is that you regards TUB as if it is a reality. Will you now deny that TUB is not real? Explain to me how a book can describe reality and not be real. Reality is God's and God's alone. Is TUB real if it is burned in a fire and becomes ashes? Was the body of Jesus real when it became dust in the tomb?

If you claim that TUB is real then you have given it its reality and not God. You have created an idol. Idolatry is a more subtle affect than definitions from the dictionary. When you write of reality you cannot separate reality from its meaning. Reality cannot stand apart from God. To say that an object is real is to make it an idol. You write of TUB as if it were a person. You say TUB teaches, that it describes reality. Jesus did these things. Persons do these things. Has The Father bestowed personality to TUB so that it may do these things? Or have you bestowed these attributes to ink and paper?


fanofVan wrote:
Manny - to be clear, I accused you of nothing more than misremembering. I should of been more clear. Your misremembering here is an example of the difference between discussing that which is written for reference and that which is spoken as in oral-tradition. However, IMO, your celestial conspiracies are pretty twisted. I wonder if they are a result of too little study or too much?


I admit that my memory is not as perfect and precise as your copy and paste technique. I prefer the oral tradition given the choice. Coming from the horses mouth is preferable, even if it is less than precise. One cannot be so deceitful in the oral tradition because the voice inflections are telling. I cannot write to your TA but I can speak to it if I were there with you, in person. God cannot be symbolized. God does not relate in symbols.

And you do me a great injustice by accusing me of promoting the appearance of celestial conspiracies without even quoting me. You have no problem quoting a book, but you have great difficulty with throwing my written words back at me. I quote you plenty because your words about you are more telling than mine could ever be.


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Hmmmm,

I'm pretty sure Brad said that the Papers are a primer on reality. He did not say that the Papers are the only reality. They are merely a part of reality. I think we can all agree that the Papers are real; they definitely exist.

A primer is an elementary textbook which serves as an introduction to a subject. I think the Papers are an introduction to a celestial view of reality which includes, among other things, a cosmology, a correction of the facts of history and a broader revelation of the life of Jesus. It most certainly is a primer. It's not the whole shebang, just a beginning for the tadpole.

In Friendship,
Rex


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