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Speaking of sincerity.....there was a question posed and also an opinion. I am confused by your position now related thereto. If you sincerely do not think the Papers should be studied, then why are you here at a study group? If you think we can share perspective and learn and teach one with another, then why would you sincerely ask the question and pose such an opinion? I am perplexed by the inconsistency I detect....which way is it for you?

My initial response was precisely that same perplexion - you say one thing and do another. The book should not be studied and yet you attend a study group here and then tell the other students here that your opinion is the book should not be studied. I don't find you particularly annoying Manny but peculiarly inconsistent....and perhaps insincere - but only based on what you post that contradicts itself.

Please stay as long as you wish....I just took your declaration as a farewell - an announcement that seemed straight forward, so no I didn't invite you to leave so much as you announced your departure from both study and study group and I but acknowledged a logical conclusion. You said the book shouldn't be studied but that's what we do here....so........what would one conclude? Perhaps then, the insincerity was the question and opinion? A form of bait intended to catch a response? Or is the insincerity the staying here by one who doesn't believe in study of the Papers?

There I am....confused again. Oh well. Come or go, come and go. No matter to me my fellow tadpole. It's a long path to Paradise - we're sure to have many other classes in the universe-ities to come in study together whether you think it important or not here and now. My confidence lies in the text itself and not my own knowledge of it or understanding. Too much of it to feel scholarly for me. But I do know my way around the text, especially with all the new reference and research tools for me, as student, to utilize in my on going studies. I do like to mentor new readers and help with research as requested. I also like to read others' perspective to dive into the book of knowledge to measure my understanding and discover that new perspective which experience and growth deliver over time. This book is the only one I ever read that seems deeper and broader and brighter with every read. Life changing and inspiring indeed.


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fanofVan wrote:
I am confused


I agree.

fanofVan wrote:
If you sincerely do not think the Papers should be studied, then why are you here at a study group?


I am curious.

fanofVan wrote:
If you think we can share perspective and learn and teach one with another, then why would you sincerely ask the question and pose such an opinion?


Because I want to know what others think.

fanofVan wrote:
I am perplexed by the inconsistency I detect....which way is it for you?


I am curious as to your reaction to my question and to my opinion.


fanofVan wrote:
My initial response was precisely that same perplexion - you say one thing and do another.


I asked a question and offered my opinion on the question I posed. Is that what you mean by "say one thing and do another"? Are you habitually confused and perplexed? Or is it that you simply disagree with me?

fanofVan wrote:
The book should not be studied and yet you attend a study group here and then tell the other students here that your opinion is the book should not be studied.


That sounds quite tyrannical and controlling, Brad. My opinion is just that, my opinion. Take it or leave it. Seems like you cannot leave it alone.


fanofVan wrote:
I don't find you particularly annoying Manny but peculiarly inconsistent....and perhaps insincere - but only based on what you post that contradicts itself.


Perhaps you find me annoying in just a general sense and not in a particular way . Allow me to be unambiguously inconsistent. Navy blue is a dark color, but it is also a light color, in my opinion.


fanofVan wrote:
Please stay as long as you wish....I just took your declaration as a farewell - an announcement that seemed straight forward, so no I didn't invite you to leave so much as you announced your departure from both study and study group and I but acknowledged a logical conclusion.


Thank you Brad for allowing me to stay. But you were a bit presumptuous to mistake my question for a "declaration of farewell". Perhaps some wishful thinking on your part, or maybe just as you say, "a logical conclusion". Is this the same logical approach you use to study TUB?


fanofVan wrote:
You said the book shouldn't be studied but that's what we do here....so........what would one conclude? Perhaps then, the insincerity was the question and opinion?


I am questioning what is done here, for the sake of collective self evaluation. Is that allowed?


fanofVan wrote:
A form of bait intended to catch a response? Or is the insincerity the staying here by one who doesn't believe in study of the Papers?


Exactly, a form of bait. And I caught whopper. So now I am an unbeliever and I should only stay if I were to "believe in study of the Papers" as you do. Perhaps if you believe strong enough and long enough you can come to worship the Papers.


fanofVan wrote:
There I am....confused again.


Idolatry does lead to confusion.


fanofVan wrote:
My confidence lies in the text itself and not my own knowledge of it or understanding.


I prefer to place my confidence in God and God alone. "Thou shall have no god before Me"



fanofVan wrote:
I do like to mentor new readers and help with research as requested.


Very well Brad, but those shades you wear, 8), are for the blind. The pit up ahead is wide and deep.


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So, it is your opinion the Papers are unworthy of study.....and your judgment that I am blind and an idolater. Welcome back. We all have our opinions. Thanks for sharing yours. The criticism by some is often praise to another.

I remember when studying the text was almost entirely by memory. Most of the study groups I attended simply read through the book, a Paper a meeting, with some discussion during and after, locally in a reader's home (which still goes on around the world in hundreds of homes with thousands of students). Today, there are so many tools for study and topical research and so much graphic and fine art depicting the contents for visual aids and so many scholars (I'm not one) that share insights and shine light upon the book's teachings and now so many study groups in so many forms and the student body gathers together around our world making friends, forming community, working in teams.....and in study of the Papers. TruthBook has been a pioneer and bridge from the pre-digital era to the future of such a gathering of students....in study of the Papers. There are now classrooms filled with students exploring topics semester after semester organized into schools of learning and teaching. The participation rates boom and so do the study groups and those who find much fact and truth within the Papers worthy of reading and embracing and expressing in their daily walk.

The Urantia Book serves knowledge and joy and confidence in those who come to know it well. It's light does not fade as a lamp upon the pilgrim's path. It's teachings are not to be taken lightly but it is only by living them that one will come to know of the transformative power such truth and knowledge may deliver. But worship it? Never met a student yet who did so, not even one. For you wouldn't be much of a student to do so as such is completely contrary to the text itself.

I think your opinion of the issue is irrelevant, blind, and naïve...it matters not if you believe the text should be studied, for it is already and will be studied for a very long time to come.

I wonder if all who study the Papers are blind idolaters? Or just those who come to believe it is epochal revelation? Or just me?

Oh Dear!!! :shock: :? :lol: :wink: :roll: 8)


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The question posed reminds me of the example of Jesus we are given. He was a most ardent student of ancient texts and history and physics/craft (he invented a new boat still used today) and people. He became a teacher as a boy in his own family as the brother/father and showed a keen interest in learning all he could of this world of his final bestowal both before and after his growing awareness of who he truly was. He went to Rome as a teacher but also as a student. He traveled the trade routes by caravan to seek knowledge of the world (his world) and the people who lived in that time. He was known as a scholar and a teacher too.

So on the material planets, and the Mansion Worlds and System HG to the Local Universe worlds to the Supers and Havona itself - all pilgrims of time STUDY...that's reality. We are to learn of history, source, destiny, circuits, every level of existence in all the universes, how things are and work....all in preparation for each next level of education and our ultimate adventures to come. We study and learn thereby as we embrace and express that which is so learned.

We are taught that we are endowed and created for just such an education. And that we should be happy, joyful, confident, and live in anticipation of uncertainty as we face the vicissitudes and edges of conflict and confusion and uncertainty along the road to Paradise. Learning and growing is such fun!! It's all part of the great adventure!

The Papers bring great good news to all believers (in God)!!! I am grateful to have such information to inspire and give courage and reason for inner peace and happiness as beloved children in God's friendly universe and family. Oh Joy!

8)


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Right On Brad,

Did you know that there is a thing called the "Nebadon school technique"? Its a technique of mind training and spirit education (37:6.1) This whole universe is about education, and there is more than one kind of education. One type is experiential, the so-called school of hard knocks, the education we get from making mistakes and correcting them. But there are also other types of education encountered in the experience of living. In Paper 71 there is a list of the types of education we face, and #1 is the knowledge of things. The knowledge of things has to do with facts and how they fit into life. The Papers are filled with facts to sort through and understand so they can be incorporated into life.

Item #2 is the realization of meanings. If you don't start with knowledge of facts, you can't get to their meanings. Consider the quote below which tells us that knowledge of things, or facts, are the building blocks of wisdom, and wisdom is essentially the search for meaning (see 180:5:3 below). Facts are part of the symmetry of reality, and knowledge of them can only enhance one's living experience. Knowledge and study are crucial to success in life both here and hereafter.

Science is the source of facts, and mind cannot operate without facts. They are the building blocks in the construction of wisdom which are cemented together by life experience. Man can find the love of God without facts, and man can discover the laws of God without love, but man can never begin to appreciate the infinite symmetry, the supernal harmony, the exquisite repleteness of the all-inclusive nature of the First Source and Center until he has found divine law and divine love and has experientially unified these in his own evolving cosmic philosophy. 111:6:6

Wisdom comprises the consciousness of knowledge elevated to new levels of meaning and activated by the presence of the universe endowment of the adjutant of wisdom. 180:5:3


In Friendship,
Rexford


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fanofVan wrote:
So, it is your opinion the Papers are unworthy of study.....and your judgment that I am blind and an idolater.


I use your words Brad. It would be all too difficult for one who studies TUB to forgive one who blasphemes the sacred text, so I will not ask for your forgiveness.


fanofVan wrote:
The Urantia Book serves knowledge and joy and confidence in those who come to know it well.


God serves knowledge and joy and confidence in those who love Him. Do you love TUB, Brad?


fanofVan wrote:
It's light does not fade as a lamp upon the pilgrim's path.


From where does TUB source it's light? Does TUB have personality? Does TUB have a TA or even a soul?


fanofVan wrote:
It's teachings are not to be taken lightly but it is only by living them that one will come to know of the transformative power such truth and knowledge may deliver. But worship it?


You say that TUB teaches truth. What of the Spirit of Truth? Which one teaches truer? How does TUB teach? By what technique? How can word symbols of thought symbols teach reality? Words on paper are twice removed from the Reality of God. Can TUB do its teaching from a book shelf?


fanofVan wrote:
I wonder if all who study the Papers are blind idolaters? Or just those who come to believe it is epochal revelation? Or just me?


Not all, Brad. Just you and those who worship TUB as you do.


fanofVan wrote:
The Papers bring great good news to all believers (in God)!!! I am grateful to have such information to inspire and give courage and reason for inner peace and happiness as beloved children in God's friendly universe and family. Oh Joy!



Jesus brought the Gospel to all who would believe. Jesus is a twofold personality, Divine and human. If you want to know God, get your inspiration from he who was sent from God. He who has seen the Creator Son has seen the Father. Jesus is the go-to person. Would Christ Michael say to his creation when asked about the Father, "Go read it in the Papers"? No!


Rexford wrote:
Science is the source of facts, and mind cannot operate without facts. They are the building blocks in the construction of wisdom which are cemented together by life experience. Man can find the love of God without facts, and man can discover the laws of God without love, but man can never begin to appreciate the infinite symmetry, the supernal harmony, the exquisite repleteness of the all-inclusive nature of the First Source and Center until he has found divine law and divine love and has experientially unified these in his own evolving cosmic philosophy. 111:6:6



So, man can find the love of God without facts. I rest my case.


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Greetings,

Finding love without facts denies the soul the "exquisite repleteness of the all inclusive nature of God" (111:6:6). You need the facts of God and the love of God in order to arrive at a unified cosmic philosophy. So, not studying the facts leaves you the opposite of replete, which is empty and unfulfilled. Empty and unfulfilled people tend to be unhappy. Unhappiness brings sorrow and disappointment. But, "Sorrow cannot exist in the face of the consciousness of divine duty faithfully performed." (25:1:6)

My divine duty is to relate to all three levels of cosmic reality. Fact is one of those levels of reality (see quote below). To ignore it means ignoring a third of God. I don't see how that can bring anything except mental disruption from conflict and confusion. Those who wish to ignore a third of God's reality are free to do so, but at their own peril.

There are just three elements in universal reality: fact, idea, and relation. The religious consciousness identifies these realities as science, philosophy, and truth. Philosophy would be inclined to view these activities as reason, wisdom, and faith — physical reality, intellectual reality, and spiritual reality. We are in the habit of designating these realities as thing, meaning, and value. 196:3:2

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Does TUB provide you with the exquisite repleteness of the all-inclusive nature of the First Source and Center? By the study of TUB will you appreciate infinite symmetry?

If your answer is yes, then show me! Nothing anyone has said here on this forum is indicative of such a fact!

And just think, it is all yours on-line! Read and study a two thousand page book and you too can be replete! What a shame that so many people are unaware of TUB and are doomed to unhappiness. They utterly ignore or are ignorant of ⅓ of God! Oh the sorrow and disappointment! What a tragedy of an empty life so unfulfilled.

Read and study TUB and you too can complete ⅔ of God left incomplete by love alone!


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Let me first agree with your underlying premise: facts are not imperative for the function of love or for a personal religious experience with Father within or for progress in the spirit or to yield the fruits of the spirit. No one has said otherwise and so we are taught in the Papers that we are each fully encircuited in the ministry of the Spirits of the Father, Mother, and Son. Likewise, we are taught that knowledge and belief are far less important than faith and love in the ascender's survival from the world's of birth.

Nontheless, there has been sufficient evidence provided related to the importance of fact and knowledge to both our personal religious experience and to an effective/functional personal philosophy of living. It is due to the importance of facts related to source, history, destiny, circuitry for mind and spirit, Divine ministries to the each of us and the all of us, etc. that the Urantia Papers were written and given to our world. The text is replete with "why" and "how" the knowledge of that so revealed is important to the religionist.

How can one appreciate the symmetry of any reality which is unknown to them I wonder? How may one know of the meanings within any reality for which there is no knowledge? How did everything and everyone come to be? What is everything and who are everyone else in the universe of universes? What is free will and its source and purpose? How is soul born and grown and transcend the physicality of this life? What is the dual nature of mortal reality and how does one transfer the seat of identity from the natural material nature to the natural spirit nature - and why do so? What is the purpose of creation and the plan for time and space and the eternity to come? Who is God? Who is our creator (not God by the way)? What is the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth? How does God reside within us and why? What are we to do and be doing as a result of our Sonship? What are truth and beauty and goodness? Why are they important? How do knowledge and facts correlate to truth and beauty and goodness? Why are facts and knowledge helpful to the pilgrim's progress?

The answers to these and many more important questions are provided in the Papers and not in any other place. The TA and other mind ministers do not answer such questions - they do help integrate those answers into truth realization in mind and soul and confirm those answers to our mind. Wisdom is the result of integrating fact and truth in experience by the discover of the meanings and the values within a reality frame of reference. Facts are essential to truth and a philosophy of living based on a factual reality.

Why would anyone insist that ignorance and unreality are important? Why not combine love of God and others with the knowledge of how things are and how things work in this place and all other places (by the way, what exactly IS love and who IS God?)? Just because one may find God without facts does not make knowledge undesirable. Facts are certainly no substitute for faith and love and no one has suggested otherwise - but as a compliment to them, facts harmonize our experience in reality with reality itself. To embrace ignorance rather than learning is the height of foolish indolence....and slothfulness.

100:4.2 (1097.6) Religious perplexities are inevitable; there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation. The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight. And the human intellect protests against being weaned from subsisting upon the nonspiritual energies of temporal existence. The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.

2:7.11 (43.4) All truth — material, philosophic, or spiritual — is both beautiful and good. All real beauty — material art or spiritual symmetry — is both true and good. All genuine goodness — whether personal morality, social equity, or divine ministry — is equally true and beautiful. Health, sanity, and happiness are integrations of truth, beauty, and goodness as they are blended in human experience. Such levels of efficient living come about through the unification of energy systems, idea systems, and spirit systems.

2:7.12 (43.5) Truth is coherent, beauty attractive, goodness stabilizing. And when these values of that which is real are co-ordinated in personality experience, the result is a high order of love conditioned by wisdom and qualified by loyalty. The real purpose of all universe education is to effect the better co-ordination of the isolated child of the worlds with the larger realities of his expanding experience. Reality is finite on the human level, infinite and eternal on the higher and divine levels.

103:6.2 (1135.4) When man approaches the study and examination of his universe from the outside, he brings into being the various physical sciences; when he approaches the research of himself and the universe from the inside, he gives origin to theology and metaphysics. The later art of philosophy develops in an effort to harmonize the many discrepancies which are destined at first to appear between the findings and teachings of these two diametrically opposite avenues of approaching the universe of things and beings.

103:6.5 (1135.7) A logical and consistent philosophic concept of the universe cannot be built up on the postulations of either materialism or spiritism, for both of these systems of thinking, when universally applied, are compelled to view the cosmos in distortion, the former contacting with a universe turned inside out, the latter realizing the nature of a universe turned outside in. Never, then, can either science or religion, in and of themselves, standing alone, hope to gain an adequate understanding of universal truths and relationships without the guidance of human philosophy and the illumination of divine revelation.

Me: And thus we are given this 5th Epochal Revelation - to illuminate reality and provide firm footing for our personal philosophy of unifying and harmonizing that reality into our personalized religious experience and growth within that reality - as compliment to the power of love for God and the family of all creation. Or so we are taught by the Papers.

8)


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Rexford wrote:
I don't think the Adjusters make contact with the adjutant mind. They contact the soul, the supermind. But I agree, it's not easy to separate the various spiritual influences in the mind, which is why we're warned against attributing things to the Adjuster. Of course such things can't be proved or disproved, so if that's what you believe it is entirely your business. I just wanted to point out another possibility.


Hi Rexford, you bring up some additional questions. Yes, I agree and the revelators say that the adjuster primarily contacts the super-mind or super-consciousness. That doesn't mean or imply that there is no "ripple down" effect of information flow from higher mind to lower mind from genuine contact. Nor is the super-consciousness really devoid of the recognition of facts. Facts just get swallowed or encapsulated by the enormity of all else that is exchanged or experienced.

Of course I'm assuming that we all heed the warnings not to ascribe spurious thoughts, impressions, impulses or other experiences to the adjuster. To be personally certain of adjuster contact you probably need to have undergone sufficiently intense and continuous experience. And we are told that the number of humans who can operate safely with a self-acting adjuster has been diminishing for centuries or thousands of years. It is no doubt a very, very small portion of the population. In true instances where a self-acting adjuster is operating, that adjuster becomes essentially commander of all "spirit forces" that facilitate the partnership and the focal point of spiritual development and experience, doesn't it?


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On the subject of "idolatry" and Manny's claim that I or any other is guilty of such a charge, the Urantia Book is a book of knowledge. Is knowledge an "idol"? I don't think any book is sacred nor do I worship knowledge but to respect and seek knowledge and acknowledge its importance to perspective and free will choice in our daily walk in the circumstances, situations, priorities, and relationships we encounter or pursue every day, the factual presentation of universe reality brings significant effect to the mind as how best to approach and engage our daily life.

The UB is not a book of commandments or a rule book for living - but it is indeed a fact book of knowledge to help the truthseeker and God believer to "see" our place in the universe and to "know" our destiny and relationship to all else. As I said above, survival of this mortal life to the mansion worlds requires very little or no knowledge of reality but simply a response to the spirit and to love of others for the flicker or burning flame of spiritization and the fruits of the spirit as personally experienced, embraced, and expressed in this life. But knowledge does contribute in significant ways to the ascender's progress through the circles and eventual fusion I think.

God believers are neither cursed nor damned by any lack of knowledge but the reality perspective and knowledge of reality does provide important propulsion and confidence to the sincere believer (God believer). Even if one is a reader of the Papers and does not believe all the claims of the UB regarding its authority and source, still this book of knowledge has an amazing ability to expand conceptual perspective of the universe and the potential of all mortals - this in itself makes the Papers a source of inspiration and aspiration for the truthseeker pilgrims. It might help to remember that on most worlds such knowledge is common and dispersed through an educational system reflective of all the education and schools throughout the universes.

Facts and knowledge are a universal source of learning about reality. It's a big reality. Lots to learn and know. This gift is simply that....information about reality. What we do with it or about it is up to each student to determine for themselves. Some of us embrace the learning and sharing of the teachings in many different ways....including study...alone and together. Wisdom and truth are both dependent upon knowledge and experience, all united by a harmonized perspective or the unifying philosophy of daily living. Curiosity is a gift and knowledge is its quest...understanding and knowing that which may be known and understood, for its application in experience wherein wisdom may be found...and lived.

65:8.4 (739.8) As mind evolution is dependent on, and delayed by, the slow development of physical conditions, so is spiritual progress dependent on mental expansion and unfailingly delayed by intellectual retardation. But this does not mean that spiritual evolution is dependent on education, culture, or wisdom. The soul may evolve regardless of mental culture but not in the absence of mental capacity and desire — the choice of survival and the decision to achieve ever-increasing perfection — to do the will of the Father in heaven. Although survival may not depend on the possession of knowledge and wisdom, progression most certainly does.

101:2.1 (1105.5) The fact of religion consists wholly in the religious experience of rational and average human beings. And this is the only sense in which religion can ever be regarded as scientific or even psychological. The proof that revelation is revelation is this same fact of human experience: the fact that revelation does synthesize the apparently divergent sciences of nature and the theology of religion into a consistent and logical universe philosophy, a co-ordinated and unbroken explanation of both science and religion, thus creating a harmony of mind and satisfaction of spirit which answers in human experience those questionings of the mortal mind which craves to know how the Infinite works out his will and plans in matter, with minds, and on spirit.

101:2.2 (1106.1) Reason is the method of science; faith is the method of religion; logic is the attempted technique of philosophy. Revelation compensates for the absence of the morontia viewpoint by providing a technique for achieving unity in the comprehension of the reality and relationships of matter and spirit by the mediation of mind. And true revelation never renders science unnatural, religion unreasonable, or philosophy illogical.

101:5.2 (1110.5) Science deals with facts; religion is concerned only with values. Through enlightened philosophy the mind endeavors to unite the meanings of both facts and values, thereby arriving at a concept of complete reality. Remember that science is the domain of knowledge, philosophy the realm of wisdom, and religion the sphere of the faith experience.


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In further support of Manny's premise, I offer the following facts and knowledge found by study of the Papers:

101:2.15 (1107.5) The realization of religion never has been, and never will be, dependent on great learning or clever logic. It is spiritual insight, and that is just the reason why some of the world’s greatest religious teachers, even the prophets, have sometimes possessed so little of the wisdom of the world. Religious faith is available alike to the learned and the unlearned.

39:4.14 (435.7) The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them — advance in spirit status — by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always — in any sphere, in all of them — this is to choose to do the will of God. If man thus chooses, he is great, though he be the humblest citizen of Jerusem or even the least of mortals on Urantia.

:idea: :wink: 8)


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Greetings Riktare,

You wrote:
Riktare wrote:
Yes, I agree and the revelators say that the adjuster primarily contacts the super-mind or super-consciousness. That doesn't mean or imply that there is no "ripple down" effect of information flow from higher mind to lower mind from genuine contact


The "ripple down" you speak of is not so much information but fruits of the spirit (5:2:6) which are value patterns for meanings. The Adjuster does not contact the material mind, but he does make contact with the soul, and as the soul grows, it is the soul itself which eventually develops a technique to influence the material mind to coordinate mind-meanings with spiritual values.

Man consciously grows from the material toward the spiritual by the strength, power, and persistency of his own decisions; he also grows as his Thought Adjuster develops new techniques for reaching down from the spiritual to the morontial soul levels; and once the soul comes into being, it begins to grow in and of itself. 117:3:6

The soul partakes of the qualities of both the human mind and the divine spirit but persistently evolves toward augmentation of spirit control and divine dominance through the fostering of a mind function whose meanings seek to co-ordinate with true spirit value. 111:3.4


Riktare wrote:
Nor is the super-consciousness really devoid of the recognition of facts. Facts just get swallowed or encapsulated by the enormity of all else that is exchanged or experienced.


Facts are recognized and understood by the adjutant level mind where they are given meaning. It's the process of coordinating adjutant level meaning with higher spiritual values that result in soul growth and psychic circle progress. Facts don't actually get to the soul as pure facts. It's the meanings of facts that get there, but only if they are in tune with universe reality. It's in the soul where meanings are elevated by contact with values. As the personality accepts these values and attempts to act on them, the soul grows. And as the soul grows, the capacity for elevating meanings and values also grows. But facts are the building blocks of material mind for we humans. I cannot say what happens in the next life when the adjutants no longer function. I suppose the cosmic mind will provide us with the faculty for dealing with facts and new meanings.

Mortal consciousness proceeds from the fact, to the meaning, and then to the value. 118:5:3

Recognition is the intellectual process of fitting the sensory impressions received from the external world into the memory patterns of the individual. Understanding connotes that these recognized sensory impressions and their associated memory patterns have become integrated or organized into a dynamic network of principles. Meanings are derived from a combination of recognition and understanding. Meanings are nonexistent in a wholly sensory or material world. Meanings and values are only perceived in the inner or supermaterial spheres of human experience. 111:4.1-2


Riktare wrote:
In true instances where a self-acting adjuster is operating, that adjuster becomes essentially commander of all "spirit forces" that facilitate the partnership and the focal point of spiritual development and experience, doesn't it?


I don't know what you mean by "commander". Maybe you mean direct? Actually, any and all Adjusters direct spirit influences for the benefit of their personalities. I'm not quite sure what you mean though.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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fanofVan wrote:
Let me first agree with your underlying premise: facts are not imperative for the function of love or for a personal religious experience with Father within or for progress in the spirit or to yield the fruits of the spirit. No one has said otherwise and so we are taught in the Papers that we are each fully encircuited in the ministry of the Spirits of the Father, Mother, and Son. Likewise, we are taught that knowledge and belief are far less important than faith and love in the ascender's survival from the world's of birth.


I agree Brad, but I never questioned whether we should be students, I only questioned whether we should be students of TUB, or any book, for that matter. You keep saying that "we are taught"... Who is teaching us? Certainly not TUB because words on paper cannot teach. Without our TA we cannot make heads or tails of what TUB presents in written form.


fanofVan wrote:
The text is replete with "why" and "how" the knowledge of that so revealed is important to the religionist.


No text can be "replete".


fanofVan wrote:
The answers to these and many more important questions are provided in the Papers and not in any other place. The TA and other mind ministers do not answer such questions - they do help integrate those answers into truth realization in mind and soul and confirm those answers to our mind. Wisdom is the result of integrating fact and truth in experience by the discover of the meanings and the values within a reality frame of reference. Facts are essential to truth and a philosophy of living based on a factual reality.


I can agree with what you say here but I think that you sell the TA a bit short. Integration of facts requires knowledge of relations. Symmetry can only be appreciated by teaching of relationships.

fanofVan wrote:
On the subject of "idolatry" and Manny's claim that I or any other is guilty of such a charge, the Urantia Book is a book of knowledge. Is knowledge an "idol"?


Human have a propensity to make idols of everything and anything. I caution against this.


fanofVan wrote:
I don't think any book is sacred nor do I worship knowledge but to respect and seek knowledge and acknowledge its importance to perspective and free will choice in our daily walk in the circumstances, situations, priorities, and relationships we encounter or pursue every day, the factual presentation of universe reality brings significant effect to the mind as how best to approach and engage our daily life.


Humans can only respect other persons. Seek first the Kingdom and all else with be given to you.



e^iπ + Φ^2 + Φ = 0



This is the identity formula of infinite ellipses. It is perfectly symmetrical. It includes all possible motion. It describes Universal relationship.

Can you appreciate these facts from your reading of TUB? The information is in TUB but without my TA I could never have arrived at the pattern of Paradise.

Can you appreciate how the diversity of all creation be seen in these numbers?

I can appreciate the information in TUB as a great gift but the Papers could never have brought me to this understanding. I asked and it was given to me by my Teacher. Those that read TUB must be Self taught.


Science is the source of facts, and mind cannot operate without facts. They are the building blocks in the construction of wisdom which are cemented together by life experience. Man can find the love of God without facts, and man can discover the laws of God without love, but man can never begin to appreciate the infinite symmetry, the supernal harmony, the exquisite repleteness of the all-inclusive nature of the First Source and Center until he has found divine law and divine love and has experientially unified these in his own evolving cosmic philosophy. 111:6:6


Divine Law is relationship and the formula above is how the three known transcendental numbers are related. Jesus knew of these "numbers".

123:6.3 About this time Jesus met a teacher of mathematics from Damascus, and learning some new techniques of numbers, he spent much time on mathematics for several years. He developed a keen sense of numbers, distances, and proportions.

Can you discover the laws of God? Can you see the infinite symmetry, the supernal harmony, the exquisite repleteness of the all-inclusive nature of the First Source and Center? Can you appreciate the eternal ellipse? Remember that that concentric circles are symmetrical and so is the ellipse.


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The Papers ARE replete...filled with satisfying facts!!

Replete means full, often in a satisfying way. "The library was replete with bound first volumes, and Lucy, a bookworm, was happier there than any place else."
Replete shares a root with the word plenty. When you have plenty of cookies and cake, you can say your table is replete with goodies. Another cousin of replete is replenish.

We shouldn't study "books"?????!!!!!! An absurd proclamation. Is there not knowledge in books? Does one not use a map on a trek through undiscovered territory?

Facts become knowledge which is one form of being "taught"....the UB is replete with teachings about who, when, how, why, etc., etc. You graduated med school - you didn't learn the facts of chemistry, biology, anatomy, etc. from text books? Do you know the planet's geography? Without a map? You crack me up!

Then you say: "Integration of facts requires knowledge of relations. Symmetry can only be appreciated by teaching of relationships."

A direct contradiction to what you have already said. A map shows the relationship of current location and desired destiny and the routes and obstacles in between. The UB teaches how we are related one to another and to all others and to God - relationships - and the relationship of all ministering spirits to the each of us and the all of us (the Supreme) and the facts of origin, history, destiny, plan, process, purpose, etc. You say facts are irrelevant and then claim relationships are important; how does one get to the one without the other?

Where did you learn (were taught) about the TAs Manny? And the Supreme? And Paradise? And the ultimatons? How about the mechanics of soul and soul survival and the Mansion Worlds and the ascension career? Did you know of all this without the UB? How so? From whence?

You say: "Humans can only respect other persons." Who says so? You? Do you respect physics (do you wear a seat belt)? Or the ability of electricity to kill or fire to burn? Poppycock dude.

Respect is a way of treating or thinking about something or someone. People respect others who are impressive for any reason, such as being in authority — like a teacher or cop — or being older — like a grandparent. You show respect by being polite and kind. For a lot of people, taking your hat off is a show of respect. When people are insulted or treated badly, they feel they haven't been treated with respect. You can respect things as well as people. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance shows respect to your country.


Me: Symmetry and relationships cannot be known without the knowledge of the facts and persons which are so related.

Seriously Manny, you are making no sense. We are given the inner life and light and pilot and now we are given this textbook of fact and relationship but you say it should not be studied to learn. Why then was it given I wonder? So many words and so long in coming but for no purpose according to you. Seriously??!!

:? :cry: :roll: 8)


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