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Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:52 pm +0000

3:5.2 The Father rules through his Sons; on down through the universe organization there is an unbroken chain of rulers ending with the Planetary Princes, who direct the destinies of the evolutionary spheres of the Father’s vast domains. It is no mere poetic expression that exclaims: “The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof.” “He removes kings and sets up kings.” “The Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men.”
Thank you for an answer to this question . I have a friend that believes this.

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:07 am +0000

Greetings BassMan,

What I think you're referring to is the doctrine of the divine right of kings. I think civilization has mostly moved away from such ideas, as it should. As I understand it, the Most Highs aren't concerned with individual rulers, they're concerned about the spiritual welfare of the entire planet.

In Friendship,

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:06 pm +0000

Greetings BassMan - so are you a fisherman or a musician (sing or play bass)?

I don't believe God appoints or anoints leaders. Consider Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. And if you mean just in the USA, I would suggest the list of Presidents includes several who were incompetent or worse.

I will say I think the greater question to which you allude might be - To what extent is history affected by the multiple corps of angels and the planetary reservists and the midwayers...and how so? It's an interesting issue for speculation but I can tell you that I, personally, have no idea based on my extensive time in the text and with such speculation specifically in mind for research.

I think kings and presidents and popes may have had far less to do with planetary progress than one might think. From whom and whence do the great thoughts and insights and discoveries and inspirations and inventiveness of history come? Is civilization advanced more from the upper levels of social standing or closer to ground level? Some might say it was the slave that most advanced civilization rather than the slave owner....or the stone mason who built the arch and vaulted roof rather than the emporer who ordered the cathedral to be built.

Interesting to consider as the course and flow of history is filled with turning points and serendipity that changed things forever after.


Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:43 am +0000

Great question! I'm not an expert on the UB like these other guys but here is my two cents :)

I believe the Divine Right of Kings is erroneous and hurtful to society. The best way to steer ourselves straight of this error might be to consider a practical example. A great practical example is how Jesus dealt with the civil magistrate in the UB when his brother Jude had verbally exploded on a guard.

It repeatedly states that Jesus and Jude were delayed in their plans by this unnecessary happening. If Jude had held his tongue, being circumspect in his reasoning as his older brother Jesus was, Jude could've avoided being arrested and the prospect of losing his freedom.

In stark contrast, Jesus was calmly respectful to all authorities involved, both the guard, and the judge. He was diplomatic and congenial, yet he was not a doormat. He didn't hesitate to disagree with the authorities' decision when it came to the actual fact of his brother's freedom.

This is why, even though I personally believe in a politically minimal state I don't go to the branches of government offices that I believe aren't necessary and throw rocks through their windows or try to steal property from them, that is, the very disorder most minimal state people are accused of wanting.

When I am pulled over by an officer, I don't tell him about my political philosophy, namely, that I used my own judgment - shape of the road - the car, amount of cars around me, potential danger to myself and others, condition of my tires, windspeed, etc. to determine that I was quite safe in driving 10 MPH over the limit. That is irrelevant. All I do is smile, look him in the eye, act congenially, and help him/her as best as possible to do their job which is to state my violation and cite me appropriately. This attitude of friendliness and willingness to cooperate has resulted in only two tickets out of the dozen or so times I've been pulled over, and warnings all the other times.

Cops are eager to reward good behavior, so-to-speak. Other authorities share this trait. Usually what the authority wants is to feel powerful and important. All the subordinate must do is respect this wish, and without flattering them, make sure not to violate it either. "Civil servants," even if they fail at being worthy servants, always want to feel like they are helping society. Police long to cite actual criminals, and want to reward innocence. I think most cops probably feel pretty good about themselves when they can reward a non-criminal, while still making a show of their authority and power being acknowledged and appreciated. Everyone longs for that appreciation. Police are usually already appreciation-starved, which is probably why some snap and shoot at people that aren't threats. I'm not saying this gives them an excuse, only that people who hate the police never do themselves any favors when they show it quite too much, as Jude did.

I believe this attitude is what stems Paul's admonition to the Romans, namely, that they subject themselves to their civil authorities, their authority being derived from God. In modern language, perhaps Paul was trying to say:

"So that you don't bring reproach upon the Church or yourselves, never be unwilling to publicly demonstrate subjection to the governing authorities. To learn the process of respecting one's fellows in such a way fulfills the second and greatest commandment, developing a heart-attitude of love and respect for your fellows in government, even if the legitimacy of their authority is duly questionable." I made this idea up to justify civil disobedience to other Christians who misunderstand Paul. Whatever Paul did, the authorities didn't think twice about beheading him when the time came, and I highly doubt this reaction on part of the authorities was the result of a simpering Paul who wanted to follow their rules at any cost.

This is why I think the divine right of kings is such a heinous error. It seems as though people have taken an initially innocuous statement and turned it into a means for power over others--the exact opposite of what Paul intended. Paul wanted freedom internally and externally for his people, his Churches not to be arrested, maligned by others, or stymied for pointless and unproductive public demonstrations of rebellion against whatever authority happened to be governing over them at the time. Paul also said "As much as it is up to you, be at peace with all men." Outright subjection to civil declarations is not peace, but war. The war is between the self and who has a right to enact moral principles within that self. Jesus makes it clear in the UB, when it comes to ourselves and society the individual person must decide for themselves to do right or to do wrong; this is an evolutionary imperative. Morality cannot be forced from the outside, to do so more likely frustrates evolution than advances it. It is the individual decisions of God-knowing mortals that advance the race, not group decisions about what morals to enforce upon others.

Even Jesus, in response to the greatest rebellion in His universe, his immediate attitude towards such rebellion is stated in TUB as being one of non-interference. He wanted to give his straying son Lucifer every single chance to choose to turn away from evil, even if that brought the rest of us "the family," of his universe, lower for 200,000+ years. That's how much God values the role of the individual in choosing to do good on their own and not through coercion. It follows then, that it cannot be justified for a comparatively crappy government on Earth that they should deem to use the methods of force to create morality in the hearts of its people. Force is only a means to an end, but when force becomes the means AND the end of creating change in society, as is often the case, this is, in my opinion, the quintessential essence of government devolution, and has often been the result of strict adherence to the doctrine of "the Divine Right of Kings."

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:12 am +0000

An alternate perspective: A so-called "divine right of kings" is no doubt a recent invention or fashioned item. Earlier than the last few hundred years, probably most leaders, commanders, kings, queens, royalty and those who accompanied and assisted them were in their positions because they represented the lines and families who had the greatest overall capabilities and probably had a deeper appreciation of life's problems and opportunities than most others. They may well have carried significantly more Adamic inheritance (biologically and culturally) than most others. Those were times when "making a difference" really meant something and the general development of mankind was heavily in play. Life struggles occurred continuously day in and day out for royalty, governors and common people alike.

Today we have a ready made world. Politicians and royalty can for the most part live more or less as parasites in the grand perspective of things. Most seem to offer nothing to the world more than the common person. Though the second world war not so long ago called into play, in extremely challenging times, at least the king and queen of Britain along with the British commander-in-chief who some have speculated to have been a destiny reservist.

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:55 am +0000


The idea that leaders are gods goes back millennia. In Paper 85 the authors outline the sequence of human worship. First it was stones and hills, followed by: plants and trees; animals; the elements; and heavenly bodies. Then, when man ran out of things to worship, he began to worship himself, claiming that some men descended from deity.

But the worship of man by man reached its height when temporal rulers commanded such veneration from their subjects and, in substantiation of such demands, claimed to have descended from deity. 85:6:5

In Friendship,

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:11 pm +0000

God has appointed Caligastia and Adam/Eve to be our leaders. It is much more self-evident on Urantia than other worlds that such leadership is conditional in relationship to the maintenance of the planetary trust. The topic implies that our leaders are those within human governmental beaurocracy, which is sometimes true. We may also look at the text and recognise Michael or Machiventa Melchizedek (or even the chief of Thought Adjusters) as our leader, concerning the planetary trust, but there is an additional factor.

This is in the foreknowledge of individuated human potential in relationship to the assigned Thought Adjuster that indwells a human being for the period of at least his mortal life. We should look upon the potential for each individual, and regard such appointment as associable with human efforts, of faith and prudence. To say, "I have achieved this rank solely of my own merit" neglects the orchestration that the Thought Adjuster has in revelation and opportunity for the person over the course of his life. That said, it is certainly conceivable that should a woman follow "the straight and narrow path", and the possibility of governorship be in the mind potential of that individual, there is this form of fore-ordainment as vested in the potential the Thought Adjuster maintains as a trust:
110:1.3 Although the divine indwellers are chiefly concerned with your spiritual preparation for the next stage of the never-ending existence, they are also deeply interested in your temporal welfare and in your real achievements on earth. They are delighted to contribute to your health, happiness, and true prosperity. They are not indifferent to your success in all matters of planetary advancement which are not inimical to your future life of eternal progress.

110:1.4 Adjusters are interested in, and concerned with, your daily doings and the manifold details of your life just to the extent that these are influential in the determination of your significant temporal choices and vital spiritual decisions and, hence, are factors in the solution of your problem of soul survival and eternal progress. The Adjuster, while passive regarding purely temporal welfare, is divinely active concerning all the affairs of your eternal future.

But I am generally a follower in the philosophy of Friedrich Hegel's course of human history (in addition to being a Urantia Book reader), namely that eventually human progress will lead to a democracy that maximizes the freedom of expression for each individual citizen. Having lived in a Constitutional Representative Democratic Republic, how obsurd to think upon the fatalism of having a leader without the conscious election of that person as my personal leader? How obsurd to think that God would not recognise human choice, individual or collective! It is my duty to select the best-suited representative for the roles that have been constitutionally chartered, but I am looking from an ethical perspective. It is not just the potential for efficiency, intellect, and coordination that I am critical of, but also the weight of his moral philosophy in relationship to his/her service in office.

When I write suited, I am not speaking of the way a candidate's advisors dress him/her, but the cross-stitching of human-Adjuster unity combined with the solid reputation from experience.

From this perspective, we see how God prepares the potential for an individual to lead and supplements this with the Revelation/opportunity to continually serve society. But the preparation does not constitute the appointment or selection, as such confirmations are constituted by human choice.

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:50 am +0000

Thanks brothers for your answers. The reason I asked because a dear friend and Urantia reader believe the Most Highs select our leaders. I don't believe that. He told to look at Paper 3:5.2 and does say that. It does seem to say that but I'm not sure. If any body has any input on this i would appreciate it. I am a bass player. Thanks!

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:59 am +0000

Greetings BassMan,

Here's the quote in question:

The Father rules through his Sons; on down through the universe organization there is an unbroken chain of rulers ending with the Planetary Princes, who direct the destinies of the evolutionary spheres of the Father's vast domains. It is no mere poetic expression that exclaims: "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." "He removes kings and sets up kings." "The Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men." 3:5:2

The chain of rulers ends with the Planetary Princes. The president of any country is far, far below a Planetary Prince. The quote within the quote is from the Bible, specifically Daniel 4:17 & 5:21. It means that God has the power to give and to take away. It also means that the true kingdom of God is in the hearts of men (souls), not on the secular thrones of men. Here's a quote that explains what Daniel meant:

In the Urantia records it is very difficult at times to know exactly who is referred to by the term "Most High." But Daniel fully understood these matters. He said, "The Most High rules in the kingdom of men and gives it to whomsoever he will." 43:3:4

The Most Highs give the kingdom to whomsoever they will, doesn't have to do with secular government, it has to with the spiritual kingdom. You have to read everything in context to make sense of it.

If you read the very next paragraph after the one in question above, it says this:

In the affairs of men's hearts the Universal Father may not always have his way; but in the conduct and destiny of a planet the divine plan prevails; the eternal purpose of wisdom and love triumphs. 3:5:3

The Most Highs are not concerned with individual persons, they are concerned with the general welfare of the the whole constellation and the carrying out of the divine plan within the hearts of men, the spiritual kingdom as explained in the quote below:

The Most Highs are not so much engaged in fostering individual advancement on the inhabited worlds; they rule in the kingdoms of men rather than in the hearts of individuals. 43:9:4

In Friendship,

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:10 pm +0000

Bassman - welcome and glad you are with us here.

Please note the quotation marks within the quote. These mean, throughout the entirety of the Papers, that these are unattributed quotes of human authors in ancient to modern texts and are not attributable to the author of the Paper in which they are found and included. These ones are most likely Old Testament (it'll take some research to specify book, chapter, and verse). As I recall there are over 2000 such quotes within the Papers as well as over 1000 of humanity's highest concepts presented.

Indeed the Most Highs are in charge of planetary evolutionary progress and the Mortal Epochs but they do not pick all leaders, if any, and neither do they start the wars of leaders or manage the greed and power. Free will is a universal right and that free will is expressed by mortals on their planets. It is interesting to consider and speculate as to how the hands of celestials and the reservists influence mortal planetary history and we are not given any detail in the Papers about such - wisely so I presume.

It is my opinion your friend misunderstands the words and the intention or meaning of the words but that which is in quotation is not the words of the author who writes the Paper studied.

So, the Urantia Papers do not say "He removes kings and sets up kings."...someone else did, but the author does say those quotes are not mere poetic expressions. Have to look and think and study a little deeper to discern the meaning of "not mere". But as I said, there is no definitive description of just how, when, or how often the celestials influence humanity's history. The Most High has seized emergency planetary control on a few occasions but it is more by evolution, education, experience, and the influences of the Spirit that guide the course of history I think. As I said, most interesting subject.

Brad 8)

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:45 pm +0000

Bassman - I suggest your friend consider a re-read of Paper 71 "Development of the State" wherein we learn that all forms of government and all leaders are truly a reflection of the evolutionary process stretching from the most primitive to the most enlightened and that no leader is a true leader if not noble, honest, sincere, trustworthy, transparent, and selfless in service to their community/nation/world acting as stewards and servant leaders in that role of honor.

71:3.10 (803.10) The ideals of statehood must be attained by evolution, by the slow growth of civic consciousness, the recognition of the obligation and privilege of social service. At first men assume the burdens of government as a duty, following the end of the administration of political spoilsmen, but later on they seek such ministry as a privilege, as the greatest honor. The status of any level of civilization is faithfully portrayed by the caliber of its citizens who volunteer to accept the responsibilities of statehood.

71:3.11 (803.11) In a real commonwealth the business of governing cities and provinces is conducted by experts and is managed just as are all other forms of economic and commercial associations of people.

71:3.12 (803.12) In advanced states, political service is esteemed as the highest devotion of the citizenry. The greatest ambition of the wisest and noblest of citizens is to gain civil recognition, to be elected or appointed to some position of governmental trust, and such governments confer their highest honors of recognition for service upon their civil and social servants. Honors are next bestowed in the order named upon philosophers, educators, scientists, industrialists, and militarists. Parents are duly rewarded by the excellency of their children, and purely religious leaders, being ambassadors of a spiritual kingdom, receive their real rewards in another world.

Me here: Paper 114 "Seraphic Planetary Government" would also be recommended when considering how the Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men.

114:0.1 (1250.1) THE Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men through many celestial forces and agencies but chiefly through the ministry of seraphim.

1. The Sovereignty of Urantia
2. The Board of Planetary Supervisors
3. The Resident Governor General
4. The Most High Observer
5. The Planetary Government
6. The Master Seraphim of Planetary Supervision
7. The Reserve Corps of Destiny

114:6.8 (1255.7) 4. The angels of nation life. These are the “angels of the trumpets,” directors of the political performances of Urantia national life. The group now functioning in the overcontrol of international relations is the fourth corps to serve on the planet. It is particularly through the ministry of this seraphic division that “the Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men.”


Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:25 pm +0000

The answer is that human institutions, the military industrial complex, the newspress, entertainment publications, construction design processes all aspire to collaborate to select leaders for humanity. Because it has been written down in this Urantia Book, and because of the greedy aspiration for control of others' action and even thought, there is a seemingly parallel movement to uplift and establish pre-determined options for others to live by. This includes false governors, false administration, false system of classical conditioning response pattern, as option for others to live by.

A fact remains that those with true intentions of just stewardship, having not sinned and dutifully served humanity day-in & even night-out, have been detected by the seraphic planetary government. If it is the choice by the Most Highs, they will direct such angelic administrators to usher in the minds of Urantians the favourable candidate for administration. When such persons attain their rank and post within the beaurocracy of mankind, it becomes evident that divine favoritism has been working its plan the entire time.

But as far as humans are concerned, the universe broadcast circuits have been disestablished for Urantians. There is no sign of true candidate in the media. Such qualified record of service has no parallel or material symbolisation yet for Urantia. These things are knowable through the Spirit of Truth, whether one is lying, whether one intentionally has it in his will to create what he promises, whether the goal is feasible, if the leader is instructing the populace properly.

More than anything, it was a role-model that humans required, not someone to give orders but one to carry forward the predictates of the Universal Father's will. We revert to Jesus when no such ruler has attained their rank, and have established our calendar around the Roman times of his birth.

The false conception that we have of appointed leaders is that they are established by God and no effort is required in order to experiencially attain rank. The false conception that we have of ourselves is that we will be told by others who our leader is.

The example of Ras Tafarai Makonnen a.k.a. the symbol of Haile Selassie I is good: he has been divinely established as the ruler of AEthiopia because of his aristocracy. He was birthed into a pastoral monarchy, and since becoming governor of Addis Ebaba, has established a Constitutional Monarchy, as ratified by other landholders. This is the favourable circumstance of his life, and it cannot historically be repeated, but we can see how being born in aristocracy, the son of a king-of-the-earth, has aided in his quest to attain rank. But he dutifully served for many years and became well-qualified to be the just steward in his own efforts. Now, when people look back on his name and image, there is a resonance because he has well-chosen religious symbols and political acts associated with his memory. Also, is the resonance because he had earnestly strived to fulfill the will of God.

This is a fact that collaborators cannot simply cosponsor. Mit Romney has declared in 2012 election debate against Barack Hussein Obama, that every event and message he gives is thought through, that he has planned his success intrinsically according to selecting the best choice for his action his entire life. Mit Romney suggest to look at a candidate's record his whole life and say "well, there isn't anything exceptional", that everything symbolises the being's overall personality. But when we see the presentation of service-records in our media, there have been elements that are expunged, there are missing pieces, and it requires keen observence and sincere prayerful mentality in order to deduce the overall personality.

The fact is that we trust the Most Highs because they have never failed us in the wisdom of a just celestial-universal ministry for Monmatia. We cannot be overly trusting, but we must maintain our discretionary powers to evaluate our own state affairs according to what is right and just. What is right and just has coincided with the affairs of the Most Highs ever since Edentia was established as the conclave of system administrations. But since we do not know the actual responses and ordinances that are enacted from Edentia, we must have faith that this is true, and I for one will act in the belief that they are being fulfilled, on Urantia even as on Edentia.

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:51 pm +0000

SEla_Kelly wrote:But as far as humans are concerned, the universe broadcast circuits have been disestablished for Urantians. There is no sign of true candidate in the media. Such qualified record of service has no parallel or material symbolisation yet for Urantia. These things are knowable through the Spirit of Truth, whether one is lying, whether one intentionally has it in his will to create what he promises, whether the goal is feasible, if the leader is instructing the populace properly.

The system of individuated human records is continuously being improved upon and perfected by computer record facilities that store relevent health, educational, and social security data. It is spoken of that his information can be used whether to detect crime, and even the potential of inevitable attempt at crime. But we do not speak of his information as the measure of a candidate's own potential to serve.

First off, the variables being measured do not indicate such a potential. Second, our measurement of even the improper variables are not being measured so as to properly indicate the morontial status of a human individual. But these records are being obtained, even when a woman has conceived a child, it is known by the wristwatchers, when a certain metabolism shift indicates this, how many, and when the birth was successful. Mother is encouraged to track all vital signs, to encourage child to fulfill the will of God according to State's best-interests, and every delusion that may be associated. Although imperfect in manifestation, there is a perfection of the intentional status. And we cannot rule out that the right candidate was intimately coached in this manner from an early stage.

The reason why is that orphan babies often lack the necessary resources for development in the home environment. It is therefore necessary and proper that orphan children use role models for any aspect of parental relationship that is unfulfilled. This is first the idea of God but also it is foreordained that a leader should treat these orphans as brothers and sisters.

When our information is properly geared and calibrated, there will be some indication of abilities. Some actions in the public sphere the leader performs for his entire audience: his family, the immediate observers, and even the observers of his personal records. Such deeds are powerful enough to impact the Thought Adjustment of computer programers, information keepers, and other personalities associated with the individuals personal or private record. These observences cannot be suppressed, in reality become life-altering events for those who witness and much like the seraphic planetary government, other individuals will zealously work to forward the mission of the candidate. There are many persons interested to establish the proper and just leader for the world, the one who will best coordinate the fulfillment of God's will amongst a diverse and differently-abilitied population. It is not in the interest of personal wealth but for the best wealth for Urantia overall that people watch and are able to promote the right ruler.

If you were the human resources manager and you have to appoint someone who can fire you when/after appointed. Also, you know that the populace of your corporation must ratify the candidate after you have made the recommendation. You would scrupulously seek to identify the one who is actively and sincerely seeking to fulfill the will of God, not necessarily the most accomplished, and then you would search and scrape together all evidence that would convince others of the one you have found. Would you conceal things that might contraindicate his potential, and would you seek to suppress other available options, that is an evolutionary urge which is revealed in future ages to have been improper.

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Sat May 07, 2016 12:18 pm +0000

Thank you very much FanofVan. Just what I wanted to hear. I will use your info to explain to the brother. I have been conversing with him on this subject. He keeps telling me "don't worry brother the Most Highs have everything under control. They have already chosen." I tell him, they don't interfere with petty mortal elections. At the same time we have people including myself praying to the Creator to help our country from going down the toilet. I believe our nation is getting away from God and we need help!

Thank you all for your input it was greatly appreciated. With more time I will read all of it. PEACE!

Re: Does God appoint our leaders, like presidents?

Mon May 09, 2016 5:45 am +0000

Another way that the "Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men" is through the ministry of the angels, midway beings and reserve corps of destiny.

These recorded occurrences always leave me in a state of "Wow! This seems to be direct evidence of intervention of semi-physical beings with our war machinery" - even if this is only preparatory to some possible mighty intervention in a real crisis.


(As I've said before, one can safely ignore the wacky packaging text around the video and listen only to the video's content)
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