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 Post subject: Re: Holiday Celebrating
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nodAmanaV -- "What about cannabis? Do you think he might of had a toot with his fellow caravan mates in the desert? The Papers tell us his human experience was replete." This is an ignorant, juvenile question, probably asked with a smirk. Posts are expected to indicate some intelligence -- if a poster doesn't have anything intelligent to contribute then don't post.

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nodAmanaV wrote:
big·ot·ry
ˈbiɡətrē/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries

intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.


fanofVan wrote:
IMO, bigotry of any form should not be allowed or perpetuated here....



Well, that's but one and a very limited one of the definitions. Don't know why anyone pretends not to know what a bigot is - what's the game here nod?

Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Bigotry is the attitude and behavior of a bigot. We've had anti-semites, homophobes, Islamiphobes, Pope haters, etc., etc. on this board recently and in the past....a bigot is someone who believes everyone in a class is the same by color, race, culture, religion, etc. and then applies generalizations and stereotypes plus intolerance, blame, and hate to all in the group so selected.

Try some synonyms nod....it might help your understanding on the topic. . It's not intolerance to different opinions, it's intolerance to those who are different from yourself because they are different according to your own definitions and intolerances of such differences.

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 Post subject: Re: Holiday Celebrating
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I'll just point out that wine in those olden days was often rather diluted compared to wine today. And the revelators seem to put special emphasis on the fact that the wine that the apostles distributed was mixed with water.

It seems difficult to say whether a very modest amount of wine, especially with supper, would be considered a pollutant. I'd venture to say that if a person is already in conscious contact with the adjuster, an amount less than the amount required to start deadening nerve functions would not seriously affect such contact. But once the nerves start to fall asleep the higher consciousness will likewise do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Holiday Celebrating
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For me personally, I believe that each individual's spiritual capacity/ condition will determine our decisions as to when/ what to take into our bodies in terms of alcohol or other substances. For example, I am but a 'tadpole' to use fanofVan's frequent reference, and therefore, my spirituality does not require of me that I refrain from a glass of wine with a meal. However, it could very well be that as my spirituality grows and my wisdom increases, it may naturally and over time become my own preference to reduce or eliminate alcohol consumption.

Bottom line, I think as long as individuals are comfortable with it and are attentive to its affect on their spiritual, mindal, and physical states, having a glass of wine is not a problem.


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I want to draw the distinction between the ceremonial wine of formal offering (Nataniel' wedding at Cana, The Last Supper, the Cup offered to Joshua Jesus by the Sadducees) and commonly procured wines purchased at Liquor Stores in the modern day.

The consecrated wine becomes the representation of all human desires. Joshua demanded that his Apostles share the wine, and therefore internalised the spiritual conflict of the world. The drinking of the wine that both Joshua and the Apostles partook of is symbolic of Religion's subjectification to the status of the world.

Without this type of subjectification, God could not have received Urantia into His Body. Therefore, the Waters held inside the symbolic Cup, that the Sadducees offered to Joshua, cannot be denied by any true Apostle. This is therefore not a casual affair, and represents the mystery of how it is believed that the Wine held in the Cup is both Joshua's blood and from the Sadduccees. This also partially explains what Joshua told Judas Iscariot when Judas was adopted into the Apostles "we are all of one flesh".

We have another image of the same ceremonial Wine, in the Book of John Z's Revelation. It is the Cup of the Harlot, filled with the blood of the martyrs and of the saints. Symbolically, our physical bodies are representative of the Cup and the blood-wine of the martyrs and saints represents the purification of human desire through the endurance of a human brotherhood that advances the progress of Nations towards the status of Life and Light.

In Jesus, Life & Light are as one. In the same way, John the Baptist remained with Mother Elizabeth until she left time and afterwards was able to do his sacred duty. John, of the highest religious class under Moses' nation, was careful to honor the rites of the dead. To show this, he performed penance after touching the body of Zecharais. Wine comes from the dead grape, but the alcohol is manifest by the living yeast within the dead substance.

Surely, the allusion to Liquors as "Spirits" suggests the same, and therefore was the Cup evenly divided amongst the Apostles. The Apostles had the same duty to partake of the Cup as Joshua, but not in full, and therefore take we the warning upon the dangers of such a subjectification. The temptation that one must endure is the same, even though the choices of each man are not.

Note that Joshua's requirement to drink from the Cup of the Sadducees was perscribed only to His Apostles and not to members of the Jewish or Christian Church of those times.

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 Post subject: Re: Holiday Celebrating
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Sorry. I'm not buying the Magic Wine theory. Especially this part:

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Without this type of subjectification, God could not have received Urantia into His Body.


You're saying that a Creator Son who had recently completed his attainment of universe sovereignty required WINE in order to embrace his mortal creatures residing on Urantia?


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If you remember the story of Nathaniel' wedding at Cana, it was the will of the Father to turn the water into wine; even Joshua was unsure of the wisdom of Mary ben Hanna's request.

He chose to subject himself to the Baptism of John ben Zecharais - submersion in the River Jordan a very symbolic river in Moses' Nation. The Symbols in the story are necessary in order to properly adjust human understanding to the foreknowledge/clairvoyance of the Will of God.

Because of MichaEL's might, He is feared. Because of His Actual Human Experience, He is loved. If you had the choice, it is better to be loved than to be feared. That is, it is better to be Father than Master. This is my opinion, even though MichaEL asserts his equality with the Divine Minister, and the Universal Father has onetime asserted the equality between Father and Son, as well as Master.

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I agree it was only because it was the will of the Father for Jesus/ Michael to show compassion for his earthly mother and grant her request to provide more wine. The fact that the Father allowed this and Jesus carried it out demonstrates to me that the Father is not opposed to people enjoying wine (responsibly) at a celebration such as a wedding. But this just my own interpretation and opinion.


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Greetings,

I have questions concerning Mr. Kelly's posts. In regards to the following statement:

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Note that Joshua's requirement to drink from the Cup of the Sadducees was perscribed only to His Apostles and not to members of the Jewish or Christian Church of those times.


The apostles were Jewish and there was no Christian Church at the time.

What exactly is the cup of the Sadducees? The cup of sacrifice and humiliation which Jesus chose to drink did not come solely from the Sadducees. The Sadducees were only one part of the drama. (Incidentally, the Sanhedrin consisted of both Sadducees and Pharisees.)

In regards to this statement:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
The consecrated wine becomes the representation of all human desires


First of all, I don't think the original question of this topic was referring to consecrated wine, but since you bring it up I think it's worthy of discussion.

The word "consecrate" means to make something sacred. The concept of making wine sacred is meant to draw attention to its symbolism. The symbolism of a cup of wine in the first century A.D. is quite different than the symbolism we recognize today. Without going into a history lesson, I think it is safe to say that the Papers suggest the symbol of the consecrated cup of remembrance today is meant to represent fellowship with the Spirit of Truth (see quote below).

As they brought Jesus the third cup of wine, the "cup of blessing," he arose from the couch and, taking the cup in his hands, blessed it, saying: "Take this cup, all of you, and drink of it. This shall be the cup of my remembrance. This is the cup of the blessing of a new dispensation of grace and truth. This shall be to you the emblem of the bestowal and ministry of the divine Spirit of Truth. And I will not again drink this cup with you until I drink in new form with you in the Father's eternal kingdom." 179:5:1

What Jesus is saying here is that until he returned as the Spirit of Truth, he would not be able to personally (person-to-person, one-on-one) share the cup of grace and truth with all of his apostles. It has nothing to do with human desires, it has to do with the soul's desire to be with its Creator.

You write:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Joshua demanded that his Apostles share the wine, and therefore internalised the spiritual conflict of the world. The drinking of the wine that both Joshua and the Apostles partook of is symbolic of Religion's subjectification to the status of the world.


Jesus never demanded people to do anything; Jesus respected free will. The sharing of a cup of wine as part of the Passover Seder is a symbol, a symbol of freedom, specifically liberation from slavery. Four cups of wine are shared during the Seder to represent four elements of redemption and deliverance.

I don't see how internalizing spiritual conflict of the world leads to anything. First of all, there is no real spiritual conflict. Psychic conflict comes from resisting one's spiritual nature. And exactly how are you using the word "subjectification"? That word is a philosophical word which I cannot see as having any connection to the topic. Do you mean subjective, the opposite of objective ? Or do you mean a subject as in a vassal or minion? I think further elucidation is in order before attempting to discuss that issue.

I'm not sure I understand this either:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Without this type of subjectification, God could not have received Urantia into His Body.


Are you referring to the Atonement Doctrine? The idea of Jesus' blood representing atonement for sins is an idea belonging to Paul who was influenced by popular Mithraic doctrines. Recall that drinking the bull's blood was part of the ceremonial ritual which ensured eternal life. (Paper 98 Section 5) God requires nothing but faith from Urantians.

Questions regarding this statement:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Symbolically, our physical bodies are representative of the Cup and the blood-wine of the martyrs and saints represents the purification of human desire through the endurance of a human brotherhood that advances the progress of Nations towards the status of Life and Light.


I'm sorry, but I cannot make sense of this very long sentence. Our physical bodies are temples of the living God, not dead men and women. Purification of human desire is not the issue here, but dedication to seeking and doing God's will. The only sacrifice necessary is the sacrifice of self-absorption, self-pride and self-importance. Yes, I agree that this will eventually result in brotherhood and progress.

I don't think it is really possible to willfully purify one's own desires. The only way to purify the mind, to elevate it, is to allow one's psyche to be Adjustered. This is something that occurs as part of a relationship, it is a partnership that occurs on the soul level of experience.

I'd like further information on this statement as well:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
In Jesus, Life & Light are as one. In the same way, John the Baptist remained with Mother Elizabeth until she left time and afterwards was able to do his sacred duty. John, of the highest religious class under Moses' nation, was careful to honor the rites of the dead. To show this, he performed penance after touching the body of Zecharais. Wine comes from the dead grape, but the alcohol is manifest by the living yeast within the dead substance.


How is the fact that John the Baptist was a Nazarite the same as Jesus being the fulfillment of personal light and life? Recall that the Nazrite vow was threefold: 1.) Abstinence from intoxicating or fermented beverages; 2.) Never cutting the hair; 3.) Avoidance of touching the dead. Jesus was not a Nazarite (see quote below).

But Jesus was very positive in making it clear that he and his disciples would not become allied to any of these schools of thought or practice. The Son of Man was to be neither a Nazarite nor an Essene. 137:7:12

SEla_Kelly wrote:
-it is better to be Father than Master


HUH? What about the Supreme? Our Master Michael is a revelation of the Supreme, the living Father. As an experiential being, you can't have one without the other.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Mostly good questions and concern from Rexford this time. Now, I have admitted that my view was only an opinion, and I have tempred this opinion with the Equality declaration of Christ Michael and Divine Minister, also the Equality declaration of Father, Son, and Spirit.

I have stated the John was of the highest Class, but Moses and Joshua according to the Torah are not even of any class, but are chosen individuals: Moses was called by God, and Joshua was appointed by Moses.


___
Mary ben Hanna and the Servants of the Universal Father produced wine, according to the way Joshua subjected himself to the Will of the Father. (Urantia 137:4.9) “Most gladly would I do what you ask of me if it were a part of the Father's will ---" ... and then we see the Wedding Planner is told in 137:4.15 "you have kept the best of the wine until the last of the feast.”

Therefore, Joshua is not even part of any class of citizen, but in the story, he is the symbolic Ruler of the Nation after Moses. Joshua did not shake the foundation of Moses' nation; he helped to have shook the foundations of the Wall of JeRiCHo, then in modern times Joshua ben Josef came to "shake the walls of prejudice"; Urantia 172:1.3 "Jesus said: “I am not concerned with such walls of brick and stone; but I would cause the walls of prejudice, self-righteousness, and hate to crumble before this preaching of the Father's love for all men.”"

My personal views are not the same as any other person. I do not need others to agree with my opinion, that in Symbolism, "the Cup of Blessing out of the hand of Thaddeus" is the same as "the Cup filled with poison offered to Jesus/the Apostles out of the hand of Sadducees". It comes from my family tradition, from my Clanshead Tafarai Makonnen, who often said "As in this life, Joy is equally mixed with Sorrow". Even so, my Sister, Beritu "Haile Sellassie" (the Second) has told I "Don't drink Alcohol because it is poison". According to AEthiopian Custom, Cannibis Sativa is a blessing, and Alcohol is a curse. And According to American Law, Cannibis Sativa is illegal, and Alcoholic beverages is condoned according to certain regulations. Each mature Adult is required to make a choice.

Now, the Wine inside the Cup is not "Alcohol" per se, but according to Joshua's Last Supper with the Apostles, the wine is "the Fruit of the Vine". This relates to the very second story of the Vulgate Adam & Eve in Genesis, where God instructs Adam & Eve not to partake of "The Fruit of the knowledge of Good & Evil".

Atonement, according to Paul, is atoning to the will of God. He brought along the docrine of Sacrificial Atonement, but just the same states that when a better type of Atonement should be enumerated, then a people or a religious person must adjust.

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Greetings Mr. Kelly,

I don't understand what you mean by this statement:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Now, I have admitted that my view was only an opinion, and I have tempred this opinion with the Equality declaration of Christ Michael and Divine Minister, also the Equality declaration of Father, Son, and Spirit.


In what way did you temper your opinion again? What does the "Proclamation of Equality" from Michael have to do with this discussion?

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Moses was called by God, and Joshua was appointed by Moses.


How could Moses, who was merely a man, "appoint" a divine being? What exactly did Moses appoint Michael/Jesus to?

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Mary ben Hanna and the Servants of the Universal Father produced wine, according to the way Joshua subjected himself to the Will of the Father.


Wouldn't Mary's name be Mary bat Joachim? Regardless, Mary did not produce the wine at Cana. She had no superhuman abilities. She was a mere human too. However, Jesus at the time of that event, was superhuman with superhuman creative abilities.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Therefore, Joshua is not even part of any class of citizen, but in the story, he is the symbolic Ruler of the Nation after Moses.


Jesus is not a symbolic ruler, nor is he a ruler of a nation. He is the actual Sovereign of the entire local universe of Nebadon.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Now, the Wine inside the Cup is not "Alcohol" per se, but according to Joshua's Last Supper with the Apostles, the wine is "the Fruit of the Vine". This relates to the very second story of the Vulgate Adam & Eve in Genesis, where God instructs Adam & Eve not to partake of "The Fruit of the knowledge of Good & Evil".


I think the fruit of the vine would better represent the fruits of the spirit which one produces when connected to the vine, the Spirit of Truth. Jesus said he is the vine and if we stay connected to him, we will bear much fruit:

Then Jesus stood up again and continued teaching his apostles: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. I am the vine, and you are the branches. And the Father requires of me only that you shall bear much fruit. The vine is pruned only to increase the fruitfulness of its branches. Every branch coming out of me which bears no fruit, the Father will take away. Every branch which bears fruit, the Father will cleanse that it may bear more fruit. Already are you clean through the word I have spoken, but you must continue to be clean. You must abide in me, and I in you; the branch will die if it is separated from the vine. As the branch cannot bear fruit except it abides in the vine, so neither can you yield the fruits of loving service except you abide in me. Remember: I am the real vine, and you are the living branches. He who lives in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit of the spirit and experience the supreme joy of yielding this spiritual harvest. If you will maintain this living spiritual connection with me, you will bear abundant fruit. If you abide in me and my words live in you, you will be able to commune freely with me, and then can my living spirit so infuse you that you may ask whatsoever my spirit wills and do all this with the assurance that the Father will grant us our petition. Herein is the Father glorified: that the vine has many living branches, and that every branch bears much fruit. And when the world sees these fruit-bearing branches — my friends who love one another, even as I have loved them — all men will know that you are truly my disciples. 180:2:1

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Atonement, according to Paul, is atoning to the will of God. He brought along the docrine of Sacrificial Atonement, but just the same states that when a better type of Atonement should be enumerated, then a people or a religious person must adjust.


Atonement requires making reparations. God does not require reparations. All that is required is the reestablishment of loyalty relations between man and God (see quote below).

The forgiveness of sin by Deity is the renewal of loyalty relations following a period of the human consciousness of the lapse of such relations as the consequence of conscious rebellion. The forgiveness does not have to be sought, only received as the consciousness of re-establishment of loyalty relations between the creature and the Creator. And all the loyal sons of God are happy, service-loving, and ever-progressive in the Paradise ascent. 89:10:6

SEla_Kelly wrote:
It comes from my family tradition, from my Clanshead Tafarai Makonnen,


Well that explains a lot. Don't Rastafarians consider smoking ganja a spiritual sacrament? Don't they also think Haile Selassie is the messiah of the Bible, God incarnate? Very quizzical traditions Mr. Kelly. No wonder they don't seem to line up with the Revelation. It really explains everything. Thanks for sharing that piece of information.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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SEla_Kelly wrote:


Because of MichaEL's might, He is feared.


Me: I must confess my confusion here. Who fears Michael? Why so? And related - who fears Father? And why so? Who fears any celestial being and why so? There is nothing to fear in all the universe of universes we are taught.

Fear comes only from ignorance and/or animal/material mind. To be afraid of Deity or a Master Son or any non-mortal is a rather ridiculous human deficiency akin to ghost fear or the evil eye or voodoo - a most primitive emotion for any God believer, a mind poison we are taught in the Papers....all mind poisons are obstacles to and retardants of spirit progress and insight.

It would be helpful if actual text were posted which supports these rather endless proclamations which most often directly contradict the teachings we have been given and study here together. Thank you.

8)


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SEla_Kelly, you're again portraying yourself too much like a prophet here and you will be prohibited from posting if you continue. Self-proclaimed prophets, channelers or mystics are not welcome or entertained. You're entitled to your opinions, but unless they're related to the teachings of the UB then those opinions don't belong here.

Larry


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You have said there is no reason to fear Michael, but I do still have fear of Michael because he represents the Supreme Being. "FanofVan" states fear is only an animal fear. But there may be psychological fears in addition to fears related to pure matters of survival. In psychology, we have fear of not enough food for the winter. Fear of the uncertainty of status for the morontia being that we is, and although you may say with certainty that you truly long to survive, can you say with assurance, without the race being won, that you have, that is survived eternally? There are psychological fears as well as animal fears, and what of even Jesus/Michael's concern "his one great anxiety is for the well being of his people" And what of Joshua at Gethsemane, Urantia 182:3.7 "painful anxiety concerning the safety of his apostles." Is this not a spiritual type of emotion, which is related to fear? Do these all relate to the mortal estate of animals?


____
Larry Watkins
I am drawing a comparison of how the qualities of Authority and might of God are represented by Michael, whereas the mercy and goodness of God are represented in Jesus. That through the seventh bestowal of MichaEL, our concept of God adjusted from that of Master to that of Father. What I have stated is merely an adaptation of the request "Do not let the greatness of God to overshadow His Goodness".


I am making the sincere attempt to only share honest relevent views.

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Greetings Mr. Kelly,

It seems to me that you are using the term "Master" to mean an overlord who demands obedience. I agree that the Old Testament concept of God as an angry monarch has evolved, as it should.

But the term "Master" as used in the Papers has an entirely different meaning. A Master is one who has gained the experience required to claim a level of proficiency or perfection. Although a Master has earned authority, a Master uses his/her power to reveal, teach, guide, enlighten, strengthen, unify and ennoble.

So I can agree that the goodness of God, given that he is a true Master, most definitely overshadows baser interpretations of his nature that were represented in the past.

God is both good and great (see 28:6:21 below). His greatness makes his absoluteness incomprehensible and worthy of a humble respect. But such greatness is not personal. As persons we need other personalities to relate to. God's goodness is what helps us recognize him as a person, a person we can love (see 2:6:1 below). And eventually, we realize that God's personal love is the greatest love, since he is love.

Greatness is synonymous with divinity. God is supremely great and good. Greatness and goodness simply cannot be divorced. They are forever made one in God. This truth is literally and strikingly illustrated by the reflective interdependence of the Secret of Greatness and the Soul of Goodness, for neither can function without the other. In reflecting other qualities of divinity, the superuniverse seconaphim can and do act alone, but the reflective estimates of greatness and of goodness appear to be inseparable. Hence, on any world, in any universe, must these reflectors of greatness and of goodness work together, always showing a dual and mutually dependent report of every being upon whom they focalize. Greatness cannot be estimated without knowing the content of goodness, while goodness cannot be portrayed without exhibiting its inherent and divine greatness. 28:6:21

In the physical universe we may see the divine beauty, in the intellectual world we may discern eternal truth, but the goodness of God is found only in the spiritual world of personal religious experience. In its true essence, religion is a faith-trust in the goodness of God. God could be great and absolute, somehow even intelligent and personal, in philosophy, but in religion God must also be moral; he must be good. Man might fear a great God, but he trusts and loves only a good God. This goodness of God is a part of the personality of God, and its full revelation appears only in the personal religious experience of the believing sons of God. 2:6:1


In Friendship,
Redford


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