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Greetings fanofVan,

You ask:
fanofVan wrote:
We're not really here to examine or measure evolutionary religions are we?


Well sure we are. Why wouldn't we? If evolutionary religion was not important then why would there be an entire Paper dedicated to it (Paper 131: The World's Religions)? If you do a search of the phrase "evolutionary religion(s)," it comes up 42 times.

Examining and measuring the world's religions as a fact finding mission is justified in my opinion. To pass judgment on another person's religion is questionable. But facts can be cruel and messy, and when exposed make people uncomfortable. A little discomfort is also fine. Don't forget that we used to eat our dead for religious reasons. That's a real uncomfortable fact, but a fact nonetheless and worthy of examination. What I found so enlightening about the Papers is that they give insight into these belief systems and explain how they came to be as well as how they evolved over time. There's no harm in it studying them. I think more harm comes from ignoring them.

fanofVan wrote:
Your presentations infer superior and inferior evolutionary religions while the UB says all are inferior and that their only redeeming value is to the extent that they illuminate truth and serve the individual religionists personal religious experience. Otherwise.....no value.


I have to take issue with the statement that the only redeeming value to religion is to serve the individual. I don't think that is accurate. Personal religion serves the individual, but organized religion is social. It is meant for socialization of individual religionists with similar viewpoints. I think it's value is obvious. Why would we have the "angels of the churches" (quote below) if organized religion didn't serve a valuable purpose? True, they are not involved in ultra-sectarianism, which I think radical Islam is, and it occasionally raises its ugly head in many religions, as you say.

3. The religious guardians. These are the "angels of the churches," the earnest contenders for that which is and has been. They endeavor to maintain the ideals of that which has survived for the sake of the safe transit of moral values from one epoch to another. They are the checkmates of the angels of progress, all the while seeking to translate from one generation to another the imperishable values of the old and passing forms into the new and therefore less stabilized patterns of thought and conduct. These angels do contend for spiritual forms, but they are not the source of ultrasectarianism and meaningless controversial divisions of professed religionists. The corps now functioning on Urantia is the fifth thus to serve. 114:6:7

fanofVan wrote:
When did the Master ever once articulate his opposition to any individual's faith or religion, no matter how inferior it might be, rather than attempt to first discover that which was held in common between them and then adding more truth and illumination by more love of each individual he ever met? Jesus conquered none by force but won a universe by love, kindness, mercy, and wisdom.


Jesus said many nasty things about the prejudice and arrogance of false teachers whom he called "whited sepulchres". He called some religionists hypocrites, and in his day and age, that was considered to be a really horrible insult. He also warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing and false shepherds. I think, as long as a person was open to truth, he was willing to teach them. He did not waste his time on those who were closed minded or not ready for truth (recall 132:7:2, the man who was not dissatisfied with himself). When radical Muslims open their minds, become dissatisfied with brutality, and are ready for truth, then you can plant the seeds. Otherwise, you're casting pearls before swine, (not that I think Muslims are swine, not at all, it's just a figure of speech).

fanofVan wrote:
Where did he teach them to fear or to vanquish such evil? Is the Master our example or Christianity?


Jesus did not teach his apostles to fear, but he did teach them to vanquish evil, to conquer the world with goodness and love. But is it good and loving to turn a blind eye, to ignore the harsh reality of murder? I think it is naivety. Love can only conquer evil if it absorbs and destroys it. Ignoring it, pretending it doesn't exist, will not destroy it. It must be dealt with head-on, with spiritual power.

Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. 188:5:2

In Friendship,
Rexford


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194:3.12 Pentecost endowed mortal man with the power to forgive personal injuries, to keep sweet in the midst of the gravest injustice, to remain unmoved in the face of appalling danger, and to challenge the evils of hate and anger by the fearless acts of love and forbearance. Urantia has passed through the ravages of great and destructive wars in its history. All participants in these terrible struggles met with defeat. There was but one victor; there was only one who came out of these embittered struggles with an enhanced reputation—that was Jesus of Nazareth and his gospel of overcoming evil with good. The secret of a better civilization is bound up in the Master’s teachings of the brotherhood of man, the good will of love and mutual trust.


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Manny says above: "First of all, it begs the question to ask why you think TUB condones anything. TUB is not a person. To say such a thing is idolatrous."

Me here: So, this text book of fact and truth is not a book of fact and truth? It is not to teach? Only people can teach? So then text books are idolatry if believed but professors may be believed because they are not books? What of the authors of text books? Very confusing position.

The book claims it is indeed for us to learn from...to eliminate error with facts and reduce confusion with truth....thus it claims to be the 5th Epochal Revelation. You seem to be denying this claim while you have previously agreed with this claim of the authors. It's okay if you don't accept the authors' claims....but it can't be both ways. To embrace the teachings so gifted and written is no form of idolatry so long as it is the teachings and not their container that are embraced and lived.

One may embrace the teachings found within without accepting its claims for itself...but how does one accept its claims and then deny the teachings or claim them to be held by the reader as a form of idolatry? Perplexing. I don't understand how the UB does not "condone" and teach with specificity....of course it does. It also points out that which is counter productive - the mind poisons - and is best avoided or displaced by the power of love and the golden rule.

It seems we have general agreement that violence, anger, hate, etc. have their roots in fear...and fear can be a reciprocating or feedback loop of reactionary self perpetuation...as long as all sides in a disagreement utilize fear as motivation. Radicals express fear and those who oppose radicals may do so with fear or without as they choose...but any act motivated by fear will have a similar harvest...fear sown becomes then the fruit of fear harvested. And on and on it goes until the fear response is overcome by the love response...as we are taught.

It is interesting to consider society's function in protecting itself from internal and external threats - society has a right to defend itself. No argument as to the right...it is the methods applied that expose the need for wisdom and integrity by both citizen and leaders and institutions. We have a long way to go to witness and benefit by such wisdom in leadership. But, until then, we have a collective right to self determine how to address and respond to real and perceived threats. As demonstrated here, there's some disagreement over such policies and it is unlikely the citizenry will come to any universal agreement as to priority and strategy. I find the disgorgement of our Muslim citizens a rather peculiar and radical strategy but that's one idea.

:roll:


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fanofVan wrote:
I find the disgorgement of our Muslim citizens a rather peculiar and radical strategy but that's one idea.
Muslim citizens will eventually disgorge anyone who is not a Muslim.


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101:2.13 (1107.3) True religion is an insight into reality, the faith-child of the moral consciousness, and not a mere intellectual assent to any body of dogmatic doctrines. True religion consists in the experience that “the Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.” Religion consists not in theologic propositions but in spiritual insight and the sublimity of the soul’s trust.

99:5.7 (1091.6) Just as certainly as men share their religious beliefs, they create a religious group of some sort which eventually creates common goals. Someday religionists will get together and actually effect co-operation on the basis of unity of ideals and purposes rather than attempting to do so on the basis of psychological opinions and theological beliefs. Goals rather than creeds should unify religionists. Since true religion is a matter of personal spiritual experience, it is inevitable that each individual religionist must have his own and personal interpretation of the realization of that spiritual experience. Let the term “faith” stand for the individual’s relation to God rather than for the creedal formulation of what some group of mortals have been able to agree upon as a common religious attitude. “Have you faith? Then have it to yourself.”

99:5.11 (1091.10) What a mistake for Christians to make when, in presenting Christ as the supreme ideal of spiritual leadership, they dare to require God-conscious men and women to reject the historic leadership of the God-knowing men who have contributed to their particular national or racial illumination during past ages.

99:6.2 (1092.2) There is a real purpose in the socialization of religion. It is the purpose of group religious activities to dramatize the loyalties of religion; to magnify the lures of truth, beauty, and goodness; to foster the attractions of supreme values; to enhance the service of unselfish fellowship; to glorify the potentials of family life; to promote religious education; to provide wise counsel and spiritual guidance; and to encourage group worship. And all live religions encourage human friendship, conserve morality, promote neighborhood welfare, and facilitate the spread of the essential gospel of their respective messages of eternal salvation.

99:6.3 (1092.3) But as religion becomes institutionalized, its power for good is curtailed, while the possibilities for evil are greatly multiplied. The dangers of formalized religion are: fixation of beliefs and crystallization of sentiments; accumulation of vested interests with increase of secularization; tendency to standardize and fossilize truth; diversion of religion from the service of God to the service of the church; inclination of leaders to become administrators instead of ministers; tendency to form sects and competitive divisions; establishment of oppressive ecclesiastical authority; creation of the aristocratic “chosen-people” attitude; fostering of false and exaggerated ideas of sacredness; the routinizing of religion and the petrification of worship; tendency to venerate the past while ignoring present demands; failure to make up-to-date interpretations of religion; entanglement with functions of secular institutions; it creates the evil discrimination of religious castes; it becomes an intolerant judge of orthodoxy; it fails to hold the interest of adventurous youth and gradually loses the saving message of the gospel of eternal salvation.

99:6.4 (1092.4) Formal religion restrains men in their personal spiritual activities instead of releasing them for heightened service as kingdom builders.

Me here: It seems that the value in group religion is based upon its ability to support and inspire the individual's personal spiritual experience.

8)


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nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
I find the disgorgement of our Muslim citizens a rather peculiar and radical strategy but that's one idea.
Muslim citizens will eventually disgorge anyone who is not a Muslim.


So American Muslims are going to deport all of us who are not Muslim? That's a good one. Or perhaps just murder us in our sleep?

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In the late 1800's my grandmother was born to a Muslim mother and a European father, an infidel. My great grandmother's Muslim family poisoned my great grandparents, leaving my grandmother and her sister orphans. They did this because Muslims who marry infidels are required to be killed. My grandmother and great aunt would have been killed too, but Catholic nuns found out about them and rescued them. Had those nuns not done this I would not be writing you to tell you about what happened.

173:1.11 (1891.1) This cleansing of the temple discloses the Master’s attitude toward commercializing the practices of religion as well as his detestation of all forms of unfairness and profiteering at the expense of the poor and the unlearned. This episode also demonstrates that Jesus did not look with approval upon the refusal to employ force to protect the majority of any given human group against the unfair and enslaving practices of unjust minorities who may be able to entrench themselves behind political, financial, or ecclesiastical power. Shrewd, wicked, and designing men are not to be permitted to organize themselves for the exploitation and oppression of those who, because of their idealism, are not disposed to resort to force for self-protection or for the furtherance of their laudable life projects.


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Greetings,

A few random thoughts:

I don't think the purpose of socializing religion is just to support and inspire the individual, but to do something of value with others, otherwise it's not social. It's all about fellowshipping a common goal. Socialization of the personality is the goal of the ascension scheme. Our meager attempts here are only a crude beginning of the brotherhood of man.

One of the strengths of Islam is its attitude toward making provisions for the poor and the ummah, a just and decent society, the group integrity of holy people who submit to God's will. This has to do with socialization of individual religionists, and in a way, the Islamic version of the brotherhood of man. The problem is in defining what it means to submit to God's will. It's imperfect, by my estimation. I don't think Mohammed intended that a global ummah must submit to the Qu'ran, but to God. Radicals think God's will is the Qu'ran. It's the problem of the fetish again, which puts the brakes on that brotherhood idea for me.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Raymond Benjamins wrote:
How will a world ever achieve an era of LIGHT and LIFE
if evil were permitted to reign supreme and glorious unhindered?



This is a good question, and I didn't feel sure about an answer until yesterday.

The answer is reigning supreme can only occur within a relative context of the beings which are endowed by God. By choosing to commit evil acts, those individuals are locally spending the tuition of goodness that God has provided them in order to do so. This tuition is of a limited supply, and it is reasonable to assume that once it is spend the evil can no longer perpetuate itself, the pleasures "dry up".

In old-time westerns, it is a common tactic of the deputy to wait until the criminal gunman has fired "6 bullets". In self-defense, he waits until the ammunitions are used up until making his move and detain the criminal. In these situations, the evil-doers are able to commit harm against those of equal status. In the case of rebellion in Nebadon, the first strategy of the divine administration was to end the tuition that Lucifer enjoyed as the ruler of Satania.

It is very difficult in the world when "1st World Nations" supply "3rd World Nations" with armaments, even though the supposed 3rd World Nation is in a status of political rebellion. Although we may agree that the victim deserves protection, we must hereby acknowledge that the supply of armament is that key issue which has perpetuated most modern wars on our world this day.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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This is not a forum where we define and remedy the world's problems. The Urantia Book Forum is for the discussion of the teachings of The Urantia Book. Our patience has been stretched and broken... this thread is locked and any new ones focusing on Islam rather than on TUB will also be locked.

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