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MannyC wrote:
Well, Nathaniel, the Master did not mean that we must tolerate evil. Wait till Jesus gets back. You're gonna get it! I don't think he has forgotten your twist on the "Golden Rule". :razz:


What are you talking about? Please provide quotes from my posts to back up this very serious accusation that I have somehow twisted Jesus' teaching that we love our neighbor and treat them as we would like to be treated.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
MannyC wrote:
Well, Nathaniel, the Master did not mean that we must tolerate evil. Wait till Jesus gets back. You're gonna get it! I don't think he has forgotten your twist on the "Golden Rule". :razz:


What are you talking about? Please provide quotes from my posts to back up this very serious accusation that I have somehow twisted Jesus' teaching that we love our neighbor and treat them as we would like to be treated.


Since you have taken up the identity of Nathaniel voluntarily, Agon, here are the Quotes:


147:4.1 On the evening of this same Sabbath day, at Bethany, while Jesus, the twelve, and a group of believers were assembled about the fire in Lazarus's garden, Nathaniel asked Jesus this question: “Master, although you have taught us the positive version of the old rule of life, instructing us that we should do to others as we wish them to do to us, I do not fully discern how we can always abide by such an injunction. Let me illustrate my contention by citing the example of a lustful man who thus wickedly looks upon his intended consort in sin. How can we teach that this evil-intending man should do to others as he would they should do to him?”

Jesus teaching the disciples 147:4.2 When Jesus heard Nathaniel's question, he immediately stood upon his feet and, pointing his finger at the apostle, said: “Nathaniel, Nathaniel! What manner of thinking is going on in your heart? Do you not receive my teachings as one who has been born of the spirit? Do you not hear the truth as men of wisdom and spiritual understanding? When I admonished you to do to others as you would have them do to you, I spoke to men of high ideals, not to those who would be tempted to distort my teaching into a license for the encouragement of evildoing.” *

147:4.3 When the Master had spoken, Nathaniel stood up and said: “But, Master, you should not think that I approve of such an interpretation of your teaching. I asked the question because I conjectured that many such men might thus misjudge your admonition, and I hoped you would give us further instruction regarding these matters.” And then when Nathaniel had sat down, Jesus continued speaking: “I well know, Nathaniel, that no such idea of evil is approved in your mind, but I am disappointed in that you all so often fail to put a genuinely spiritual interpretation upon my commonplace teachings, instruction which must be given you in human language and as men must speak. Let me now teach you concerning the differing levels of meaning attached to the interpretation of this rule of living, this admonition to `do to others that which you desire others to do to you':

“1. The level of the flesh. Such a purely selfish and lustful interpretation would be well exemplified by the supposition of your question.

“2. The level of the feelings. This plane is one level higher than that of the flesh and implies that sympathy and pity would enhance one's interpretation of this rule of living.

“3. The level of mind. Now come into action the reason of mind and the intelligence of experience. Good judgment dictates that such a rule of living should be interpreted in consonance with the highest idealism embodied in the nobility of profound self-respect.

“4. The level of brotherly love. Still higher is discovered the level of unselfish devotion to the welfare of one's fellows. On this higher plane of wholehearted social service growing out of the consciousness of the fatherhood of God and the consequent recognition of the brotherhood of man, there is discovered a new and far more beautiful interpretation of this basic rule of life.

“5. The moral level. And then when you attain true philosophic levels of interpretation, when you have real insight into the rightness and wrongness of things, when you perceive the eternal fitness of human relationships, you will begin to view such a problem of interpretation as you would imagine a high-minded, idealistic, wise, and impartial third person would so view and interpret such an injunction as applied to your personal problems of adjustment to your life situations.

“6. The spiritual level. And then last, but greatest of all, we attain the level of spirit insight and spiritual interpretation which impels us to recognize in this rule of life the divine command to treat all men as we conceive God would treat them. That is the universe ideal of human relationships. And this is your attitude toward all such problems when your supreme desire is ever to do the Father's will. I would, therefore, that you should do to all men that which you know I would do to them in like circumstances.”

147:4.10 Nothing Jesus had said to the apostles up to this time had ever more astonished them. They continued to discuss the Master's words long after he had retired. While Nathaniel was slow to recover from his supposition that Jesus had misunderstood the spirit of his question, the others were more than thankful that their philosophic fellow apostle had had the courage to ask such a thought-provoking question.


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"GUN CONTROL" =
Criminals are allowed to have guns;
good peace-loving citizens are not.
In practicalities, that is what it will translate to.

Therefore the QUESTION:
Does the URANTIA BOOK teach and compel
good peace-loving citizens to disarm themselves
and render themselves unto "sitting ducks"
to be helpless targets of a heavily armed mob of malcreants;
as is presently occurring in places like
Paris, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Germany, Sweden,
all of which are areas in vehement observance
and implementation of "GUN CONTROL"?

Is the Urantia Book indeed a BOOK of completely fair sense,
practical justice, and holy wisdom,
if it advocates supreme power to all forces of evil
and the rendering unto complete helplessness
of them who choose lives of peace and goodness;
as that is what precisely a large proportion of UBers
appear to be advocating?

Does the Urantia Book acknowledge
that there is such a thing as people who are so wicked
that they are poised and willing
to inflict upon you evil, violence, and cruelty
in exchange for the love that you show them and the service you give them?

Do the UBers indeed, in large part,
deny that Islam is a religion sworn to violence?
What do we do about it?
For it is apparent and evident
to all them whose senses are in function
that when it comes to Islam,
peaceful living, love, and service will be of no avail,
as it is abundantly clear that Islam has not IMPROVED one whit
since its inception centuries ago.
You MUST believe and profess as they do or suffer attacks.
Their god is the god of violence - -
it cannot possibly be the same as the Universal Father,
Who is the God of love.

How will a world ever achieve an era of LIGHT and LIFE
if evil were permitted to reign supreme and glorious unhindered?

Why do I post these things?
For love and concern for Urantia,
as, I believe, any godly person would do.


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well it's pretty ludicrous to claim that the practice of Islam hasn't changed or grown since it's inception...the fundamentalist moslem groups have found fertile ground to grow with those who are struggling to make those changes. the modernisation and westernization of islamic society is very much on the heart and minds of moslems and it's clear that the transition is not and will not be easy...dont forget western "advanced" society too is struggling with some of the same changes in the world confronted by the third world nations. it's not clear if islam needs a version of "our" Reformation or Enlightenment or both but it is clear that the changes in islam will come from within and not from any outside pressure.


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Makalu:

Do you believe Muslims, as they are still in a "formative" state, as you say, while they are still in their pro-violence and barbaric frame of mind, be permitted to live alongside peace-loving civilized and cultured folks in close proximity? Would the Urantia Book encourage that?


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171:4.1   ... conspired to have delivered into their hands at this place more than one hundred swords, received and distributed these arms to all who would accept them and wear them concealed beneath their cloaks. Simon Peter was still wearing his sword on the night of...


171:4.2   ...Early on Thursday morning before the others were awake, Jesus called Andrew and said: "Awaken your brethren! I have something to say to them." Jesus knew about the swords and which of his apostles had received and were wearing these weapons, but he never disclosed to them that he knew such things.

172:0.3   ... While the Master slept that night, the apostles watched over him by twos, and many of them were girded with swords. Early the next morning they were awakened by hundreds of pilgrims who came out from Jerusalem, even on the Sabbath day, to see Jesus and Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead....


172:2.1 On this Sunday morning, in Simon's beautiful garden, the Master called his twelve apostles around him and gave them their final instructions preparatory to entering Jerusalem. He told them that he would probably deliver many addresses and teach many lessons before returning to the Father but advised the apostles to refrain from doing any public work during this Passover sojourn in Jerusalem. He instructed them to remain near him and to “watch and pray.” Jesus knew that many of his apostles and immediate followers even then carried swords concealed on their persons, but he made no reference to this fact.


176:1.4   ... And after you have deserted the city, this disobedient people will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led captive into all nations; and so shall Jerusalem be trodden down by the gentiles.


181:2.11   ... ambassador, and no one shall take away from you the authority which I have conferred upon you, because of your slowness of comprehending the truths I have taught you. And so, Simon, once more I warn you that they who fight with the sword perish with the sword...


182:2.3   ... were stored the swords and other arms, and supplied each of them with this fighting equipment. All of them received these arms and girded themselves therewith except Nathaniel. Nathaniel, in refusing to arm himself, said: "My brethren, the Master has repeatedly told us that his kingdom is not of this world, and that his disciples should not fight with the sword to bring about its establishment. I believe this; I do not think the Master needs to have us employ the sword in his defense. We have all seen his... mighty power and know that he could defend himself against his enemies if he so desired. If he will not resist his enemies, it must be that such a course represents his attempt to fulfill his Father's will. I will pray, but I will not wield the sword... ." When Andrew heard Nathaniel's speech, he handed his sword back to Simon Zelotes. And so nine of them were armed as they separated for the night....



183:3.7   ... associates saw their Master being subjected to this indignity, they were no longer able to restrain themselves. Peter drew his sword and with the others rushed forward to smite Malchus. But before the soldiers could come to the defense of the high priest's servant, Jesus raised a forbidding hand to Peter and, speaking sternly, said: "Peter, put up your sword. They who take the sword shall perish by the sword. Do you not understand that it is the Father's will that I drink this cup? And do you not further...


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Let us be careful to distinguish between fighting/persecutiing and separaing-from/defending. Sometimes both of these require the sword/force/violence. How does one manage to get an extremely violent criminal out of society? Are we required to exercise "tolerance" toward him and just let him do what he wants?


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Raymond Benjamins wrote:
Let us be careful to distinguish between fighting/persecutiing and separaing-from/defending. Sometimes both of these require the sword/force/violence. How does one manage to get an extremely violent criminal out of society? Are we required to exercise "tolerance" toward him and just let him do what he wants?


When I use the word "tolerance" in the context of this thread, I mean this definition:

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

Tolerance does not mean passivity. It does not mean being a martyr or a coward. As I have repeatedly said on this thread. Europe and the U.S. have justice systems and national defense and military powers. We have a legal framework which we have all agreed to as the means by which our society punishes criminals. It is not for me as an individual to punish those who threaten my safety and well being - I have entrusted that to our law enforcement and the courts.

Vigilante-ism is not the answer and I am 100% confident that TUB does not condone vigilante-ism.


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Makalu wrote:
well it's pretty ludicrous to claim that the practice of Islam hasn't changed or grown since it's inception...the fundamentalist moslem groups have found fertile ground to grow with those who are struggling to make those changes. the modernisation and westernization of islamic society is very much on the heart and minds of moslems and it's clear that the transition is not and will not be easy...dont forget western "advanced" society too is struggling with some of the same changes in the world confronted by the third world nations. it's not clear if islam needs a version of "our" Reformation or Enlightenment or both but it is clear that the changes in islam will come from within and not from any outside pressure.


After the humiliating fall of the Ottoman empire, followed by WWI, the rise of fossil fuel consuming machines, world wide depression and the Saudi Oil industry beginning in 1938, there began an uneasy "friendship" between the stewards of the Holy cities of Mecca an Medina and the West.

As Raymond has correctly mentioned, friendships are only permitted among the faithful. Since the 1930s, an UNHOLY alliance between the faithful and the infidels began because the Muslins who owned the oil had to sell it to the infidels in the West. To this point, the Kings of the Arabs made most of their moneys though hosting the pilgrims of the Hadj. Since the discovery of oil beneath the sands, moneys were used, not only to provide greater accommodations for the pilgrims, but to enrich the ruling families with wicked money.

The question is, how do they clean this evil money from the West. Well, you can make this money a little less evil by subsidizing ideologies in burgeoning Islamic communities in Europe, Africa, and Asia. Use all of that money to spread the Islamic faith and gain brownie points in the process. Not to mention that there will be all the more pilgrims to spend more money in Mecca and Medina, further enriching the Royal families. But you must first hold hands with the evil West, literally. The lovely couple seen at Crawford strolling the grounds, hand in hand. What an abomination to the true believers!

This is what motivated Bin Laden to fight this evil matrimony that he recognized long before the visual in the hills of Texas. Muslims kill themselves because of this intermarriage of the faithful and the infidels. This must not be permitted by the true believers. Both bride and groom must die.

And if you are Muslim and do not believe in this honor killing, you too are to be killed. You too have dipped your pen in unholy ink and must die. It is the Will of Allah!

And what is at the heart of this unblessed union? The IDOLATRY of money, and the HYPOCRISY of this false friendship.


Last edited by MannyC on Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:21 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Raymond Benjamins wrote:
Let us be careful to distinguish between fighting/persecutiing and separaing-from/defending. Sometimes both of these require the sword/force/violence. How does one manage to get an extremely violent criminal out of society? Are we required to exercise "tolerance" toward him and just let him do what he wants?


Very true, Raymond. I knew that I could count on you to comment accurately on the quotes.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
When I use the word "tolerance" in the context of this thread, I mean this definition:

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.



Can you comment on the hypocrisy of intolerance of the intolerant? O:)


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MannyC wrote:


Can you comment on the hypocrisy of intolerance of the intolerant? O:)


I do not believe God requires us to be silent when we see unfairness towards our brothers and sisters, be they muslim, Christian, or atheist ...


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MannyC wrote:
Raymond Benjamins wrote:



Agon D. Onter wrote:
When I use the word "tolerance" in the context of this thread, I mean this definition:

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.



Can you comment on the hypocrisy of intolerance of the intolerant? O:)


So disagreement with intolerance is intolerance? To offer contrast to religious/cultural intolerance is intolerant? The tolerant should be tolerant of the intolerant...and they should also be silent about it? Such a paradox for one's response-ability - a good koan.

It would appear from some of the rhetoric here that the world must purge itself of all Muslims...find them all and ship them....somewhere else, regardless of their citizenship already established here or there or anywhere around the world. And we need Trump's "wall" built along the northern Turkey border and a naval blockade on the seas and oceans to keep all Muslims isolated and "in their place". That process should go real well, without any consequences or resistance. What could go wrong? Convert or go to the Islamic reservation...better than annihilation I suppose. Interesting proposal Raymond and Manny. So very 10th century Christian.


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Brad,

If you are really tolerant, you should ship all Muslims to your hometown to settle, and then read to them from your Urantia Book about how primitive religion is just a stepping stone to love, and love of the intolerant.


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Raymond Benjamins wrote:
Makalu:

Do you believe Muslims, as they are still in a "formative" state, as you say, while they are still in their pro-violence and barbaric frame of mind, be permitted to live alongside peace-loving civilized and cultured folks in close proximity? Would the Urantia Book encourage that?


i think the entire globe is in a formative state and the so-called civilized and cultured nations have plenty of violence and barbarism daily from their own non-muslim neighbors...it's begging the question to ask if the UB condones the partial and inbalanced growth of our times it discusses and warns about...

@manny, i'm fairly well versed in the history of the region and already mentioned the historical failure of islamists to take over the mideast...


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Makalu wrote:
i think the entire globe is in a formative state and the so-called civilized and cultured nations have plenty of violence and barbarism daily from their own non-muslim neighbors...it's begging the question to ask if the UB condones the partial and inbalanced growth of our times it discusses and warns about...

@manny, i'm fairly well versed in the history of the region and already mentioned the historical failure of islamists to take over the mideast...


First of all, it begs the question to ask why you think TUB condones anything. TUB is not a person. To say such a thing is idolatrous. The Islamist failure to take over the Middle East is because they are cannibalistic. They eat their own. Seems they also have an appetite for those would hold hands with their own. Jews and Christians want their children to marry within the faith, but have not resorted to terrorism if they do not.


nodAmanaV wrote:
If you are really tolerant, you should ship all Muslims to your hometown to settle, and then read to them from your Urantia Book about how primitive religion is just a stepping stone to love, and love of the intolerant.


I think that I had a better idea, nod. Why expose those in Brad's community to potential problems. I suggested that Brad sponsor an Arabic translation of TUB and sell it at a booth at the next hadj, around September 11, 2016. Offer Kosher hotdogs with a side of bacon, for the hungry. He can have fun throwing stones at the Devil, I know he likes that. I am even willing to subsidize the trip and cost of translation, and additionally, purchase complimentary sacrifice vouchers. The timing would be perfect. Although, since Islamists follow the Lunar calendar rather than the Gregorian, the date is not absolutely certain. Pretty luny, right?


fanofVan wrote:
So disagreement with intolerance is intolerance? To offer contrast to religious/cultural intolerance is intolerant? The tolerant should be tolerant of the intolerant...and they should also be silent about it? Such a paradox for one's response-ability - a good koan.



Any disagreement can be a strongly held belief or opinion. And if you respond as such, you are a bigot by the definition offered by Rex. I have admitted to my bigotry but you seem to continue to deny yours. The ultimate paradox is the one Jesus railed against, hypocrisy. That is why confession is good for the Soul. It cleanses one of hypocrisy.


fanofVan wrote:
It would appear from some of the rhetoric here that the world must purge itself of all Muslims...find them all and ship them....somewhere else, regardless of their citizenship already established here or there or anywhere around the world. And we need Trump's "wall" built along the northern Turkey border and a naval blockade on the seas and oceans to keep all Muslims isolated and "in their place". That process should go real well, without any consequences or resistance. What could go wrong? Convert or go to the Islamic reservation...better than annihilation I suppose. Interesting proposal Raymond and Manny. So very 10th century Christian.


The most pressing need is for the world to purge itself of idolatry and hypocrisy. The problem is that these are like boomerangs. You cannot ship them anywhere because they come right back and hit you in the head. You persist in taking pot shots at the cocoon, Brad. You would have been better off never reading part four of TUB and simply relied on "The Spirit of Truth". Those that were reluctant to include a retelling of the life of Jesus were concerned with your very reaction to it and those like you. Repent of your idolatrous use of TUB. And Zen will not help one bit. The cocoon does not lie within Zen Buddhism. It lies within 10th century Christianity and within 21st century Christians. There is a war on Christianity. The greatest risk to the cocoon is not an imperfect Christianity, it is a responsible and able Islamic warrior.


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