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Brother Raymond, your posts here are bordering on unhealthy obsession with the Islam religion. As this is a Urantia Book discussion forum, I am finding your posts rather tiresome. Variety is restful; monotony is what wears and exhausts. You clearly have a bias against Islam and you are desperately trying to gain acceptance of your views here. As with most things that are discussed by a diverse group of people, some will agree with some of the things you have shared, and some disagree.

Since it seems you are not getting the acceptance you seek regarding Islam, perhaps you should just move on to another topic.

188:5:2 Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil.


Last edited by Agon D. Onter on Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:42 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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I don't think Ray is seeking acceptance Agon D. Onter, I think he's working to do what he can to see to it that an obsession with tolerance doesn't lead to any more needless deaths. Not in sidewalk cafes, not off the side of boats mid-ocean, not on the top floor of an American skyscraper. I don't think he's tolerant of any more dying because of misplaced bias towards an out-of-control religion, and that's pretty healthy.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
I don't think Ray is seeking acceptance Agon D. Onter, I think he's working to do what he can to see to it that an obsession with tolerance doesn't lead to any more needless deaths. Not in sidewalk cafes, not off the side of boats mid-ocean, not on the top floor of an American skyscraper. I don't think he's tolerant of any more dying because of misplaced bias towards an out-of-control religion, and that's pretty healthy.


Nod, do you truly believe that if everyone refuses to accept Islam as a legitimate religion that the needless deaths you refer to will end? You realize that muslims are killing muslims; Christians are killing Christians; and terrorism / murder occurs among all religions and secular sects?

A much more effective way to reduce the number of needless violent deaths would be to encourage our legislators to support reasonable gun control in the U.S. but that is not a topic for this forum.


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Greetings Raymond,

You ask:
Raymond Benjamins wrote:
Please allow me a follow-up question: As "improvement" seems to be one of the key words and concepts, can one say that since its inception during the 7th Century AD, the religion of Islam IMPROVED any as it delves into the 21st Century, from the perspective of love, benevolence, and civility?


Another interesting question. I can't answer it unless you define how you think religion becomes "improved". Do you mean up-stepped by revelation? If so, I think that question has been answered. If you mean evolution? Possibly. I know Mohammed condoned polygamy (up to 4 wives). He even rewrote the rules to allow himself to take an additional wife; it's actually in the Qu'ran. In modern times, many scholars are claiming that the polygamy verse in the Qu'ran is no longer valid. Instead of being ubiquitous as it was at one time, now it's practiced by only about 3% of Muslims. That could be considered evolution, I think.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Ray asks:

Has Islam IMPROVED any as it delves into the 21st Century, from the perspective of love, benevolence, and civility?

I think the answer is demonstrated in the actions of many hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing the lands of Islam to the lands of its enemies.

The next question is, where will we flee?


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I have another question. What would happen to you in Raqqa if you spoke with an Islamist about a Urantia Book you were carrying under your arm?


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Raymond Benjamins wrote:
Thank you, gentlemen, for your thoughtful replies and citations.

Please allow me a follow-up question: As "improvement" seems to be one of the key words and concepts, can one say that since its inception during the 7th Century AD, the religion of Islam IMPROVED any as it delves into the 21st Century, from the perspective of love, benevolence, and civility?


Greetings Raymond - I wonder why it matters? I mean, the same question might be asked about every evolutionary religion, eh? We're not really here to examine or measure evolutionary religions are we? The Urantia Papers are about personal religious experience and no evolutionary religion passes muster as a superior religion compared to that personal faith experience of the individual's relationship with the Spirits of Father, Mother, and Son.

As has been pointed out, repeatedly, every single evolutionary religion has spawned wickedness, evil, sin, murder, and mayhem - sometimes as approved and encouraged by the "official" leadership but far more often by radicalized individuals that do not represent the actual religious authorities of any such faith/belief system. Considering Christianity some 1900 years after its beginnings - religious fanatics were raping, hanging, burning, and pillaging African Americans wearing pointy hats and planting burning crosses to justify their murder and mayhem of innocent victims.

Your presentations infer superior and inferior evolutionary religions while the UB says all are inferior and that their only redeeming value is to the extent that they illuminate truth and serve the individual religionists personal religious experience. Otherwise.....no value. All religions have serious flaws and shortcomings....all of them. And very few have any singular form of any central authority - certainly not Judaism, Christianity, or Islam - all of which have many multiples of creeds and dogmas and leaders and adherents....and each believer from each faith mostly self determines those small radicalized branches - or so history reveals since the times of the crusades.

Since most of us have Christian backgrounds and great personal experience within that faith, perhaps you might wish to begin a topic about how Christianity might evolve further from its horrific past to be a better and more deserving cocoon for the Jesusonian Gospel which will come to or already is emerging?

I wonder if it wouldn't be more profitable to consider what we are for and act in support of rather than focusing so much on what we are against or fear? The Master taught that the personal religious experience of finding God and trying to be more and more like God is the principal task for each of us and the Gospel is an embrace of the positive force of love on the individual and the group. How does your opposition to Islam support such a priority? When did the Master ever once articulate his opposition to any individual's faith or religion, no matter how inferior it might be, rather than attempt to first discover that which was held in common between them and then adding more truth and illumination by more love of each individual he ever met? Jesus conquered none by force but won a universe by love, kindness, mercy, and wisdom.

Did Jesus suffer at the hands of extremists and radicals and evil power mongers? Did his apostles and disciples? Where did he teach them to fear or to vanquish such evil? Is the Master our example or Christianity? I do not wish to provoke you but I truly cannot understand what Islam or terrorism (of any flavor) has to do with the Urantia Papers. Perhaps I am too dense. In any case I appreciate the opportunity to discuss and learn from others.

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54:3:1 The free will of evolving man or exquisite angel is not a mere philosophic concept, a symbolic ideal. Man's ability to choose good or evil is a universe reality.

140:8:7 The futility of evil: A wrong is not righted by vengeance. Do not make the mistake of fighting evil with its own weapons. "I say to you, be not overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good."


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8:2.2 (764.5) While the level of intelligence has contributed considerably to the rate of cultural progress, society is essentially designed to lessen the risk element in the individual’s mode of living, and it has progressed just as fast as it has succeeded in lessening pain and increasing the pleasure element in life. Thus does the whole social body push on slowly toward the goal of destiny — extinction or survival — depending on whether that goal is self-maintenance or self-gratification. Self-maintenance originates society, while excessive self-gratification destroys civilization.


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If there's an element of self-gratification in being tolerant, what is it?


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nodAmanaV wrote:
If there's an element of self-gratification in being tolerant, what is it?


You can answer that question for yourself. Of the things you tolerate, what element of self-gratification do YOU experience? Use your own experience to find the answer.


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"excessive self-gratification destroys civilization"


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fanofVan wrote:
Greetings Raymond - I wonder why it matters? I mean, the same question might be asked about every evolutionary religion, eh? We're not really here to examine or measure evolutionary religions are we? The Urantia Papers are about personal religious experience and no evolutionary religion passes muster as a superior religion compared to that personal faith experience of the individual's relationship with the Spirits of Father, Mother, and Son.


Brad, are you trying to shut down discussion? The Urantia Papers are about much more than personal religious experience. It is a revelation about history, science, civilization, the Central Universe, Paradise and even life on another planet. Why are you dictating what we are here to examine?


fanofVan wrote:
As has been pointed out, repeatedly, every single evolutionary religion has spawned wickedness, evil, sin, murder, and mayhem - sometimes as approved and encouraged by the "official" leadership but far more often by radicalized individuals that do not represent the actual religious authorities of any such faith/belief system. Considering Christianity some 1900 years after its beginnings - religious fanatics were raping, hanging, burning, and pillaging African Americans wearing pointy hats and planting burning crosses to justify their murder and mayhem of innocent victims.


Why are you so self loathing that you wish to point out pointy hats but ignore a real and present danger that involves a world religion? Count the pointy hats and then count the number of Muslins in the world that, by creedal mandates, must kill the Infidels. I'll wait while you gather those figures.


fanofVan wrote:
Your presentations infer superior and inferior evolutionary religions while the UB says all are inferior and that their only redeeming value is to the extent that they illuminate truth and serve the individual religionists personal religious experience. Otherwise.....no value. All religions have serious flaws and shortcomings....all of them. And very few have any singular form of any central authority - certainly not Judaism, Christianity, or Islam - all of which have many multiples of creeds and dogmas and leaders and adherents....and each believer from each faith mostly self determines those small radicalized branches - or so history reveals since the times of the crusades.


Brad , I know that you are a great supporter of the dissemination of the Urantia Book. Have you considered sponsoring of an Arabic translation of TUB and going to Saudi Arabis and setting up a booth in Mecca during the Hadj? Perhaps you could also sell Kosher hot dogs with a side of bacon. I think that would be a great outreach on your part and add tremendously to your personal religious experience.


fanofVan wrote:
Since most of us have Christian backgrounds and great personal experience within that faith, perhaps you might wish to begin a topic about how Christianity might evolve further from its horrific past to be a better and more deserving cocoon for the Jesusonian Gospel which will come to or already is emerging?


Are you dictating to Ray again, Brad, or are you suggesting? As the most self loathing one of us here may I suggest that you begin this topic about Christianity. Be sure to include plenty of the horrific past. We would not want to put the past behind us just yet. Not when it serves us so well as an instrument of self flagellation. People love horror movies so much. I guess we love to be horrified.



fanofVan wrote:
I wonder if it wouldn't be more profitable to consider what we are for and act in support of rather than focusing so much on what we are against or fear? The Master taught that the personal religious experience of finding God and trying to be more and more like God is the principal task for each of us and the Gospel is an embrace of the positive force of love on the individual and the group. How does your opposition to Islam support such a priority? When did the Master ever once articulate his opposition to any individual's faith or religion, no matter how inferior it might be, rather than attempt to first discover that which was held in common between them and then adding more truth and illumination by more love of each individual he ever met? Jesus conquered none by force but won a universe by love, kindness, mercy, and wisdom.


I thought profit is a dirty word for you, Brad. We are for good and not evil. We are not against evil, we simply do not condone it. We do not fear evil, we do not condone it. God does not recognize evil as a reality because He did not create it. There is, however, the real potential for evil. Did the Master ever articulate his opposition to evil doers? "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Did the Master first try to discover that which was held in common between them? I think that Jesus did do that with Satan because he is Satan's Father. But elsewhere, and in another time, you where in agreement for calling for the annihilation of the rebels. Are you calling for the annihilation of the Islamists? Jesus did indeed win a universe by love, kindness, mercy, and wisdom. Did that win over Lucifer and the rebels? If not, then Michael has lost them to iniquity. What is your verdict?


fanofVan wrote:
Did Jesus suffer at the hands of extremists and radicals and evil power mongers? Did his apostles and disciples? Where did he teach them to fear or to vanquish such evil? Is the Master our example or Christianity? I do not wish to provoke you but I truly cannot understand what Islam or terrorism (of any flavor) has to do with the Urantia Papers. Perhaps I am too dense. In any case I appreciate the opportunity to discuss and learn from others.


But you do wish to provoke, Brad. Your entire post is provocative. And do you really wish to discuss or do you wish to dictate the discussion? Smacks of totalitarianism to me. I do not think you are too dense, just dense enough. I hear you speaking form both sides of your mouth. You appreciate and yet you cannot understand. You seem to have a very narrow view of all that TUB can reveal to many different peoples. You are expressing self-centeredness if you are telling us that TUB personal just about personal religious experience. It is so much more. I use your words, Bradley, because they are so telling.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
"excessive self-gratification destroys civilization"


So if I follow your logic, tolerance leads to self-gratification which then leads to the destruction of civilization. Therefore, we need to be intolerant.

Something isn't right, there. Let's see if TUB can help with this.

121:7:2. The teachings and practice of Jesus regrading tolerance and kindness ran counter to the long-standing attitude of the Jews toward other people's whom they considered heathen ...

160:1:9 ... You simply must have tact and tolerance.

157:5:18. ... Tact is the fulcrum of social leverage and tolerance is the earmark of a great soul.


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Well, Nathaniel, the Master did not mean that we must tolerate evil. Wait till Jesus gets back. You're gonna get it! I don't think he has forgotten your twist on the "Golden Rule". :razz:


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