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nodAmanaV wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
There is only one way off this rock, you know. We all will die. What does it matter to a God-knowing mortal if all earthly things should fall?

You must not have children.


I do. I accept that even they will die one day and I will know them in the Mansion worlds. I cannot shield my children from all harm in the world; I can only love them and teach them to love others, treating everyone as they would like to be treated (ie., not kill people - even Muslims! :shock: )

Nod - do you have children? Do you ever take them places in your vehicle? Do you realize that they are statistically much more likely to die while in a vehicle with you than by the hand of a terrorist? Yet you allow them to get into a vehicle?

I GUESS YOU DO NOT LOVE YOUR CHILDREN!


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YSMAEL: Your complete denial of those things which the general public acknowledges and are openly well aware of staggers me.

Why cannot you boldly address issues rather than resort to extremely vicious and senseless personal attacks against me?

Are you Muslim? Your user-name is Muslim: Ishmael was the progenitor of the Arabs.

If you are a Muslim, then that fully explains EVERYTHING that you have thus far posted in this thread.

Have you ever pondered the essence and purpose of the Urantia Book?



Ahhh. @#$%&#&**$($(%)$)#)#)$)$)#)_#. Nevermind. It’s worthless to respond.


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Greetings YSMAEL,

YSMAEL wrote:
Yes you did miss something, Rex. Read Ray's posts.


I have read Raymond's posts and I don't see what you see. I see legitimate questions, philosophical questions that require more than an emotional gut reaction.

Raymond asks if it is loving to allow brutality? This is an honest question and worthy of an answer.

Jesus did not allow brutality. Recall how he stepped in when a man was brutally beating his wife in public (133:2:1). Recall how he stepped in when a small lad was being bullied (133:1:1). Recall how he stepped in when the woman was about to be stoned for adultery (162:3:5). Imagine what he would do today if he witnessed a scores of young girls being round up to be raped by marauding extremists. Would he hide in the bushes? I don't think so. I don't think he'd drop a bomb on them either, but he'd find some way to intervene with great force of personality despite the risk to himself.

Raymond asks if the Urantia Papers "-sanction and recommend complete passivity".

No, of course they do not sanction passivity. Jesus DID NOT teach passivity toward wrongdoing (see quote below). His idea about turning the other cheek means to do actively lead the wrongdoer away from evil, vigorously, actively and courageously.

Jesus' teaching to trust in the overcare of the heavenly Father was not a blind and passive fatalism. 140:8:2

He taught them not to resist evil, not to combat injustice or injury, but he did not teach passive tolerance of wrongdoing. 140:8:4

Jesus put the spirit of positive action into the passive doctrines of the Jewish religion. 159:5:8

He even opposed negative or purely passive nonresistance. Said he: "When an enemy smites you on one cheek, do not stand there dumb and passive but in positive attitude turn the other; that is, do the best thing possible actively to lead your brother in error away from the evil paths into the better ways of righteous living." Jesus required his followers to react positively and aggressively to every life situation. The turning of the other cheek, or whatever act that may typify, demands initiative, necessitates vigorous, active, and courageous expression of the believer's personality. 159:5:9

Jesus abhorred the idea either of retaliation or of becoming just a passive sufferer or victim of injustice. 159:5:11


It's common sense,
Rexford


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
nodAmanaV wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
There is only one way off this rock, you know. We all will die. What does it matter to a God-knowing mortal if all earthly things should fall?

You must not have children.


I do. I accept that even they will die one day and I will know them in the Mansion worlds. I cannot shield my children from all harm in the world; I can only love them and teach them to love others, treating everyone as they would like to be treated (ie., not kill people - even Muslims! :shock: )

Nod - do you have children? Do you ever take them places in your vehicle? Do you realize that they are statistically much more likely to die while in a vehicle with you than by the hand of a terrorist? Yet you allow them to get into a vehicle?

I GUESS YOU DO NOT LOVE YOUR CHILDREN!

I'm not going to go down that dirt road again with you Agon D. Onter, I thought in brotherhood we could agree? I'm simply a bit confused why anyone, especially a student of the Urantia Book, would think it's okay to leave this rock while allowing all things to fall? I presume you meant all things on earth right? I think along these lines because what you're referring to, I believe, is that we don't have the power to do anything about it. We're just stuck with a lack of power to use force to counter criminals.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
I GUESS YOU DO NOT LOVE YOUR CHILDREN!

I'm not going to go down that dirt road again with you Agon D. Onter, I thought in brotherhood we could agree? I'm simply a bit confused why anyone, especially a student of the Urantia Book, would think it's okay to leave this rock while allowing all things to fall? I presume you meant all things on earth right? I think along these lines because what you're referring to, I believe, is that we don't have the power to do anything about it. We're just stuck with a lack of power to use force to counter criminals.


No. Our society has a system of justice and defense. I support both of them with my tax dollars and my votes, as I posted upthread. Please read all my posts and do not put words in my mouth.


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Rexford wrote:
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I have read Raymond's posts and I don't see what you see. I see legitimate questions, philosophical questions that require more than an emotional gut reaction.

Perhaps you did not read our exchanges. He wants us all to believe as he believes, that all Muslims are terrorists. And he is also telling us UB readers that we condone the attacks by the terrorists, that we even wanted them to happen. He wants us all to hate all Muslims as he hates them all.


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There are two schools of thought involved in this discussion:

One says:
-Make love, not war.
-It's all good! God will succeed.
-Why does it matter. Let in the Trojan Horse and let's party.
-We're all going to the mansions anyway, why worry?

The other:
-Get out of bed, prepare a defense.
-It won't be good if we fail.
-It matters for our children not to be naive.
-Shame will be upon us if we ignore the obvious, it's in our hands.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
There are two schools of thought involved in this discussion:

One says:
-Make love, not war.
-It's all good! God will succeed.
-Why does it matter. Let in the Trojan Horse and let's party.
-We're all going to the mansions anyway, why worry?

The other:
-Get out of bed, prepare a defense.
-It won't be good if we fail.
-It matters for our children not to be naive.
-Shame will be upon us if we ignore the obvious, it's in our hands.


Just because you see it as so black and white, doesn't mean the rest of us do. I, for one, do not. Love, tempered with justice; faith, paired with right action (including national defense) is my philosophy.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
nodAmanaV wrote:
There are two schools of thought involved in this discussion:

One says:
-Make love, not war.
-It's all good! God will succeed.
-Why does it matter. Let in the Trojan Horse and let's party.
-We're all going to the mansions anyway, why worry?

The other:
-Get out of bed, prepare a defense.
-It won't be good if we fail.
-It matters for our children not to be naive.
-Shame will be upon us if we ignore the obvious, it's in our hands.


Just because you see it as so black and white, doesn't mean the rest of us do. I, for one, do not. Love, tempered with justice; faith, paired with right action (including national defense) is my philosophy.

Yes, I see black and I see white. Criminals like it were it's gray, like a fog to give them cover for their nefarious deeds. Ever mix oil and water? Useless. Can't drink it. Can't lube your engine with it.


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YSMAEL:

Read my lips:
I do not hate Muslims.
I do hate their deliberate choices to do what they know to be evil.
I pray for the conversion of Muslims.
Those that do convert generally become great citizens.

** I was right about you, wasn't I.
You have the habit of not speaking what is right and just.


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Greetings YSMAEL,

In regards to this:
YSMAEL wrote:
Perhaps you did not read our exchanges. He wants us all to believe as he believes, that all Muslims are terrorists. And he is also telling us UB readers that we condone the attacks by the terrorists, that we even wanted them to happen. He wants us all to hate all Muslims as he hates them all.


I can't find the place where Raymond wrote that he believes all Muslims are terrorists, that all Muslims condone terrorists and that he wants everyone to hate all Muslims. Where did you read that? Are you sure you didn't read something that wasn't really there, but actually in your own mind, there because of fear that he might have meant that or others might be thinking that?

I don't think anyone participating on this forum has that level of hate. We would all suffocate such an atrocity; it wouldn't last long. I don't read hate in Raymond's posts, I read frustration and discontent. Why don't you shine your light and help relieve his frustration? Help him understand what a moderate Muslim really thinks? We all need to know. (Within forum guidelines of course).

I think all non-violent Muslims should speak up loudly and courageously against violence. Let your lights shine. There are enough of you to blind the evil ones. I read an op-ed in the paper the other day by a Muslim that was absolutely stunning in its truth and beauty. I only wish it was on the front page in bold print. I wish more would speak up, many more. I'm sure it would help the entire world if they did. It would be an act of love.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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I must agree with Rexford here and he has backed up his assertions well. But if I may, allow me to inject an opinion that has a psychological twist.

I see this Islamic problem as a clash of civilizations. Islam does not separate its society and its religion. It is all one. Of course, there are secularists in all religions. I see the problem as a societal inferiority complex. Islam has not been at the top of their game for 1000 years. They are playing catch up and this plays upon the human psyche when one identifies so completely with a religious society.

Just the other day, at a soccer match in Istanbul, a moment of silence was offered to the innocent victims of the Paris attacks. There was no silence, but the entire stadium, or so it seemed, was yelling, "Allah Akbar!".

There are soccer hooligans that riot when they lose a game and are liquored up and this can happen anywhere with any society. On college campuses we see this after a football game were things get out of hand.

Radicalism will take root in these religious societies because fanaticism is multiplied exponentially. Globalism adds to this because the inferiority complex is "in your face" everyday with technology and communication that reminds the retarded culture that they have not contributed visibly, and have not been given credit for what they have accomplished. For example, NASA has been on a campaign to try and make muslims 'feel good'. It is a self esteem problem.

This envy and rage is the result as persons on the fringe of this religious society feel disenfranchised and psychologically beaten down. This usually involves the young males, full of testosterone and a competitive fight. Then it becomes, "us against them". The moderate Moslems either secretly cheer the radicals on, or are afraid to root for the opposing team. And worst of all, there is intramural fighting and civil wars between Islamic sects. Sectarianism is a big problem in many religions, including Christianity.

I will treat a brother as an individual and that is the way it should be. But when the stakes are high and the game is deadly and the rules do not apply, there is war and rumors of war.

Well, I am sure that I have stepped in it now, but who hasn't on this thread. Lets have a communal roll in the mud. O:)


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Yes, I see black and I see white. Criminals like it were it's gray, like a fog to give them cover for their nefarious deeds. Ever mix oil and water? Useless. Can't drink it. Can't lube your engine with it.


Jesus was judged a criminal even though he was not given the dignity of a fair trial. The same is happening with the broad classification of "Muslims" today. Individual muslims may be criminals, and we have a justice system for dealing with their crimes.

UBers should not be among the angry mobs wielding torches and pitchforks, shouting "Kill all the Muslims/ Jews/ Christians/ people with red hair/ [name your supposed 'evildoer' of choice here]!" Let those who cry for vengeance do so out of their own ignorance. We know better.


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MannyC wrote:
I must agree with Rexford here and he has backed up his assertions well. But if I may, allow me to inject an opinion that has a psychological twist.

I see this Islamic problem as a clash of civilizations. Islam does not separate its society and its religion. It is all one. Of course, there are secularists in all religions. I see the problem as a societal inferiority complex. Islam has not been at the top of their game for 1000 years. They are playing catch up and this plays upon the human psyche when one identifies so completely with a religious society.

Just the other day, at a soccer match in Istanbul, a moment of silence was offered to the innocent victims of the Paris attacks. There was no silence, but the entire stadium, or so it seemed, was yelling, "Allah Akbar!".

There are soccer hooligans that riot when they lose a game and are liquored up and this can happen anywhere with any society. On college campuses we see this after a football game were things get out of hand.

Radicalism will take root in these religious societies because fanaticism is multiplied exponentially. Globalism adds to this because the inferiority complex is "in your face" everyday with technology and communication that reminds the retarded culture that they have not contributed visibly, and have not been given credit for what they have accomplished. For example, NASA has been on a campaign to try and make muslims 'feel good'. It is a self esteem problem.

This envy and rage is the result as persons on the fringe of this religious society feel disenfranchised and psychologically beaten down. This usually involves the young males, full of testosterone and a competitive fight. Then it becomes, "us against them". The moderate Moslems either secretly cheer the radicals on, or are afraid to root for the opposing team. And worst of all, there is intramural fighting and civil wars between Islamic sects. Sectarianism is a big problem in many religions, including Christianity.

I will treat a brother as an individual and that is the way it should be. But when the stakes are high and the game is deadly and the rules do not apply, there is war and rumors of war.

Well, I am sure that I have stepped in it now, but who hasn't on this thread. Lets have a communal roll in the mud. O:)

That might be the most insightful thing I've seen on this thread yet Louis.


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Food for thought (from today's Christian Science Monitor, considered among the most accurate international news sources): http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2 ... -than-ever

After Paris Attacks Many Muslims Say They Feel More French Than Ever

Even as some confront a backlash, Muslims are noting a sense of belonging – feeling part of a society that is mourning collectively and standing behind the French government in bringing attackers to justice.

Saint-Denis, France — In the wake of the terrorist attack in Paris, Muslims across the globe have braced for the backlash: the suspicious looks at bearded men and veiled women, the public pressures and policies that at times seem to put an entire faith on trial.

But in France, where the climate of fear is intense and the Muslim minority has long felt singled out and separate, something different is happening. Muslims here say they feel more French than ever, part of a society in collective mourning and firmly behind the French government to do what it takes to bring to justice the perpetrators of attacks that took 130 lives – Muslims among them.


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