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consider that the people ISIS is killing and enslaving in their caliphate are muslims...the people who are fighting ISIS on the ground are muslims...the groups who ISIS considers their primary opponents are muslims. these fundamentalist moslem groups seeking power in the mideast always have to label other muslims "infidels" in order to accomplish their goals and they always seem to fail because of that failure to gain popular support...muslims are, at least, tolerant of other muslims.

islamic terrorism will end when it is discredited within islamic society...western military action in an islamic nation just seems to give the jihadi's what they want (kafirs to kill on their own turf and emotional "crusader" recruitment material) and just exacerbates the problem. you can invade and wage your own terror but they know that sooner or later you will tire and leave a war you can't win nor lose.

ISIS also seeks a return to 7th century islam which in the long run won't provide the answers for a 21st century society. imo this situation calls for patience and acting in only very limited capacities...but working to plant the seeds of change when and where we can...steadfast in the knowledge that the reason Jesus advocated overcoming evil by the power of good is because it works! :-)


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Makalu wrote:
ISIS also seeks a return to 7th century islam which in the long run won't provide the answers for a 21st century society. imo this situation calls for patience and acting in only very limited capacities...but working to plant the seeds of change when and where we can...steadfast in the knowledge that the reason Jesus advocated overcoming evil by the power of good is because it works!


Michael stood aloof from the Lucifer rebellion for over 200,000 years while the war in heaven raged on. The power of good does indeed win out. But who has 200,000 years? Should we sit by and condone the evil in our midst? The urge for a Caliphate has no patience. Jesus was not condoning of evil. He had no patience with the Temple vipers. Planting seeds are of no value if the Earth is scorched.


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nobody is saying we should condone evil...i'm just saying we should consider the strengths and weaknesses of both our enemies and of our options to combat them while working to promote an environment in the islamic world conducive to positive growth. if you think that some sort of unabated military action will rid the world of ISIS or groups like it then al qaeda has a cave in afghanistan to sell you :wink:

if i think what i think will prove to be correct the current and coming administrations of the western nations will more than likely make sure it's never given a chance :lol:


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Heavy handed editing and deleting of posts has been enforced on this discussion. The choices were:
1. Delete certain statements… and warn the offender, or
2. Delete the entire thread

We don't enjoy editing or deleting members' posts. Rather than deleting the entire thread perhaps this edited version will serve as a reminder that discussion must relate to teachings of TUB and must not be political in nature.
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What if politics relates to the UB and certain parts of the UB relates to politics?


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Will Havona receive Muslims just the way they are?
Will Havona receive UBers who defend Muslims?
If you see a Muslim attack, rape, and brutalize your loved one, would you simply just let it be, as UBers appear to advise?
Does the Urantia Book forbid self-defense?
Does the Urantia Book forbid the protection of our loved ones?
Does the Urantia Book agree with those things which are written in the Quran?

FYI: This is some of what the Quran teaches: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran ... olence.htm

Do the UBers like it?
Does the UB like it?
Does Havona like it?
Will this teaching be part of Havona?


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Admin,

This moment in history is akin to 911 and the beginning of WW2. How can we separate the discussion of the UB from the current events of this epochal moment? This thread has to do with war, not politics. Naturally, our posts and responses will be charged with emotion. We are being attacked by people who hide behind religion. A religion the UB comments on and puts in perspective historically.

Granted, the tone of some of the member's comments need to be reeled in (mine included). I enjoy this forum because I believe it's a place to make the UB relevant in the real world. I hope the owners of this website will not continue to limit it by cookie-cutting these honest discussions for elementary consumption only.

Regards, with all due respect.


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175:1.12 “Woe upon you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You would shut the doors of the kingdom of heaven against sincere men because they happen to be unlearned in the ways of your teaching. You refuse to enter the kingdom and at the same time do everything within your power to prevent all others from entering. You stand with your backs to the doors of salvation and fight with all who would enter therein.
175:1.13 “Woe upon you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites that you are! for you do indeed encompass land and sea to make one proselyte, and when you have succeeded, you are not content until you have made him twofold worse than he was as a child of the heathen.
175:1.14 “Woe upon you, chief priests and rulers who lay hold of the property of the poor and demand heavy dues of those who would serve God as they think Moses ordained! You who refuse to show mercy, can you hope for mercy in the worlds to come?
175:1.15 “Woe upon you, false teachers, blind guides! What can be expected of a nation when the blind lead the blind? They both shall stumble into the pit of destruction.
175:1.16 “Woe upon you who dissimulate when you take an oath! You are tricksters since you teach that a man may swear by the temple and break his oath, but that whoso swears by the gold in the temple must remain bound. You are all fools and blind. You are not even consistent in your dishonesty, for which is the greater, the gold or the temple which has supposedly sanctified the gold? You also teach that, if a man swears by the altar, it is nothing; but that, if one swears by the gift that is upon the altar, then shall he be held as a debtor. Again are you blind to the truth, for which is the greater, the gift or the altar which sanctifies the gift? How can you justify such hypocrisy and dishonesty in the sight of the God of heaven?
175:1.17 “Woe upon you, scribes and Pharisees and all other hypocrites who make sure that they tithe mint, anise, and cumin and at the same time disregard the weightier matters of the law — faith, mercy, and judgment! Within reason, the one you ought to have done but not to have left the other undone. You are truly blind guides and dumb teachers; you strain out the gnat and swallow the camel.
175:1.18 “Woe upon you, scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites! for you are scrupulous to cleanse the outside of the cup and the platter, but within there remains the filth of extortion, excesses, and deception. You are spiritually blind. Do you not recognize how much better it would be first to cleanse the inside of the cup, and then that which spills over would of itself cleanse the outside? You wicked reprobates! you make the outward performances of your religion to conform with the letter of your interpretation of Moses' law while your souls are steeped in iniquity and filled with murder.
175:1.19 “Woe upon all of you who reject truth and spurn mercy! Many of you are like whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful but within are full of dead men's bones and all sorts of uncleanness. Even so do you who knowingly reject the counsel of God appear outwardly to men as holy and righteous, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and iniquity.
175:1.20 “Woe upon you, false guides of a nation! Over yonder have you built a monument to the martyred prophets of old, while you plot to destroy him of whom they spoke. You garnish the tombs of the righteous and flatter yourselves that, had you lived in the days of your fathers, you would not have killed the prophets; and then in the face of such self-righteous thinking you make ready to slay him of whom the prophets spoke, the Son of Man. Inasmuch as you do these things, are you witness to yourselves that you are the wicked sons of them who slew the prophets. Go on, then, and fill up the cup of your condemnation to the full!
175:1.21 “Woe upon you, children of evil! John did truly call you the offspring of vipers, and I ask how can you escape the judgment that John pronounced upon you?


Would anyone on this forum consider the words of Jesus here to be a mindless, bigoted, anti-semitic rant?

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Did Jesus use language in these quotes that violate the forum rules?


158:8.1 Entering Capernaum at twilight, they went by unfrequented thoroughfares directly to the home of Simon Peter for their evening meal. While David Zebedee made ready to take them across the lake, they lingered at Simon's house, and Jesus, looking up at Peter and the other apostles, asked: “As you walked along together this afternoon, what was it that you talked about so earnestly among yourselves?” The apostles held their peace because many of them had continued the discussion begun at Mount Hermon as to what positions they were to have in the coming kingdom; who should be the greatest, and so on. Jesus, knowing what it was that occupied their thoughts that day, beckoned to one of Peter's little ones and, setting the child down among them, said: “Verily, verily, I say to you, except you turn about and become more like this child, you will make little progress in the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever shall humble himself and become as this little one, the same shall become greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso receives such a little one receives me. And they who receive me receive also Him who sent me. If you would be first in the kingdom, seek to minister these good truths to your brethren in the flesh. But whosoever causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hanged about his neck and he were cast into the sea. If the things you do with your hands, or the things you see with your eyes give offense the progress of the kingdom, sacrifice these cherished idols, for it is better to enter the kingdom minus many of the beloved things of life rather than to cling to these idols and find yourself shut out of the kingdom. But most of all, see that you despise not one of these little ones, for their angels do always behold the faces of the heavenly hosts.”


Here it seems to me that Jesus is making an outright threat to those that would teach children hate and instruct them on how to harm others with weapons and words. Which individuals or group of individuals would this direct threat apply to in our present time?

Are threats allowed by the forum rules?


Last edited by MannyC on Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:19 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Ray wrote:
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I have posted what I did for one simple reason: I do not like to see the innocent suffering afflictions at the hands of the brutal. Possessing this sentiment, I believe I am exercising genuine charity. And I am here to call you all to this same charity. Pointing out the danger of evil is not "fear-mongering" but and act of true love. For we tend to warn those whom we love. And I am telling you the danger is Islam and those who defend, permit, and welcome Islam. The UBers, by and large, believe that the answer is to be passive and allow the Muslims to indulge in all the carnage and brutalities they like, and just to let things be, and in time, the situation would all slowly evaporate. The Urantia Book, however, points out some things about Islam which are very unflattering. I therefore counsel one and all to beseech for divine help; for I believe in a God Who answers prayers.


My problem with your post is your generalization that all Muslims are bad people and your generalization that all Ubers are condoners of bad Muslims. You want us to hate all Muslims. The bottom line of UB teachings is love. Love for God and fellow beings.


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Will Havona receive Muslims just the way they are?


Why not? True religion is personal and individual. It does not matter what religious organization one belong to. Salvation is individual.

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Will Havona receive UBers who defend Muslims?


Yes, of course especially if the Muslims they are defending are victims.

Quote:
If you see a Muslim attack, rape, and brutalize your loved one, would you simply just let it be, as UBers appear to advise?


If you see a Christian attack, rape, and brutalize your loved ones, would you say he did it as a Christian?

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Does the Urantia Book forbid self-defense?


I don’t think so.

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Does the Urantia Book forbid the protection of our loved ones?


I don’t think so.


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MannyC: Thanks for nailing it.

nodAmanaV: Thanks for making good sense.

YSMAEL: Does the Universal Father ESTEEM Muslims just as they are?
Does the Universal Father love every intelligent being EQUALLY?
Are Michael of Mebadon and Caligastia EQUALLY loved, esteemed, holy and righteous in the eyes of the Universal Father?
Is that person a "Muslim" who does not regard and obey the Quran?
Are Christians more or equally likely to brutalize others than Muslims?


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YSMAEL: Does the Universal Father ESTEEM Muslims just as they are?

You are still predicating your question on your assumption that all Muslims are bad.
Quote:
Does the Universal Father love every intelligent being EQUALLY?

Yes. God loves all equally. He is no respecter of persons
Quote:
Are Michael of Nebadon and Caligastia EQUALLY loved, esteemed, holy and righteous in the eyes of the Universal Father?

Yes. God’s love is equal among His children. He loves the sinner equally as the non-sinner. He loves the sinner but hates the sin. Salvation depends on everyone’s free will to choose salvation.
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Is that person a "Muslim" who does not regard and obey the Quran?

Peaceful and tolerant Muslims don’t do what the extremists do. But they all regard themselves as Muslims. They all base their beliefs in the Quran.
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Are Christians more or equally likely to brutalize others than Muslims?

Both have violent members. Both have peaceful and tolerant members. Bottomline: It’s individual choice.


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Ray,

The Universal Father loves all intelligent beings infinitely. However, these same beings must accept this grace for eternal life. Some do so better than others, particularly in the time-space realms. The nature and character of the free-will being is tied directly to how much of Father's grace they have received through their own choices. At a certain point for the good of the whole, mechanisms tempered in mercy activate to insure that the dying branches do not take out the entire organism.

Just as there are different schools of thought in Christianity, so too are there in Islam. The Old Testament has many unspeakable acts of horror perpetrated on whole peoples, but most modern day Christians do not use these examples as license to perform the same acts.

Asking whether someone who "does not obey" the Quaran is a Muslim is the same as asking whether someone "does not obey" the Bible is not a Christian. It's a false choice for the reasons I just mentioned.

Christians have a long history of engaging in acts of barbarity and brutality. Yet, for the most part, they've come a long way. Islam very well could see the same fate. It's up to the individual religionist to exalt the truth in their religion and shed the baggage of tradition wherever it does not get them closer to God. Thus generalizations about all Muslims and all Christians are categorically flawed.


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Greetings Raymond,

I know you asked these questions of YSMAEL, but if you don't mind, I'd like to make a few comments.

Raymond Benjamins wrote:
YSMAEL: Does the Universal Father ESTEEM Muslims just as they are?
Does the Universal Father love every intelligent being EQUALLY?
Are Michael of Mebadon and Caligastia EQUALLY loved, esteemed, holy and righteous in the eyes of the Universal Father?
Is that person a "Muslim" who does not regard and obey the Quran?
Are Christians more or equally likely to brutalize others than Muslims?


In regards to the question if Michael and Caligastia are considered equally holy and righteous in the eyes of the Universal Father:
Isn't it obvious? How can both be equally righteous? Both are equally loved as persons, but their actions are not equal at all. Michael does God's will, Caligastia does not.

Are you trying to draw a parallel to how God feels about extreme religionists who blow themselves and others to kingdom come? Yes he loves them as persons, but as to their sins he has no attitude at all. To God, their sins (unrighteous behavior against God's will) do not exist.

God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe. 2:6:8

Yes, God does love every personality equally. A personality who is becoming unreal vanishes from his sight and loving care. It's not that God stops loving that person, it's that the person makes him/herself unreceptive to love and therefore cannot exist. So yes, God does love Muslims just as they are. He is blind to their sins. Should we be blind to their sins too? I don't think we can since we suffer from the repercussions of their sins. We have to deal with them. We also have to forgive them. But Jesus would never condone ignoring them, being indifferent and aloof. He always taught positive action in the face of evil and even the use of force in certain circumstances.

In terms of your other question, what is required of a Muslim, there are only five pillars of that faith and I hope I'm allowed to mention them on this forum. None of them mention reading or following scripture; it's implied. (It should be noted that Mohammed never wrote down his revelation; it was recited.)

1. The recital of the Kalima, or confession: There is but one God, and Mohammed is his prophet.
2. Observance of the five daily periods of prayer.
3. The giving of alms.
4. The fast of Ramadan.
5. Pilgrimage to Mecca.

Now, to keep this Urantia Papers oriented, the revelation informs us that recited confessions or prayers are ritualistic and thus primitive or unrefined. The giving of alms should be done without the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing. Fasting is dangerous; stones are not holy; and pilgrimage is just another ritual. Supporting quotes below:

Jesus did not require of his followers that they should periodically assemble and recite a form of words indicative of their common beliefs. He only ordained that they should gather together to actually do something — partake of the communal supper of the remembrance of his bestowal life on Urantia. 99:5:10
Jesus warned his followers against thinking that their prayers would be rendered more efficacious by ornate repetitions, eloquent phraseology, fasting, penance, or sacrifices. 146:2:15
Words become a part of ritual, such as the use of terms like amen and selah. The habit of swearing, profanity, represents a prostitution of former ritualistic repetition of holy names. The making of pilgrimages to sacred shrines is a very ancient ritual. 90:5:3
Religion has always been largely a matter of rites, rituals, observances, ceremonies, and dogmas. It has usually become tainted with that persistently mischief-making error, the chosen-people delusion. The cardinal religious ideas of incantation, inspiration, revelation, propitiation, repentance, atonement, intercession, sacrifice, prayer, confession, worship, survival after death, sacrament, ritual, ransom, salvation, redemption, covenant, uncleanness, purification, prophecy, original sin — they all go back to the early times of primordial ghost fear. 92:3:2
Early prayer was hardly worship; it was a bargaining petition for health, wealth, and life. And in many respects prayers have not much changed with the passing of the ages. They are still read out of books, recited formally, and written out for emplacement on wheels and for hanging on trees, where the blowing of the winds will save man the trouble of expending his own breath.89:8:8
When Jesus heard this, he said: "Be willing, then, to take up your responsibilities and follow me. Do your good deeds in secret; when you give alms, let not the left hand know what the right hand does. And when you pray, go apart by yourselves and use not vain repetitions and meaningless phrases. 140:6:11
But it is most dangerous to knowingly engage in spiritual fasting in order to improve one's appetite for spiritual endowments. Physical fasting becomes dangerous after four or five days; one is apt to lose all desire for food. Prolonged fasting, either physical or spiritual, tends to destroy hunger.140:5:8
I demand of you a righteousness that shall exceed the righteousness of those who seek to obtain the Father's favor by almsgiving, prayer, and fasting. 140:6:3
To pray is natural for the children of light, but fasting is not a part of the gospel of the kingdom of heaven.147:7:2
And then long into the night Jesus propounded to his apostles the truth that it was their faith that made them secure in the kingdom of the present and the future, and not their affliction of soul nor fasting of body. 147:8:5
There was only one factor of a tribal, racial, or national nature about the primitive and unorganized beliefs of the desert, and that was the peculiar and general respect which almost all Arabian tribes were willing to pay to a certain black stone fetish in a certain temple at Mecca. This point of common contact and reverence subsequently led to the establishment of the Islamic religion. What Yahweh, the volcano spirit, was to the Jewish Semites, the Kaaba stone became to their Arabic cousins. 95:7:5


In regards to your question about Christian brutality, we all know what they've done in the past. But the past is gone; it's over. Are there any Christian groups today attempting to create the chaos necessary for the imaginary end times that will bring their savior; are there marauding bands of Christians with bombs and guns who round up innocent girls to function as sex slaves in the name of their god? If there are any, today, in the present, I'm not aware of it. Does that make Christianity a better religion than Islam? No. It means that Christianity already went through that period of evolution, or so I think. Will Islam evolve similarly? That's yet to be seen. Paper 95 does quote the Qu'ran, so it gives me hope.

The strength of Islam has been its clear-cut and well-defined presentation of Allah as the one and only Deity; its weakness, the association of military force with its promulgation, together with its degradation of woman. But it has steadfastly held to its presentation of the One Universal Deity of all, “who knows the invisible and the visible. He is the merciful and the compassionate.” “Truly God is plenteous in goodness to all men.” “And when I am sick, it is he who heals me.” “For whenever as many as three speak together, God is present as a fourth,” for is he not “the first and the last, also the seen and the hidden”? 95:7:6

In Friendshp,
Rexford


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YSMAEL and quip: You fellows make my point.
You can plainly see that many Muslims are going throughout the world randomly attacking non-Muslims.
It is clear to me that you want this to happen upon all innocent folks, and then proceed to assert in no uncertain terms that Havona would welcome this conduct and that it all meets the full approval of the Universal Father.

Why is it so scarse to find UBers who exhibit some plain common sense? What in the Urantia Book could drive them that way?

Urantia is presently under attack by some very vicious brutal enemies, and all UBers could do about it is point fingers at Christianity and then welcome all the carnage with open arms.

My concern now is with the very credibility in public view of the Urantia Book. What does the public see? They see the champions of the Urantia Book displaying open indifference to the sufferings of the scores if the innocent who are brutalized and killed off by violent Islamists.

Have you UBers who defend Islam even cared to click the link I placed above on Islam for your enlightenment?

You guys are giving the Urantia Book a terribly bad reputation.


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Thanks to the voices of universal love for all the children of creation...all of whom are beloved by Father. This thread has caused me great pause, concern, and sorrow. I look forward to sharing the teachings of the Revelation related to the primary issue of who does God love? And what are we to do as his devoted children?

5:1.4 (63.2) The mortals of the realms of time and space may differ greatly in innate abilities and intellectual endowment, they may enjoy environments exceptionally favorable to social advancement and moral progress, or they may suffer from the lack of almost every human aid to culture and supposed advancement in the arts of civilization; but the possibilities for spiritual progress in the ascension career are equal to all; increasing levels of spiritual insight and cosmic meanings are attained quite independently of all such sociomoral differentials of the diversified material environments on the evolutionary worlds.

5:1.5 (63.3) However Urantia mortals may differ in their intellectual, social, economic, and even moral opportunities and endowments, forget not that their spiritual endowment is uniform and unique. They all enjoy the same divine presence of the gift from the Father, and they are all equally privileged to seek intimate personal communion with this indwelling spirit of divine origin, while they may all equally choose to accept the uniform spiritual leading of these Mystery Monitors.

And the Master said:

“I am sending you out into the world to represent me and to act as ambassadors of my Father’s kingdom, and as you go forth to proclaim the glad tidings, put your trust in the Father whose messengers you are. Do not forcibly resist injustice; put not your trust in the arm of the flesh. If your neighbor smites you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Be willing to suffer injustice rather than to go to law among yourselves. In kindness and with mercy minister to all who are in distress and in need.

140:3.15 (1571.2) “I say to you: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you. And whatsoever you believe that I would do to men, do you also to them.

140:3.16 (1571.3) “Your Father in heaven makes the sun to shine on the evil as well as upon the good; likewise he sends rain on the just and the unjust. You are the sons of God; even more, you are now the ambassadors of my Father’s kingdom. Be merciful, even as God is merciful, and in the eternal future of the kingdom you shall be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.

140:3.17 (1571.4) “You are commissioned to save men, not to judge them. At the end of your earth life you will all expect mercy; therefore do I require of you during your mortal life that you show mercy to all of your brethren in the flesh. Make not the mistake of trying to pluck a mote out of your brother’s eye when there is a beam in your own eye. Having first cast the beam out of your own eye, you can the better see to cast the mote out of your brother’s eye.

May love save us all....we shall receive as we give....and reap what we sow. 8)


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