Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:35 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 949
This is a difficult topic to put into words, but I'm hoping some of my fine friends who frequent this forum can help just a little bit.

I don't quite understand why our unseen friends and their superiors insist on continuing to challenge us (myself included) every single moment, every single day, unrelentingly to achieve something they apparently continually deny us the opportunity to acheive. Please don't read this as a complaint or a criticism. I understand that we, who are given rather special insight into the underpinnings of our life here on this planet, have special responsibilities and privileges because of that.

What is the most challenging of all is that those potential companions or helpers in the struggle to either advance the spiritual or intellectual status of our immediate environment seem to be challenged beyond their means... I can't tell you how many times a female companion and potential partner has responded to the opportunity to be a part of my life and the magnificent opportunity to make a real difference in the spiritual economy of this world in a general way but seemed to have been a subject whom extremely high demands were placed on. Male friends who also resonate with desire to make a difference also just seem to fall by the wayside...

Sure, we're only human and how much we can each accomplish in life is limited by that consideration. But in my case, why is there no definite success after so very many years of giving everything, continually, to the very limit of human endurance and capacity?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:23 am +0000
Posts: 818
Greetings Riktare,

Have you read this quote recently?

Even as mortals, so have these angels been father to many disappointments, and they will point out that sometimes your most disappointing disappointments have become your greatest blessings. Sometimes the planting of a seed necessitates its death, the death of your fondest hopes, before it can be reborn to bear the fruits of new life and new opportunity. And from them you will learn to suffer less through sorrow and disappointment, first, by making fewer personal plans concerning other personalities, and then, by accepting your lot when you have faithfully performed your duty. 48:6.25 

Maybe you won't let your fondest hopes die? Maybe you're making plans while God is trying to get you to follow his plan? Maybe your plans involving other personalities should be abandoned? Just a few possibilities.

Can't say I know what the answer is since I don't know the specifics. Personally, I have not experienced what you are describing, so it's hard to connect without more info.

In Friendship,
Rexford


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:55 am +0000
Posts: 432
Riktare,

If I may be so bold to attempt to read between the lines: are you disappointed that try as you might, you and other friends of yours simply have not had the long-term success that you desire in the search for a mate?

Forgive me if I'm getting too personal or way off, just trying to understand the question so I can do my best to give you an honest answer.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3967
My friends - a most important topic with great depth and breadth. As for me, I was a little surprised, and mortified, to learn that failure is the mirror of my true self; and that confusion, frustration, and disappointment would continue to attend my progress in the Spirit, and my increased experience and, hopefully, wisdom.

This is but the beginning of our endless quest for both experience and wisdom. There are many places where we are taught that our loving care givers and guides are indifferent to our ease and comfort in dealing with the edges of conflict and the vicissitudes of life.

Love to all who learn and grow....no matter what. We shall be blessed by and for our struggles to become.

:wink:


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:50 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:15 pm +0000
Posts: 232
Riktare wrote:
This is a difficult topic to put into words, but I'm hoping some of my fine friends who frequent this forum can help just a little bit.

I don't quite understand why our unseen friends and their superiors insist on continuing to challenge us (myself included) every single moment, every single day, unrelentingly to achieve something they apparently continually deny us the opportunity to acheive. Please don't read this as a complaint or a criticism. I understand that we, who are given rather special insight into the underpinnings of our life here on this planet, have special responsibilities and privileges because of that.

What is the most challenging of all is that those potential companions or helpers in the struggle to either advance the spiritual or intellectual status of our immediate environment seem to be challenged beyond their means... I can't tell you how many times a female companion and potential partner has responded to the opportunity to be a part of my life and the magnificent opportunity to make a real difference in the spiritual economy of this world in a general way but seemed to have been a subject whom extremely high demands were placed on. Male friends who also resonate with desire to make a difference also just seem to fall by the wayside...

Sure, we're only human and how much we can each accomplish in life is limited by that consideration. But in my case, why is there no definite success after so very many years of giving everything, continually, to the very limit of human endurance and capacity?

Riktare, I believe that I have an understanding of what you are attempting to project here, and it might seem that I have experienced much of your anguish regarding our unseen friends, and their modus operandi, so to speak but, in order to be specific would make any public narration futile because every persons experience may take on a variety of experiential formats. For the most part these are meant to be private and I too have hoped to speak openly with anyone who might be able to talk face to face regarding these subjects. Those experiences can be generalized through assimilation of experiences and for the most part those who have no clue, would look at those with a clue as if they needed help. And, actually they do need help but not the kind which might be aforethought.
So, to present any answers to your questions or concerns as mentioned above would need to be kept to oneself as a private message procedure within the sanctum of their mind(s). Because, what you seem to present above may, in different words not be what I might understand without clarification? Good Luck, Riktare.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 949
Thanks for your thoughtful replies Rexford, fanofVan and Caligastia. It helps to know so many of us grapple with this and I'm fully open to discussing it further.

quil, searching for a mate is one of many items. On one hand, I'm lucky enough to have had more intense success than maybe anyone could ever hope for. But on the other, that success seems to be very cruelly swept out from under my feet, every time. More than once I've had the strange thought that maybe some of us are marked for long delayed child rearing missions for the purpose of accumulating genetic and epi-genetic mutations (from exposure to higher energy circuits of the mind and body). Even finding social channels (in real life rather than the internet) to interact with people in a meaningful way is a tough nut to crack.

Other items that seem important to achieve have to do with artistic and scientific advances. Personal success in the creative aspect feels high, but making inroads into the public arena is also a very tough nut to crack.

Wrestling with deep, deep, deep disappointment is not a new phenomenon for the kid. :) Maybe he should just appreciate those brief moments of fleeting success. :)


Last edited by Riktare on Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:53 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 949
I find myself wishing there was somewhere on Earth where progressive people could live and work together and freely collaborate without the distractions and disruptions that put up so many barriers. It's hard to believe that many people don't want that themselves...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:23 pm +0000
Posts: 641
Hi Steve, perhaps Jesus put it best to the test.

193:3.2 "Peace be upon you. I have asked you to tarry here in Jerusalem until I ascend to the Father, even until I send you the Spirit of Truth, who shall soon be poured out upon all flesh, and who shall endow you with power from on high." Simon Zelotes interrupted Jesus, asking, "Then, Master, will you restore the kingdom, and will we see the glory of God manifested on earth?" When Jesus had listened to Simon's question, he answered: "Simon, you still cling to your old ideas about the Jewish Messiah and the material kingdom. But you will receive spiritual power after the spirit has descended upon you, and you will presently go into all the world preaching this gospel of the kingdom. As the Father sent me into the world, so do I send you. And I wish that you would love and trust one another. Judas is no more with you because his love grew cold, and because he refused to trust you, his loyal brethren. Have you not read in the Scripture where it is written: `It is not good for man to be alone. No man lives to himself'? And also where it says: `He who would have friends must show himself friendly'? And did I not even send you out to teach, two and two, that you might not become lonely and fall into the mischief and miseries of isolation? You also well know that, when I was in the flesh, I did not permit myself to be alone for long periods. From the very beginning of our associations I always had two or three of you constantly by my side or else very near at hand even when I communed with the Father. Trust, therefore, and confide in one another. And this is all the more needful since I am this day going to leave you alone in the world. The hour has come; I am about to go to the Father."

Peace to you, Brother Steve


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:23 am +0000
Posts: 818
Greetings Riktare,

I'm not sure advice is the best thing here. I can only share with you how I've dealt with my share of severe misfortunes, painful disappointments and disabling adversity. Looking at the big picture, I'm eternally grateful for all of it. When in the midst of the storm, I learned to also be thankful for it. It's the only way to open the door to God's help, Adjuster guidance. Being grateful, even for pain and suffering, is a gateway to the soul's recuperative powers.

I didn't realize this until finding the Papers. It was in reading that we are supposed to enthuse over apparent defeat that a lightbulb went on in my head. My brain said, "that's crazy," but my soul lit up with hope because I realized that it is the key to happiness. Soon every challenge became a way to make progress; decisions made during these times are often circle making decisions.

To enthuse over apparent defeat forces you out of the material level of thinking and into the soul level of thinking where everything is possible in partnership with God. This is the sole purpose of our existence here on earth, to move from the material to the spiritual, by way of the monotia soul. It's supposed to be difficult, thwarting, frustrating and disappointing; they don't call it survival for nothing. Think of it this way, if this life was a bed of roses, who in their right mind would seek heaven, perfection? God made life difficult for a reason, so we would strive for better. Isolating ourselves from it is not the answer. Embracing it is!

So for me, I wake up every morning and thank God for another day on earth. I thank him for my arthritis, and grumbling stomach, and for all the crazy mixed up people I read about in the morning paper. I thank him for my mundane chores; for my home and food; for my family and friends. I thank him for another day to search for truth, beauty and goodness, and for another day to make decisions that have a chance to resonate in the Supreme . . . I can only hope for that. What a blessing to be able to live and struggle to contribute to God's will on earth! Happiness comes from being grateful for the opportunity to strive, and that's the secret I wish everyone knew. Striving is hard but rewarding in that it gives you the soul peace that your brain simply cannot understand. Forget about understanding it. Embrace the struggle.

That, then, is the primary or elementary course which confronts the faith-tested and much-traveled pilgrims of space. But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: "In liaison with God, nothing — absolutely nothing — is impossible." 26:5:3

In Friendship,
Rexford


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 1369
Hi Riktare,

I have experienced my lot of disappointment and then some to be sure. The loss of connection with a friend or relative being the most difficult disappointment to endure. I too have developed and embraced a philosophy that disappointment is good. It's happened so many times, I have actually gotten to the point where I ask God for disappointment sometimes. Why? Because it's become clear to me looking back, that without disappointment, I wouldn't be where I am today, I wouldn't be as filled with joy, I wouldn't be as prepared to have everything and everybody stripped away from me, I wouldn't be as receptive to reality, I wouldn't posses less so I can have more.

I'll repeat the words from text Rex has already quoted. When I read them the first time, it settled me tremendously.

And from them you will learn to suffer less through sorrow and disappointment, first, by making fewer personal plans concerning other personalities, and then, by accepting your lot when you have faithfully performed your duty. 48:6.25

These things have led me to realize more clearly that in the Supreme we (personality) are one. And it's more important to be engaged with those folk who enter our lives randomly than to worry about those we desire and seek out.

Best wishes.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3967
Yes Rexford, yes indeed!!! ....and nod (we posted at the same time!)

I agree that it is best to consider our posts as reflections and personal experiences rather than "advice" for anyone regarding any specific challenge...it is all a challenge, this transfer of the seat of our identity....and it can be befuddling...at least.

Couple of points: first, I have learned that disappointment is a function/result of expectations. We expect or hope for one thing and something else results or happens. I am learning to manage such expectations of the material world and other people to find the lesson for me to grow with when disappointment creeps near by. I think disappointment stems from wanting to determine and manage outcomes - a desire to control and manage that which we may not control or manage. Expectations establish a certain rigidity and make us less adaptable and able to manage responses to what happens. I've heard that the secret to happiness is how quickly and gracefully we are able to move to Plan B!! And then C...and D. We are to embrace the process I think rather than the result. We are only in charge of our response to everything and the results of nothing I think.

I discovered long ago the only certainty in life is uncertainty. Life is unpredictable...man plans and the gods laugh! Uncertainty can be adventurous and exhilarating or frightening and crippling...and everything in between....we are meant to discover the wonder that despite immediate uncertainty as to outcome, the power of Father's love shared by his children for one another always results in ultimate goodness in ways which cannot be managed and controlled and predetermined by us children.

We are taught that no talent or passion or hope that is of true value will go unexpressed in time to come, if not sooner or now. Disappointment, uncertainty.....the hammer and anvil for the tempering of patience I think. And confidence in ultimacy to come from such potential. How do I respond to my disappointments? Am I invigorated and enthused to try again, and adapt my failure into some form of success? Are not all great scientists and athletes frustrated by every disappointment and failure and yet strive to achieve what they never have ever yet achieved? A new personal "Best". Patience combined with persistence and perseverance yields results - over time. Or perhaps we learn to better manage our expectations and to redirect our efforts in a more fruitful direction?

Why do we want what we want? Is what we want worthy? Is it about ME? That's a problem if so. What are we here for really? Can I be motivated by love and service and also place my wants above the needs of others presented to me every day? Are my wants more important than others' needs? So, who is it I serve again?

I am reminded of the time unit perspective to help sort out the actual or true lack of urgencies over time as compared to any moment in that time when so caught up in the drama of the moment that I lose sight of this moment in relation to all others before and to come. This life is where and when we will experience much that we will never again experience. In many ways that's good....but in other ways we will miss the material adventure in time to come. The more we progress in the circles and upon fusion, the more stable life becomes and the more predictable becomes the unpredictable....and that is the grandest adventure for us to learn....to feast on the immediate and local uncertainties while we learn the relationship between cause and effect...we choose and we respond to the effects of our own choices but, even more difficult, we are in a response chain and effect loop that originates from trillions upon trillions of other free will minds and choices.....the potential results of which are nearly infinite in scope.

To control my life requires my control over others' lives - ridiculously impossible and impertinent - or it requires controlling my expectations and my responses to whatever comes my way.

It is a problem we must each address, prayerfully and patiently. There is no uniform or universal solution for such personal and important lessons. I only offer my own confoundments and uncertainties here. Thankfully, I found a guide book through these vicissitudes of life and living that helps put things in better perspective which allows me to be human and to face my disappointments and confusions with good humor, great faith, and undying hope that all will be well in time to come and all eternity. I have read that we are not merely to endure this time but to embrace it joyfully as confident children in Father's garden of creation. I am just learning a little on what this means and how to be so and do so in this most confusing and disappointing place. This little light of mine.....

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:56 am +0000, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:23 am +0000
Posts: 818
Well said gentlemen, well said.

When Riktare mentioned this:

Riktare wrote:
I find myself wishing there was somewhere on Earth where progressive people could live and work together and freely collaborate without the distractions and disruptions that put up so many barriers. It's hard to believe that many people don't want that themselves...


It made me think of the talk that Jesus gave the lad who had run to the hills to be alone and away from his disappointments (reproduced below). Jesus told him to stand up like a man and that he could do so because the real things of the world are actually on his side. This is really good news. It may seem like everything and everybody in the world is working against you, but that is not true. It is only true if you look at the world with material eyes. Seeing the world through the spiritual eyes of the soul changes everything.

Jesus told the lad that the sun rises every morning to salute you, meaning the spiritual world sees us all as worthy. This means that the spiritual world is standing ready to help anyone who asks. But when we ask, we must be sincere. We must be willing to accept God's help knowing that it might mean abandoning our self-made dreams in lieu of his grander ideas. If we do, then we partake of the grandeur along with him.

Bottom line is this: we should not run away from distractions and disruptions. Jesus never did that. He would stop what he was doing and attend to the needs of the moment with all the soul powers he could muster. Jesus also told the young lad that he could never escape the problems of living. They are real and need to be dealt with, they need to be solved, so do it now. You can't ask the universe to give you the test tomorrow when you might be feeling better, tests need to be taken today. This is not kindergarten anymore. We're supposed to be men now, working on what's really important.

By this time the young man very much desired to talk with Jesus, and he knelt at his feet imploring Jesus to help him, to show him the way of escape from his world of personal sorrow and defeat. Said Jesus: “My friend, arise! Stand up like a man! You may be surrounded with small enemies and be retarded by many obstacles, but the big things and the real things of this world and the universe are on your side. The sun rises every morning to salute you just as it does the most powerful and prosperous man on earth. Look — you have a strong body and powerful muscles — your physical equipment is better than the average. Of course, it is just about useless while you sit out here on the mountainside and grieve over your misfortunes, real and fancied. But you could do great things with your body if you would hasten off to where great things are waiting to be done. You are trying to run away from your unhappy self, but it cannot be done. You and your problems of living are real; you cannot escape them as long as you live. But look again, your mind is clear and capable. Your strong body has an intelligent mind to direct it. Set your mind at work to solve its problems; teach your intellect to work for you; refuse longer to be dominated by fear like an unthinking animal. Your mind should be your courageous ally in the solution of your life problems rather than your being, as you have been, its abject fear-slave and the bond servant of depression and defeat. But most valuable of all, your potential of real achievement is the spirit which lives within you, and which will stimulate and inspire your mind to control itself and activate the body if you will release it from the fetters of fear and thus enable your spiritual nature to begin your deliverance from the evils of inaction by the power-presence of living faith. And then, forthwith, will this faith vanquish fear of men by the compelling presence of that new and all-dominating love of your fellows which will so soon fill your soul to overflowing because of the consciousness which has been born in your heart that you are a child of God. 130:6:3

In Gratitude for a Friendly Universe,
Rexford


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 949
Thanks again all for your thoughtful replies. In pondering the meaning of long term, intense disappointment I'm going to avoid unwarranted speculation. That's almost certainly a road down a shaky path. In my case, there is no disconnect between spiritual communion, destiny and the orientation towards destiny and current missions. It would seem that a lot of such disappointment is genetic - a factor of the strange conditions on this planet and how they affect us all. In addition, that, to be coupled to the hope that advance can be made if attended by a sincere application of grit and fortitude supported by a transcendent elevation of our will and desire to perform according to the will of the gods.

Much of what I was referring to in wanting to live in a progressive place has to do with the lack of effective leadership on this planet. It absolutely has nothing to do with attempting to escape reality - on the contrary, it may be related to hyper conscientiousness (maybe surpassing the orientation of the angels). Yes, we're called to help provide leadership, but performing in that role is a major challenge in that the uninitiated must be convinced about the validity of new leaders whose loyalties lie within a realm of values which the uninitiated are generally not privy to, in practice.

Strangely enough, at the company where I work, I'm currently being mentored by an upper level manager in leadership techniques and practice. I don't intend to take on a management role but clearly understand the value of such mentorship and realize that the theory and experience provided can open a lot of doors to making positive impacts on people and groups in both professional and personal life.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:23 pm +0000
Posts: 641
Riktare wrote:
Much of what I was referring to in wanting to live in a progressive place has to do with the lack of effective leadership on this planet.


Hi Steve, do not expect leadership on this world. Jesus provided immediate relief for our Earthly problems. He said, "follow me". He is who you must follow. All other are not fit to to even tie his sandal straps. Only Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life.

It is all yours, seize it!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Put to the test
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 949
This is getting all the more intriguing. Early this morning I had a dream where, in association with the resolution of one point of disappointment, a morontial experience was laid over the top of the dream scene. That was the first time that has ever happened to me (in a dream). For a fleeting moment it was incredibly beautiful and compelling. 8)

Also a couple of days ago I suddenly started thinking about a friend who is quite a well known physicist. Some years ago he had a stroke but he still managed to not only review a paper I was to publish (and find one oversight) but publicly supported the paper which was highly controversial in certain circles. I had emailed him some months ago but got no response and figured he had either deteriorated or passed away. But on googling his name in the last couple of days I discovered he had gotten a new email address and even wrote and published an extremely well written paper which got a fair amount of notice by the community. In responding to a point of criticism in a forum he referred to the contents of my paper. So it feels like another point of disappointment has faded.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group