Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:31 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 164 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:42 am +0000
Posts: 282
quil wrote:
Agreed. I thought about bringing it up before, but hoped you'd tone it down Yaakov. It looks like that great intellect of yours has become a liability and blinded you to obvious truths.

Irrespective of His religious mission and message, doubting the existence of Jesus the man is at the very least, intellectually dishonest. All things considered, it is delusional. If you're going to be consistent, then with your cynicism, you should doubt everything else in all those Holy books you revere so much.

By expressing this ludicrous doubt, all you really end up doing is exposing the underlying insecurities you have of your own faith. For some reason, Jesus threatens you. What better way to remove this threat by doubting its very existence? (denial)

I think deep down you can sense the truth in your heart, but your mind is doing everything in its power to suppress this hunch to fit some intellectual conclusion you have made. Your certitude of mind concerning all these matters ends up revealing how unsure you are of anything. It's a defense mechanism.

Ever ask yourself, sincerely, why did you do so much searching? Why so much studying of religion?

The good news, brother, many of us here share that hunger, and a lot of us were and in many ways still are in the same position. You have found the right place. I think your heart is leading you to the truth but your mind is stubbornly refusing, probably at this point going the opposite direction in a desperate attempt to maintain the order in thought it has carefully crafted over all these years.

No shame in any of that. This is how we grow.

Actually, I disagree. I think I am on VERY GOOD grounds to dispute the existence of Jesus without disputing the existence of the authors of the texts of the TaNaKh. However, out of respect for Larry's admonition, I think it best to not pursue this line of discussion further. We can do so in a PM if you like. Feel free to shoot me one if you so desire to continue.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 923
Rexford wrote:
Personally I have to disagree that incorporating the OT in the Christian canon was a great error.


Hi Rexford, I wouldn't call it a great error either. In hind sight (which is 20/20 as they say) what is probably problematic is too strongly canonizing the texts and forcing the OT to be learned and argued ad naseum. What a wonderful church or community would arise that only focused on the words and doings of the Master while using the other material as a supplement to help in understanding.

Maybe you know that Thomas Jefferson created his own bible from the NT by stripping away nearly everything was wasn't attributable to the Master. He gave a copy to every member of congress if I remember correctly.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:42 am +0000
Posts: 282
Riktare wrote:
Rexford wrote:
Personally I have to disagree that incorporating the OT in the Christian canon was a great error.


Hi Rexford, I wouldn't call it a great error either. In hind sight (which is 20/20 as they say) what is probably problematic is too strongly canonizing the texts and forcing the OT to be learned and argued ad naseum. What a wonderful church or community would arise that only focused on the words and doings of the Master while using the other material as a supplement to help in understanding.

Maybe you know that Thomas Jefferson created his own bible from the NT by stripping away nearly everything was wasn't attributable to the Master. He gave a copy to every member of congress if I remember correctly.

Actually, no, he didn't give it to anyone. In fact, no one knew about it aside from friends until after his death, when his private papers were published. But, for many years after, a copy was provided to every member of Congress. I myself have several editions of the text.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:23 am +0000
Posts: 818
Greetings Riktare,

You ask what a wonderful community would arise if only the words and doings of the Master were studied. Maybe so, but didn't he quote the OT constantly? One of his trademark sayings was to love your neighbor as yourself, which is right out of Deuteronomy. Some of his confrontations with the Pharisees were over OT passages. Jesus recited psalms as he was dying. And let's not forget the incident with the money changers when he said, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations, but you have made it a den of robbers." That's right out of Isaiah 56:7.

I'm not sure it's possible to fully understand Jesus' doings without understanding the culture in which he lived. His treatment of women doesn't seem very special today, but it was outrageous viewed in light of Jewish customs of the time. Taking him out of context would create unnecessary confusion, in my opinion. Jesus was a first century Jew and I think one needs to get the full picture of what that means.

What I'm trying to say is better summed up in this quote:

Quote:
In your consideration of the life and experience of the Son of Man, it should be ever borne in mind that the Son of God was incarnate in the mind of a first-century human being, not in the mind of a twentieth-century or other-century mortal. By this we mean to convey the idea that the human endowments of Jesus were of natural acquirement. He was the product of the hereditary and environmental factors of his time, plus the influence of his training and education. His humanity was genuine, natural, wholly derived from the antecedents of, and fostered by, the actual intellectual status and social and economic conditions of that day and generation. While in the experience of this God-man there was always the possibility that the divine mind would transcend the human intellect, nonetheless, when, and as, his human mind functioned, it did perform as would a true mortal mind under the conditions of the human environment of that day. 136:8:7


In Friendship,
Rexford


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:09 am +0000
Posts: 722
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Quote:
Actually, I disagree. I think I am on VERY GOOD grounds to dispute the existence of Jesus without disputing the existence of the authors of the texts of the TaNaKh. However, out of respect for Larry's admonition, I think it best to not pursue this line of discussion further. We can do so in a PM if you like. Feel free to shoot me one if you so desire to continue.


Our friend Yaakov,

I think it would be fair to everyone, if you read Part IV of the UB first before we further discuss with you the existence or not of Jesus.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:42 am +0000
Posts: 282
Being on a tablet to compose my reply makes quoting virtually impossible due to the nature of said device. However, a few brief things can be said. First, we each take our Sacred Scriptures very differently. I subject all books to the merciless light of historical fact. That having been said, there is quite a bit of a corroborating evidence supporting the TaNaKh.

Now, avoiding the question of the very existence of Jesus, it seems to me, and do correct me if I am wrong, at present, there is very little (in fact, as a professional historian, I am currently forced to conclude nil) evidence supporting the historical claims that are made about most of the early human history in the UB. I have read a good part of Part III also, and I know for a fact that many scientists (perhaps most) would argue with the idea of humans being descended from lemurs.

Now, this is NOT to say that the evidence won't be found. It might. But, as to the commentary about how Jesus treated women vs how Jews then treated them, I can respond on two levels. One, it bespeaks a remarkable amount of shall we say politely, "lack of knowledge" of how Judaism then and now actually elevates women as uniquely spiritual beings, more so even then men. Two, the whole question of Jesus having appointed Twelve of them is not attested to anywhere outside the UB. Now again, it may have occurred. Evidence thereof may turn up. But, until then, it must be regarded as speculative at best.

If the the TaNaKh is going to be held to such high standards, which is as it should be, then surely all religious books making comparable or greater claims (as the UB does) should likewise be so held. Now, admittedly, I believe with Faith in the TaNaKh. You all believe in the UB. This is as it should be. But we all need to be intellectually honest with ourselves as well.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 940
Quote:
I know for a fact that many scientists (perhaps most) would argue with the idea of humans being descended from lemurs.


uh huh...and i know for a fact that many paleontologists would simply say that there are too many gaps in the known fossil record to be sure, but there is fossil evidence for hominids/anthropoids evolving from lemurs/prosimians...detailed here:

Revealing The Link


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 1369
Hi Yaakov,


"the merciless light of historical fact"

Please let us know which "fact" you refer to here little buddy.
1. "fact" - the facts that are true in the actual sense, the historically real sense, or
2. "fact" - the facts that have been maligned and altered (like at a crime scene) by a criminal mastermind?



"avoiding the question of the very existence of Jesus"

1. Did you say avoiding?
2. I am tremendously enjoying your (how did you say it?) obnoxiousness.
3. Is this behavior due to your "lack of knowledge"?



"This is as it should be. But we all need to be intellectually honest with ourselves as well."

Honestly Yaakov, please understand, we get the need, that all "need to be intellectually honest". So as soon as you cowboy up, I might feel compelled to let you know that you've made it onto our team. The team of the intellectually honest.



Always looking forward to more from you cousin.

:biggrin:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:42 am +0000
Posts: 282
nodAmanaV wrote:
Hi Yaakov,


"the merciless light of historical fact"

Please let us know which "fact" you refer to here little buddy.

Insulting me merely makes you look foolish. Perhaps you should stop while you are ahead. Some people are thought to be fools. Others open their mouth and remove all doubt as to that fact.

Quote:
1. "fact" - the facts that are true in the actual sense, the historically real sense, or
2. "fact" - the facts that have been maligned and altered (like at a crime scene) by a criminal mastermind?

This is an illogical response that serves no purpose. History simply is. You can try to rewrite it, but it always will out in the end, and that has been proven, time and again, with the TaNaKh. To suggest otherwise is to fade from history into fantasy, from reality into stupidity.



Quote:
"avoiding the question of the very existence of Jesus"

1. Did you say avoiding?
2. I am tremendously enjoying your (how did you say it?) obnoxiousness.
3. Is this behavior due to your "lack of knowledge"?

My first suggestion would be to grow up. You sound like the resident bully on the Fourth Grade playground, only you don't do it very well.



Quote:
"This is as it should be. But we all need to be intellectually honest with ourselves as well."

Honestly Yaakov, please understand, we get the need, that all "need to be intellectually honest". So as soon as you cowboy up, I might feel compelled to let you know that you've made it onto our team. The team of the intellectually honest.

A stupid response at best, attempting to imply that only you can be intellectually honest. Given the number of people that exist on the planet that don't believe in the UB either before OR after hearing about it, and are indeed intellectually honest, such a claim is inherently arrogant at best, and downright ridiculous at worst.



Quote:
Always looking forward to more from you cousin.

:biggrin:

Not being related to you, I would greatly appreciate not being addressed so familiarly. Thank you.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 1369
Yaakov001 wrote:
nodAmanaV wrote:
Always looking forward to more from you cousin.

:biggrin:

Not being related to you, I would greatly appreciate not being addressed so familiarly. Thank you.

I'm not so sure we're not related since all men are brothers, but for the moment all that I could do to indicate our family relation (that's in the sense of the human family) is to address you as my cousin. Referring to you as a brother isn't appropriate since you're in denial of the authority of my big brother (you know who) for the time being anyway. Sorry cousin.

In the meantime - and I mean, mean - maybe you'll get a change of perspective regarding the grudge you hold against my oldest brother. What has he ever done to you btw? I mean (there's that word again, mean) he's standing in the room for heaven's sake, and you keep refusing to look him in the eye, shake his hand and say hello!

All I care about is to discuss the text of the UB. You have the right to deny its reality, what it says and what it is, that's your prerogative. I have the right to counter your ridiculous assertions and attempts to discredit Him. This is not a game. If you are sincere in its study, let's discuss what the text says. But why continually set what the text says against your sacred book? Follow us in the study of the text and perhaps we'll both learn something that otherwise we wouldn't. Let's improve the quality of thinking regarding the UB, not keep measuring it with a ruler.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 1369
156:1.5 (1735.1) Then came forward Simon Zelotes to remonstrate with Norana. Said Simon: “Woman, you are a Greek-speaking gentile. It is not right that you should expect the Master to take the bread intended for the children of the favored household and cast it to the dogs.” But Norana refused to take offense at Simon’s thrust. She replied only: “Yes, teacher, I understand your words. I am only a dog in the eyes of the Jews, but as concerns your Master, I am a believing dog. I am determined that he shall see my daughter, for I am persuaded that, if he shall but look upon her, he will heal her. And even you, my good man, would not dare to deprive the dogs of the privilege of obtaining the crumbs which chance to fall from the children’s table.”

156:1.6 (1735.2) At just this time the little girl was seized with a violent convulsion before them all, and the mother cried out: “There, you can see that my child is possessed by an evil spirit. If our need does not impress you, it would appeal to your Master, who I have been told loves all men and dares even to heal the gentiles when they believe. You are not worthy to be his disciples. I will not go until my child has been cured.”

156:1.7 (1735.3) Jesus, who had heard all of this conversation through an open window, now came outside, much to their surprise, and said: “O woman, great is your faith, so great that I cannot withhold that which you desire; go your way in peace. Your daughter already has been made whole.” And the little girl was well from that hour.

156:1.8 (1735.4) The next day, as Jesus taught his apostles, commenting on the cure of the daughter of the Syrian woman, he said: “And so it has been all the way along; you see for yourselves how the gentiles are able to exercise saving faith in the teachings of the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. Verily, verily, I tell you that the Father’s kingdom shall be taken by the gentiles if the children of Abraham are not minded to show faith enough to enter therein.”


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 923
Hi Rexford,

I would agree if a person must be 100% intellectually engaged and work intellectually through all possible aspects of the Master's life. In that case of course we need the NT, OT and TUB :) But that is a goal for only some. The far more realistic situation for the vast majority of the Earth's people is to catch, spiritually, a strong enough glimpse of the morontial and moral realities of what his life meant. That, I would argue, is very plainly evident outside of the detailed historical context surrounding those events.

For example, the meanng and motivation behind "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations, but you have made it a den of robbers." need no particular in-depth historical context to register immediately on the soul of a listener.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 923
Makalu wrote:
there is fossil evidence for hominids/anthropoids evolving from lemurs/prosimians...detailed here:


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... found.html

There is something strangely compelling about "Ida". She seems to me so much more human than Lucy the australopithecus specimen and similar rudolfensis, habilis, erectus and paranthropus specimens. But she is 40 million years older...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:23 am +0000
Posts: 818
Hi Riktare,

I can agree with your post in part. For instance, the first part of the phrase you quoted from Jesus when he cleansed the Temple is self explanatory in that generation and in this one. But the second half, "you have made it a den of robbers," makes no sense unless you understand who he was talking to and what made them robbers in his eyes. That's historical stuff, as I see it.

But I agree that erudite study of the Master's life alone can only bring intellectual rewards. The soul needs more than just intellectual study. But we are told in Paper 196 not to worry so much about what Jesus meant, or taught, but rather what he did. And that, I think, works best in context whenever possible.

So yes, I agree that the study of history alone is inadequate, but it is part of the triad of origin, history and destiny which gives us the wisest assessment of the present. At least that's what is says in Paper 19.

In Friendship,
Rexford


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 164 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: gizmo


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group