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Rexford wrote:
Caligastia,

You wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
Where the following: "Forty years before the destruction of the Temple the Sanhedrin went into exile and took its seat in the trade Halls." -- which would place that around 30CE. . . . Also, if "the Sanhedrin went into exile and took its seat in the trade Halls", would any case coming before them be presented in the "trade Halls"? which, would allow for additional member types being present. Also, what would "exile" indicate?


As I understand the reference to exile as explained by Robert Eisenman in his book entitled, The New Testament Code, and also in his book, James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls, it has to do with the fact that the place where the Sanhedrin met was moved from a great stone chamber on the Temple Mount (chamber of hewn stone) to a place outside of the Temple. This move outside of the Temple allegedly made all capital sentences of the Sanhedrin unlawful and invalid.

Markus Bockmuehl, in The Cambridge Companion to Jesus, states that Caiaphas was responsible for moving the Sanhedrin from the chamber of hewn stone within the Temple to Hanut so he could take the vendors that had been at Hanut and set them up in the porticos of the Temple. This makes Jesus' expulsion of the vendors all the more interesting to me.

But even more interesting is this quote from Paper 184 which says that at the time of Jesus' trial, the Sanhedrin met at Caiaphas' palace rather its usual place, the chamber of hewn stone. I'm not sure what to make of all that.

Quote:
This was not a regularly called meeting of the Sanhedrin and was not held in the usual place, the chamber of hewn stone in the temple. This was a special trial court of some thirty Sanhedrists and was convened in the palace of the high priest. John Zebedee was present with Jesus throughout this so-called trial. 184:3.2


In Friendship,
Rexford

Rexford, I'm glad that you brought this up because I didn't think that "Yaakov001" would delve into the possible implications which the content of "15a" might imply, where taking into account the same type of scrutiny which the Sages of Israel might ascertain from its content should be used to possibly indicate that Jesus did exist, and that the Jews of His day, at least some who were in authority may have considered Jesus as an authority? Had you not of brought this up, I was prepared to present the following which seems a logical assessment.

Quote:
‘Jose b. Jo'ezer of Zeredah and Jose b. Johanan of Jerusalem decreed uncleanness in respect of the country of the heathens and glassware.’ But the Rabbis of the ‘eighty years’ decreed this? For R. Kahana said, When R. Ishmael son of R. Jose fell sick, they [the Rabbis] sent [word] to him, ‘Rabbi, Tell us the two or three things which you stated [formerly] on your father's authority.’ He sent back, ‘Thus did my father say: One hundred and eighty years before the destruction of the Temple the wicked State [sc. Rome] spread over Israel.13 Eighty years before the destruction of the Temple uncleanness was imposed in respect of the country of heathens and glassware. Forty years before the destruction of the Temple the Sanhedrin went into exile14 and took its seat in the trade Halls.15 (in respect to what law [is this stated]?-Said R. Isaac b. Abdimi, To teach that they did not adjudicate in laws of fines.16 ‘The laws of fines’ can you think so!17 But say: They did not adjudicate in capital cases.18 ) And should you answer, They [Jose b. Jo'ezer and Jose b. Johanan] flourished during these eighty years too: surely it was taught: Hillel and Simeon [his son], Gamaliel and Simeon wielded their Patriarchate during one hundred years of the Temple's existence;19 whereas Jose b. Jo'ezer of Zeredah and Jose b. Johanan were much earlier!20

Based on the content and context of the above extract, from the Talmud, it would or might indicate that over time and based on the principle that there may have been legitimate blame placed upon Jews in general for Jesus' crucifixion, would reason that the best approach to Jesus, by the scholars of Judaica, would best take on a non-existence approach, and may have been established in that era. Therefore it would not surprise me to read above that "the Sanhedrin went into exile and took its seat in the trade Halls", where as you mention above "This makes Jesus' expulsion of the vendors all the more interesting to me." which also occurred to me to be in the same time frame as mentioned above. Now it would be less than appropriate to have any direct mention of Jesus in the Talmud, but there would be even less to present such a precise reference to historic events which place the timetable to point to someone who might have been considered as an authority to the Law, which demanded respect from a majority of the then Sanhedrin. Also there is no mention in text, to my knowledge, that Jesus was admonished by the Sanhedrin for His "expulsion of the vendors" from the Temple grounds, and would indicate a guilty reception by the actions of the Sanhedrin as to specific Jewish Law.
Therefore, it would not surprise me that an animosity prevailed against Jesus, and that some members of the Sanhedrin may have considered the thought that Jesus may have been legitimate as to others claims at that time, and would for some of the hierarchy of the Sanhedrin, a threat to their authority, whereby as it is with men of power, they crave more power, and will stop at nothing to either retain or strengthen that power, even to the point of removing or altering recorded history.

I would propose that the UB quote which I presented in another thread listed below, as indicated as presented by Jesus, and that He was aware of the proceedings going on, and that one cold say that would continue throughout history.

Quote:
(1768.5) 159:4.9 “But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

(1769.1) 159:4.10 But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.”


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We've been over this ground before. Now, I have not read "The New Testament Code", although it is in my library. I have another of his books as well, a collection of a translation of some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as "James, the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls", the last of which I JUST bought on my Kindle as we speak, and if my wife finds out, I'm dead. :| :| I had better hope that there are O:) O:) guarding me if she knows.

But the Sanhedrin, or any other judicial body, would not have had time to judge Jesus for running out the money-changers in the Temple. The Roman Guard would have done that, and the judgment would have involved turning him into Swiss cheese.

Caligastia wrote:
Rexford wrote:
Caligastia,

You wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
Where the following: "Forty years before the destruction of the Temple the Sanhedrin went into exile and took its seat in the trade Halls." -- which would place that around 30CE. . . . Also, if "the Sanhedrin went into exile and took its seat in the trade Halls", would any case coming before them be presented in the "trade Halls"? which, would allow for additional member types being present. Also, what would "exile" indicate?


As I understand the reference to exile as explained by Robert Eisenman in his book entitled, The New Testament Code, and also in his book, James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls, it has to do with the fact that the place where the Sanhedrin met was moved from a great stone chamber on the Temple Mount (chamber of hewn stone) to a place outside of the Temple. This move outside of the Temple allegedly made all capital sentences of the Sanhedrin unlawful and invalid.

Markus Bockmuehl, in The Cambridge Companion to Jesus, states that Caiaphas was responsible for moving the Sanhedrin from the chamber of hewn stone within the Temple to Hanut so he could take the vendors that had been at Hanut and set them up in the porticos of the Temple. This makes Jesus' expulsion of the vendors all the more interesting to me.

But even more interesting is this quote from Paper 184 which says that at the time of Jesus' trial, the Sanhedrin met at Caiaphas' palace rather its usual place, the chamber of hewn stone. I'm not sure what to make of all that.

Quote:
This was not a regularly called meeting of the Sanhedrin and was not held in the usual place, the chamber of hewn stone in the temple. This was a special trial court of some thirty Sanhedrists and was convened in the palace of the high priest. John Zebedee was present with Jesus throughout this so-called trial. 184:3.2


In Friendship,
Rexford

Rexford, I'm glad that you brought this up because I didn't think that "Yaakov001" would delve into the possible implications which the content of "15a" might imply, where taking into account the same type of scrutiny which the Sages of Israel might ascertain from its content should be used to possibly indicate that Jesus did exist, and that the Jews of His day, at least some who were in authority may have considered Jesus as an authority?

Given that Jesus was a man without a formal education beyond that of the standard childhood, it is hard to imagine how any Jewish authority would have regarded him in such a manner. Even the UB does not portray him as highly educated as such. I have read that far.

Quote:
Had you not of brought this up, I was prepared to present the following which seems a logical assessment.

Quote:
‘Jose b. Jo'ezer of Zeredah and Jose b. Johanan of Jerusalem decreed uncleanness in respect of the country of the heathens and glassware.’ But the Rabbis of the ‘eighty years’ decreed this? For R. Kahana said, When R. Ishmael son of R. Jose fell sick, they [the Rabbis] sent [word] to him, ‘Rabbi, Tell us the two or three things which you stated [formerly] on your father's authority.’ He sent back, ‘Thus did my father say: One hundred and eighty years before the destruction of the Temple the wicked State [sc. Rome] spread over Israel.13 Eighty years before the destruction of the Temple uncleanness was imposed in respect of the country of heathens and glassware. Forty years before the destruction of the Temple the Sanhedrin went into exile14 and took its seat in the trade Halls.15 (in respect to what law [is this stated]?-Said R. Isaac b. Abdimi, To teach that they did not adjudicate in laws of fines.16 ‘The laws of fines’ can you think so!17 But say: They did not adjudicate in capital cases.18 ) And should you answer, They [Jose b. Jo'ezer and Jose b. Johanan] flourished during these eighty years too: surely it was taught: Hillel and Simeon [his son], Gamaliel and Simeon wielded their Patriarchate during one hundred years of the Temple's existence;19 whereas Jose b. Jo'ezer of Zeredah and Jose b. Johanan were much earlier!20

Based on the content and context of the above extract, from the Talmud, it would or might indicate that over time and based on the principle that there may have been legitimate blame placed upon Jews in general for Jesus' crucifixion,

One is automatically forced to question how any blame can be attached to Jews for the imposition on one of their own of an Imperial punishment.

Quote:
would reason that the best approach to Jesus, by the scholars of Judaica, would best take on a non-existence approach, and may have been established in that era.

How would one follow the other? If he existed, he did. If he did not, he did not. End of story.

Quote:
Therefore it would not surprise me to read above that "the Sanhedrin went into exile and took its seat in the trade Halls", where as you mention above "This makes Jesus' expulsion of the vendors all the more interesting to me." which also occurred to me to be in the same time frame as mentioned above. Now it would be less than appropriate to have any direct mention of Jesus in the Talmud, but there would be even less to present such a precise reference to historic events which place the timetable to point to someone who might have been considered as an authority to the Law, which demanded respect from a majority of the then Sanhedrin.

The very fact that he is NOT mentioned in Talmud is an indicator against his existence. In fact, there is NO reliable indicator of his existence outside the NT, which books were written 30-60 years after his supposed death. The "lost books of the Bible", or NT Apocryphon, were all written MUCH later. As for the supposed letters of Pontius Pilate to Tiberius, it too is questionable for reasons I pointed out.

Non-Christians make little reference to him, and none of it is reference to having met him. Only TWO historians of a non-Jewish nature refer to him, Pliny and Tacitus, and they refer ABOUT him (as someone the detested Christians worship). Flavius Josephus, a Romanised Jew, does mention him, but only in a passage that is now thought to be a later Christian interpolation. All told, these are NOT good odds for someone's existence who supposedly should have changed history.

Quote:
Also there is no mention in text, to my knowledge, that Jesus was admonished by the Sanhedrin for His "expulsion of the vendors" from the Temple grounds, and would indicate a guilty reception by the actions of the Sanhedrin as to specific Jewish Law.
Therefore, it would not surprise me that an animosity prevailed against Jesus, and that some members of the Sanhedrin may have considered the thought that Jesus may have been legitimate as to others claims at that time, and would for some of the hierarchy of the Sanhedrin, a threat to their authority, whereby as it is with men of power, they crave more power, and will stop at nothing to either retain or strengthen that power, even to the point of removing or altering recorded history.


Assuming that Jesus actually existed, and had an effect on as many people as it is claimed he did, it would be rather hard for a Jewish court of any sort to "remove or alter recorded history." If in fact they tried, they obviously did not succeed. But the problem is, THERE IS NO recorded history. Not in the Talmud, which should be full of it, as it was in the process of being formed when Jesus supposedly lived, not in foreign literature, which should have been replete with information, given the kind of stuff this man was supposedly doing at the time and who witnessed it (Pentecost being a perfect example; all those men from all those countries should have brought that news home and it should have spread WILDLY), not anywhere, and this was a time when news spread pretty quickly across the grounds of the Empire.

Quote:
I would propose that the UB quote which I presented in another thread listed below, as indicated as presented by Jesus, and that He was aware of the proceedings going on, and that one cold say that would continue throughout history.

Quote:
(1768.5) 159:4.9 “But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

(1769.1) 159:4.10 But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.”

In fine, there is not much more on the subject that can be said. Things being what they are, Its hard to imagine that he did exist when so few people noticed or cared at the time.


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And this is why this is a prison world. Where the truth is disturbed. Because we're all prisoners to evil. We have no choice. We run behind it's bars for safety. Protection from evil.

And this is why the first mansion world is a prison. To hold the disturbred who come from Urantia. Who lived behind bars for defense. Protection from chosen people. Who have twisted the law and imprisoned Gud. Driving the innocent children towards madness.

Heaven. Help.


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I think any further discussion about "whether Jesus actually existed or not" is so well beneath the intellectual standards for a Urantia Book discussion board that we will no longer entertain such discussion. People can argue any ridiculous proposition they can conjure up; that doesn't mean it's an acceptable topic on this discussion board and questioning the existence of Jesus is so far off the mark that it now comes to an end. If "scholars" question Jesus' existence it's because they have a secular agenda that blinds any connection to truth or reality... this is not the place for secular agenda discussions. It's for the discussion of The Urantia Book and its teachings.

Any "scholar" interested in reviewing the impact Jesus has had on humanity can do a simple Google query... "how did Jesus change the world" and receive over 100 million hits that show how the history of the world has been altered by this one person's life and teachings. To promote the belief that Jesus is a figment of imagination is to believe in the grandest hoax imaginable, a stretch of imagination into the realm of the lunacy.

Here's a sumarization from just one of the sites offering insight into the contributions Jesus' life made to the world... http://www.frontline.org.za/index.php?o ... -the-world

He transformed the very way we measure time.

The world before Jesus was a world without hospitals, a world without charity, a world without respect for the sanctity of life.

The whole concept of charity was a Christian innovation.

Everything from education to human rights, from public health to economic liberty - the things we cherish most and many of the blessings we take for granted - all can be traced to the spiritual and the cultural revolution begun by Jesus.

Jesus was the greatest teacher the world has ever known. When He spoke, "They were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority…" Mark 1:22. The life, teachings and example of Jesus have profoundly influenced the whole development of education worldwide.

From the very beginning Christians established schools. Amongst the many innovations in Christian Education was that these Christian schools taught everybody, including girls and women.

"Every school you see - public or private, religious or secular - is a visible reminder of the religion of Jesus. So is every college and university." Dr. James Kennedy.

The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in Christianity.

Every branch and level of education was pioneered by Bible believing Christians.

Sunday schools were begun by Robert Raikes in 1780, to provide boys and girls from the poorest homes with the gift of literacy and the riches of the Scriptures.

Christianity gave birth to modern science.

Most of the languages of the world were first set to writing by Christian missionaries. The first book in most languages of the world has been the Bible. Christianity has been the greatest force for promoting literacy worldwide throughout history.

Before the advent of Christianity every culture-practised slavery and human sacrifice.

Before Jesus, human life in the Greek and Roman world was extremely cheap. Infants born with physical defects such as blindness, were commonly abandoned .

The life and teachings of Jesus have inspired the greatest literature, the greatest art, the greatest examples of architecture, the age of exploration, world missions, the rule of law, the separation of powers, checks and balances, representative government, the sanctity of life, compassion for the poor, blind and needy and so much more that we take for granted.

Christianity has been the most powerful agent in transforming society for the better across 2000 years. No other religion, philosophy, teaching, nation, or movement has changed the world for the better as Christianity has done.

Wise men still seek Him.

To refute the existence of Jesus is to be blind to historical reality, to be blinded by ideology, to disdain truth. Believe that Jesus never existed if you choose but don't discuss it here.

Larry


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Ignoring the question of whether Jesus actually existed or not (lets assume he DID, for the sake of argument), observe the following:

lwatkins wrote:
I think any further discussion about "whether Jesus actually existed or not" is so well beneath the intellectual standards for a Urantia Book discussion board that we will no longer entertain such discussion. People can argue any ridiculous proposition they can conjure up; that doesn't mean it's an acceptable topic on this discussion board and questioning the existence of Jesus is so far off the mark that it now comes to an end. If "scholars" question Jesus' existence it's because they have a secular agenda that blinds any connection to truth or reality... this is not the place for secular agenda discussions. It's for the discussion of The Urantia Book and its teachings.

Any "scholar" interested in reviewing the impact Jesus has had on humanity can do a simple Google query... "how did Jesus change the world" and receive over 100 million hits that show how the history of the world has been altered by this one person's life and teachings. To promote the belief that Jesus is a figment of imagination is to believe in the grandest hoax imaginable, a stretch of imagination into the realm of the lunacy.

Here's a sumarization from just one of the sites offering insight into the contributions Jesus' life made to the world... http://www.frontline.org.za/index.php?o ... -the-world

He transformed the very way we measure time.

The world before Jesus was a world without hospitals, a world without charity, a world without respect for the sanctity of life.

The whole concept of charity was a Christian innovation.

This is an absurd notion. Judaism has ALWAYS had Tzedakah, or Charity. The Torah itself is a guideline for how to make sure that no one ends up extremely rich or extremely poor in a Halachic State.

Quote:
Everything from education to human rights, from public health to economic liberty - the things we cherish most and many of the blessings we take for granted - all can be traced to the spiritual and the cultural revolution begun by Jesus.

Most of these things can be derived ultimately from the Torah, not from Jesus.

Quote:
Jesus was the greatest teacher the world has ever known. When He spoke, "They were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority…" Mark 1:22. The life, teachings and example of Jesus have profoundly influenced the whole development of education worldwide.

To be honest, no, they haven't. They have influenced CHRISTIAN educational development, but NOT Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc, educational development, which altogether FAR outnumber Christians in the world.

Quote:
From the very beginning Christians established schools. Amongst the many innovations in Christian Education was that these Christian schools taught everybody, including girls and women.

I suppose that would explain why during the Middle Ages, 95% of Europeans were completely illiterate in any language, whereas EVERY single Ashkenazi Jewish male could at LEAST read, write, and speak Hebrew, and usually Yiddish, and the language of the country of his residence. These men were all too often indispensable to the governments of the countries where they lived in working with foreign governments (particularly Muslim ones), and in handling matters of finance, as they were trusted, since under the laws of Gentile governments they had few rights, and were watched over like hawks.

Quote:
"Every school you see - public or private, religious or secular - is a visible reminder of the religion of Jesus. So is every college and university." Dr. James Kennedy.

The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in Christianity.

Every branch and level of education was pioneered by Bible believing Christians.

Sunday schools were begun by Robert Raikes in 1780, to provide boys and girls from the poorest homes with the gift of literacy and the riches of the Scriptures.

Chedar, or religious school, had existed for Jewish children, for CENTURIES by this time.

Quote:
Christianity gave birth to modern science.

Most of the languages of the world were first set to writing by Christian missionaries. The first book in most languages of the world has been the Bible. Christianity has been the greatest force for promoting literacy worldwide throughout history.

Before the advent of Christianity every culture-practised slavery and human sacrifice.

As did many Christian ones, in terms of slavery. And Judaism did not practice human sacrifice thank you.

Quote:
Before Jesus, human life in the Greek and Roman world was extremely cheap. Infants born with physical defects such as blindness, were commonly abandoned.

Although this was NOT common in Judea.

Quote:
The life and teachings of Jesus have inspired the greatest literature, the greatest art, the greatest examples of architecture, the age of exploration, world missions, the rule of law, the separation of powers, checks and balances, representative government, the sanctity of life, compassion for the poor, blind and needy and so much more that we take for granted.

Christianity has been the most powerful agent in transforming society for the better across 2000 years. No other religion, philosophy, teaching, nation, or movement has changed the world for the better as Christianity has done.

Christianity has done as much, until recently, to destroy my people, as it is possible for a group of people to do. With every hue and cry of, "kill the Jews!", my people has had to run and feel afraid. From the Crusades to the Pogroms, from the Pogroms to the Holocaust, it has been one long night of terror for us. Whether Jesus existed or not is actually beside the point.

Now, I shall admit, in the last several years (perhaps 20), Muslims have become the bugbear, and Christians the nice guys. But they have ulterior motives. The Christians who support us do so for their own ends, to hasten the return of Jews to Israel, to hasten our conversion to Christianity, to bring about the end of the world and the return of Jesus. They want to cause the end of my People by non-violence, but they still want to end my People.

Quote:
Wise men still seek Him.

To refute the existence of Jesus is to be blind to historical reality, to be blinded by ideology, to disdain truth. Believe that Jesus never existed if you choose but don't discuss it here.

Larry

So one can still accept the fact that Jesus existed (note that at the beginning I said we were, for sake of argument, assuming that he did), and still observe the overall damage Christianity has managed to do at least to my people. I won't deny that it has some value, if only to spread knowledge of the Hebrew Bible to the world. Beyond that however... I would think that with its emphasis on Blood Atonement, you yourselves would have issues with it. But that's as may be. My point has only been to prove to you that much of which you credit Christianity with doing had nothing to do with Christianity, but rather, everything to do with the Judaism that preceded it.


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Hi Yaakov001, You are probably quite correct in everything you last stated (up to the last three paragraphs). But the issue is that the Israelites did not really bring those advances to the world. A beneficiary would have had to became a Jew and live amongst Jews to participate.


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Riktare wrote:
Hi Yaakov001, You are probably quite correct in everything you last stated (up to the last three paragraphs). But the issue is that the Israelites did not really bring those advances to the world. A beneficiary would have had to became a Jew and live amongst Jews to participate.

And the same is true of benefiting from the blessings of Christianity. Ever heard the term "Rice Christian"? And we brought the very concept of these things to the world. The only way Christians were able to pass them on to anyone was through appropriation of of our TaNaKh into their own Bible.


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"this is not the place for secular agenda discussions. It's for the discussion of The Urantia Book and its teachings."

What is your agenda Yaakov?

Everyone already knows that without the Jew and his superiority, all men would still be living in caves.

Why are you here distracting from "the discussion of The Urantia Book and its teachings." as Larry indicates is the purpose of this board.

Aren't there other forums for pontificating on Jewish propaganda?

You have some "chutzpah" coming here and telling us Jesus doesn't exist.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
"this is not the place for secular agenda discussions. It's for the discussion of The Urantia Book and its teachings."

What is your agenda Yaakov?

Everyone already knows that without the Jew and his superiority, all men would still be living in caves.

Why are you here distracting from "the discussion of The Urantia Book and its teachings." as Larry indicates is the purpose of this board.

Aren't there other forums for pontificating on Jewish propaganda?

You have some "chutzpah" coming here and telling us Jesus doesn't exist.

Ok. Now I stand with my tail between my legs. I apologise if I have come across as obnoxious. My turn to cowboy up!


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Greetings,

While it is true that Judaism is the soil from which Christianity grew, and true that it borrowed Judaism's concept of the one true God along with its moral code, I believe that Christianity has done more to reveal the character and personality of God than any other religion on earth. The concept of the one true God has grown from a "too holy to be named law-giver to a loving Father who can be known personally. How marvelous is that?

I think we can all thank Judaism for its gift to mankind, but religion is a continuously growing experience. Christianity offers the possibility of a personal God who relates to the individual rather than just a race of people, and that has enormous possibilities for growth in all dimensions. I see that as an up-step from Judaism, in the whole scheme of things. And of course, nothing of value is ever discarded, so the heart and soul of Judaism is here to stay, but so is the good news of Christianity.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Yaakov001 wrote:
Ever heard the term "Rice Christian"? And we brought the very concept of these things to the world. The only way Christians were able to pass them on to anyone was through appropriation of of our TaNaKh into their own Bible.


I'd have to say the opposite is true. The NT stands fully on its own for quickening moral and spiritual sensitivities in *anyone* who really understands and is receptive: consciously, subconsciously and super-consciously. In the context of applying NT advances, it's principally the moral and spiritual weaklings who require the historical background found in the OT/TaNaKh to have the courage to act on the leadership portrayed in the NT. And we are told that that leadership is supported strongly by the Spirit of Truth (a particular mind or soul ministering spirit).

Where missionaries harp on more ancient concepts by too much emphasis on the OT/TaNaKh, confusion arises very quickly, the message gets very clouded and its effectiveness rapidly diminishes. I maintain too, that very much of the influence of the Master's life is not registered directly in the consciousness of those being effected. It's effect has been mostly by osmosis.


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Agreed. I thought about bringing it up before, but hoped you'd tone it down Yaakov. It looks like that great intellect of yours has become a liability and blinded you to obvious truths.

Irrespective of His religious mission and message, doubting the existence of Jesus the man is at the very least, intellectually dishonest. All things considered, it is delusional. If you're going to be consistent, then with your cynicism, you should doubt everything else in all those Holy books you revere so much.

By expressing this ludicrous doubt, all you really end up doing is exposing the underlying insecurities you have of your own faith. For some reason, Jesus threatens you. What better way to remove this threat by doubting its very existence? (denial)

I think deep down you can sense the truth in your heart, but your mind is doing everything in its power to suppress this hunch to fit some intellectual conclusion you have made. Your certitude of mind concerning all these matters ends up revealing how unsure you are of anything. It's a defense mechanism.

Ever ask yourself, sincerely, why did you do so much searching? Why so much studying of religion?

The good news, brother, many of us here share that hunger, and a lot of us were and in many ways still are in the same position. You have found the right place. I think your heart is leading you to the truth but your mind is stubbornly refusing, probably at this point going the opposite direction in a desperate attempt to maintain the order in thought it has carefully crafted over all these years.

No shame in any of that. This is how we grow.


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Agreed Riktaire. Anyone who studies the whole bible should easily discern the evolutionary progress of the god concept from old to new testament. Early Christians were too determined to prove Jesus was of David's line and was the Messiah rejected by the Jews which weakened the gospel OF Jesus so cleverly preserved within the NT which is also obviously radically different than the wrapper it is found within. Christians are too rarely Jesusonian and all too often OT wrath teachers and fear mongers - even invented hell as an aid to conviction and conversion.

A great error, I think, was incorporating the OT at all, as was the atonement doctrine, and the hellish inferno of eternal punishment. Fear became the methodology of choice in Rome...and by Paul. Mix in some popular paganism with fear and you create mass appeal and create power. The OT's placement in the Christian doctrines was its original sin and fear and punishment angles which appealed to the evangelism of the church. Despite its many faults, it certainly has grown in ways perhaps it would not have otherwise. God works in mysterious ways and in great patience. The beauty of the UB is how our history relates to our current state and our future potentials yet to be realized. Those who cherish and grasp the past, because it is the past, miss the opportunity to personalize the relationship with God that has always existed and still does today. While this evolutionary anchor serves purpose for the whole, it has a more unfortunate effect on the each.

The fear of the wrath of a demanding god rather than the fact of a loving parent is a cruel evil of many Christians purpose and philosophy of living which betrays the truth delivered by the 4th Epochal Revelation of God to man - the paternity and resulting family of Father. But Christianity cannot escape the parables and the story of Jesus life....as he lived and spoke....which offers that sublime hope that does reside in the heart of some who live in love and service and kindness. The gospel of love lives within the Bible easily found by any who seek it there....and the contrast between the 3 bibles is obvious. Indeed, more than one god is evolved in the OT over the centuries as well. Evolutionary religion evolves. Judaism and Christianity have both evolved the past 2000 years as well - evolution does not cease at some given point of absolutism but continues to progress. Someday, the religion of the each founded in love for all will become the religious experience of the all in service to all.

8)


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Greetings,

Personally I have to disagree that incorporating the OT in the Christian canon was a great error. It's inclusion was inevitable given the fact that the writers of the NT were Jews, Christianity being first a new sect of Judaism. The NT alone would not make much sense without including the OT. So much of the NT refers to OT. The writers of the NT are always quoting Jewish scripture, not unlike the way they do in the Urantia Papers.

Christianity is a mix of evolutionary religion and revelatory religion. Judaism is also a mix of both in that it contains some of the teachings of Melchizedek as he influenced Abraham. The combination of the two Testaments provide a continuous story of man's growth of spiritual insight. I say this because I'm convinced that everything in the Bible is conceived and written by humans, inspired and otherwise. Therefore it is a valuable record in its entirety and I think it should be preserved in its entirety.

I think this quote says what I'm trying to say, but of course, much better:

Quote:
Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world's history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man's capacity of receptivity. 92:4:1


In Friendship,
Rexford


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Rexford wrote:
Greetings,

Personally I have to disagree that incorporating the OT in the Christian canon was a great error. It's inclusion was inevitable given the fact that the writers of the NT were Jews, Christianity being first a new sect of Judaism. The NT alone would not make much sense without including the OT. So much of the NT refers to OT. The writers of the NT are always quoting Jewish scripture, not unlike the way they do in the Urantia Papers.

Christianity is a mix of evolutionary religion and revelatory religion. Judaism is also a mix of both in that it contains some of the teachings of Melchizedek as he influenced Abraham. The combination of the two Testaments provide a continuous story of man's growth of spiritual insight. I say this because I'm convinced that everything in the Bible is conceived and written by humans, inspired and otherwise. Therefore it is a valuable record in its entirety and I think it should be preserved in its entirety.

I think this quote says what I'm trying to say, but of course, much better:

Quote:
Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world's history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man's capacity of receptivity. 92:4:1


In Friendship,
Rexford


My friend - I am often wrong about much!! And concede your point on this. All 4 epochals are within the combined books, in some form or another. Dalamatia has a very small part - going to the Land of Nod for brides; and the Garden; and, as you point out, Melchezidek or the Sage of Salem. So you are correct that the most evolutionary progress described certainly requires both OT and NT. Thanks!

:!: :idea: :wink: 8)


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